Come Spring I hope to be able to purchase a used dozer.
Recommendations from a heavy equipment contractor: Komatsu / no less than 70 HP.
My budget will hopefully be about $30-$35,000.00.
I will be using it to clear and grade a 100 acre parcel for development, rough in roads and help with the building of a 5-7 acre lake. No real big trees or dramatic grade varaince. This is my property, nothing urgent and not a needed source of income at present. I am trying to “poorboy” the project, paying cash as I go and doing as much as possible myself. Aside from that….it is a blast, gets me away from the office.
We already have two tractors, 2 – 300 gallon field diesel tanks and a skid loader. I think I will be able to negotiate a deal with a local trucking / heavy equipment company to use an excavator to help with the lake and locate the road build up material via his dump trucks in exchange for some of the excavations which he can sell. Soils on the property are good for top soil and select fill, somewhat unusual for this area.
In the words of Hannibal crossing the mountains: “If we can not find a way, we will make one.”
Replies
It's been quite a few years but when I last worked on a large pond job, the federal government had a program which paid a fairly substantial sum of money to the landowner and provided all the engineering for the project. It fell under soil conservation.
Good thought. I will try to do some internet searching.
It is probably obvious that I live in Texas. Hudson Valley? Is that your home, and where is that......New York?
My mom's maiden name is Hudson, and my grand daddy on that side was a carpenter / builder. Thus Carpenter Hudson.
Yep, my home is in the mid-Hudson area of New York State, the western side near the Delaware Valley.
Boss Hog makes some good points about working with the government, to take advantage of the funds available through the soil conservation program. They have some specifics about building a damn which they expect to be followed, but the engineer I worked with wasn't a complete stickler for details. For example, he insisted that we cut a deep key-way under the center of the damn, even though we re-filled it with the same material, a solid clay. On the other hand, he didn't make us stick to a pattern of six inch layers between compaction, while building the damn. He also allowed us to use loaded dump trucks for compaction, instead of renting an expensive piece of equipment. These compromises made it possible to build an excellent damn and pond which serves many purposes, while keeping the budget in view.
It has all worked out quite well. We had the "fifty year rain" event, upon which the damn's engineering was predicated, and there was no damage. The stand pipe was adequate so the emergency spill-way didn't even come into play.
Just remember to read and fully understand all of your obligations, before you sign a contract. You and your heirs will probably be locked into keeping that damn/pond in place for at least fifty years.
Dam? My tax $$$ are paying for your dam? Damn! (JK....G)
Lots of thoughts come to mind. I love doing this kind of stuff.
First - A dozer isn't the most efficient way to move dirt more than a hundred feet or so. If you have a couple of tractors, a pull behind scraper can do this much better.
You don't mention the size of the tractors - They might not be big enough to load a scraper by pulling it. If not, you can load it with the dozer (assuming it has a bucket) and then just dump it with the tractor. That doesn't take as much horsepower.
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The point about looking into cost sharing is a good idea. If nothing else, they may be willing to help with designing the pond dam and/or do some of the surveying. But they also may have requirements which make it more expensive to do what they want.
You may be well aware of this, but a dam that large must be well constructed in order not to leak. Around here that means coring out until you hit hard clay. Then the dam has to have a solid core of clay. Otherwise water will seep through the dam. In rare cases, it may seep so badly that it starts eroding the dam.
Your soils may vary widely - I don't know much about Texas. But fixing a dam is a difficult, frustrating, and expensive proposition.
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Roads have been discussed here before at length. Don't know if you've seen any of those threads. In all of them I harp on drainige. That's the single most important detail to consider in building roads.
Are you expecting the county or other government entity to take over the roads one the property is developed? If you are, check into what requirements they have before you build the roads. Around here there are specific requirements about road with, right-of-way width, and how the road surface is done.
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One more thought on the pond - While you're building it is a good time to think about long term erosion control. You don't want to build it and have it fill up with silt in 20 years.
Around here the soil conservation service has programs for many kinds of erosion control structures. They provide drawings, do the surveying, and pay 60% of the cost of them.
If you do the work yourself, you can charge them a fee per hour for using your equipment and almost break even on building them.
That's all that comes to mind at the moment...
You guys ae awesome, really. I simply wanted some advice on a dozer purchase.
BTers...going the extra mile.
I love doing this kind of stuff. Me too, I am challenged, and having a blast.
First - A dozer isn't the most efficient way to move dirt more than a hundred feet or so. If you have a couple of tractors, a pull behind scraper can do this much better.
Dozer is for mainly pushing unwanted trees and small shrubs,and minimual grading. Not much real grading to do, mostly grading of irregular cow trodden pastures. We have successfully finsihed some of the property (enough for the first home that is nearing completion) with a disc harrow pulled behind the Ford (see below). We then boxbladed with both tractors achieving excellent results.
You don't mention the size of the tractors - They might not be big enough to load a scraper by pulling it. If not, you can load it with the dozer (assuming it has a bucket) and then just dump it with the tractor. That doesn't take as much horsepower.
1 - 35 HP Kubota 4 wheel drive and a 70 HP Ford 6610. No dozer yet. We call "dozers" with buckets track loaders here, dozers simply have a blade. If all works with trucking / heavy equipment guy I spoke of in the original post, he will move soil from the pond to road and other locations in his dump trucks. He has an excavator for digging and loading, and lives a mile from my home and the subject property.
The point about looking into cost sharing is a good idea. If nothing else, they may be willing to help with designing the pond dam and/or do some of the surveying. But they also may have requirements which make it more expensive to do what they want.
You may be well aware of this, but a dam that large must be well constructed in order not to leak. Around here that means coring out until you hit hard clay. Then the dam has to have a solid core of clay. Otherwise water will seep through the dam. In rare cases, it may seep so badly that it starts eroding the dam.
Your soils may vary widely - I don't know much about Texas. But fixing a dam is a difficult, frustrating, and expensive proposition.
The 5-7 acre pond seems to me and the engineer / surveyor to be best located in naturally low area. The dam would be minimual in height, enough to keep too much runoff from draining into the pond. I have dug an experimental pond of 1/2 acre. It hold water well. Natural clay and sand composition 3-16 feet deep, once your thru the 2 -3 feet of sandy loam top soil.
Roads have been discussed here before at length. Don't know if you've seen any of those threads. In all of them I harp on drainige. That's the single most important detail to consider in building roads.
Are you expecting the county or other government entity to take over the roads one the property is developed? If you are, check into what requirements they have before you build the roads. Around here there are specific requirements about road with, right-of-way width, and how the road surface is done.
I have the county issued book on property development, and had the county engineer and county commisioner out for talks. The roads must be blacktoped prior to their takeover. They said as long as I prep according to their specs, I can leave the roads as gravel until I am ready to blacktop. I must bond the roads for a year, own them and then deed them to the county for maintenance. Property drainage is currently under analysis by engineer related to a GPS elevation study.
One more thought on the pond - While you're building it is a good time to think about long term erosion control. You don't want to build it and have it fill up with silt in 20 years.
The dam would be minimual in height, enough to keep too much runoff from draining into the pond, and there is a sizable creek running thru the property where much of the runoff wil be directed. I discussed this with the county engineer and commisioner and they will not maintain the creek at present, but will after conversion to residental property. I bought a railraod bridge that would cross this creek, but I think they will build a bridge for me if it works in the plan. Anyone need a 60' wooden railroad bridge?
Around here the soil conservation service has programs for many kinds of erosion control structures. They provide drawings, do the surveying, and pay 60% of the cost of them.
If you do the work yourself, you can charge them a fee per hour for using your equipment and almost break even on building them.
That's all that comes to mind at the moment...
Thanks Boss, I hope you enjoyed your Memphis trip and the bar-b-que. It is my hometown and I would not want folks to be dissappointed. I encouraged Butch to rendevous at The Rendevous, expecially after seeing post of going elsewhere. I have your picture from the party with Butch.
A dozer is one of the hardest pieces of equipment to buy. You have to be very careful. Under carrige inspection is a must. Make sure it is done by a dozer mechanic. You might think you got a deal and...bam...$20,000. worth of repairs. Have you considered rentals. That is what I did for my little project.
Rental, good thought, but this is not a little project (to me). Buying is so that I can service the project when I want, without continual time restricted efforts. I am sure I can use it monthly if not weekly for a period of 5 years or more. I live on the property. I have covered storage facitlities, a nice shop and two good close freinds who are certified diesel mechanics.
My thought was to buy used from the Komatsu Dealer, assuring some degree of reliability. I bought my Case skid loader from Case. It had been in their rental fleet, and had two more years on the waranty. It may have been abused by renters on occasion, but it was always fixed and well maintained by Case mechanics. It has given me 5 years of great service.
My monthly note on the skid loader (it is paid for now) was 1.5 the cost of a days rental, and equal to 8 hours if I hired a owner / operator. I never have to wait for a rental or owner /operator. I did have maintenance, but it has not been that expensive.
Has anyone heard from Frenchy recently? He works in the heavy equipment business, and would know a lot on this subject.
-- J.S.
One thing you said caught my attention - When you mentioned that "The dam would be minimual in height, enough to keep too much runoff from draining into the pond." That doesn't make sense. The height of the dam would affect how much the pond would HOLD, not how much stuff ran into it. .I also wonder if you've checked the amount of runoff you have INTO the pond vs. the surface area. Around here they recomend 15 acres of runnoff area for every one acre of surface area. That way you get enough rainfall to make the pond run over once in a while, keeping the water from getting stagnate..I did a thread a while back about the kind of "dry dams" they build around here to reduce soil erosion. You can check it out here if you want to:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=56521.1Structures like this could limit the amount of soil and chemicals that made their way into the pond..Overall, it sounds like you have your bases covered pretty well. You've obviously done a lot of homework on this all. .Regarding the dozer - With any piece of equipment, dealer support is important. You don't want to buy something that you're going to have to drive 100 miles to get an alternator for.You're not going to get a great one for the price you mentioned. But you should be able to get something that runs reasonably well. And they hold their value well, so you should get most of your money back if/when you sell it. The undercarriage can be a big expense if it's worn out. That would probably be the most important thing to check. That's all I can think of the moment.
Get to work: You're not being paid to believe in the power of your dreams. [despair.com]
One thing you said caught my attention - When you mentioned that "The dam would be minimual in height, enough to keep too much runoff from draining into the pond." That doesn't make sense. The height of the dam would affect how much the pond would HOLD, not how much stuff ran into it.
The pond we have already dug is in the ground, below existing grade, except some slight build up we did to keep it from too much runoff.
I do not have a "know it all" attitude. All of your input is greatly apprciated. If you are sure it is good I will think about and use the formula you posted for runoff and keeping the water fresh. Good info.
I recently had a pond dug for one of our homes. We used the excavations for the house pad, compacting in 8" lifts with a dozer. It is also in the ground and below existig grade. The water can be seen from the house, and will be beautiful when all is complete.
Some of the cattle water hole ponds around here have dams or levys around them a look like &*1%! They are functional and the dam reduces excavation, but you can not see the water, just the dam or levy. An in ground pond with natural slightly sloped grading surrounding the pond looks great and is what people expect in a residental developement.
I hope that clarifies my post.
Overall, it sounds like you have your bases covered pretty well. You've obviously done a lot of homework on this all.
Yea, I did not just fall off a turnip truck. I have been casually working this property for about 5 or 6 years now. Mostly in my spare time, but it is time to move ahead and get more serious. I have also personally set up grading and drainage for most of our new home lots on other property, with the aforementioned small tractor and skid loader. Many are "estate" lots and several acres.
You guys are beyond my league, I only buy a dozer or such for about 3X scrap value for the fun of seeing if I can get it to run right. Got my 440 track loader for $1220 a few years back, does great for a little 26 HP machine.
As for dams. Have flown over Boss's house a number of times and the area from there to Bloomington or Champaign is amazing in the number of ponds with 20 to 30 foot high earth dams (google on aerial maps and look at central IL). The IL prarie is at about 600 ft and every stream is a little wide well worn valley, hundreds of prime places for a 100 to 200 ft long earth dam for a 5 to 20 acre lake/pond.
Moved from there over 40 years ago, and have seen 20 ft high dams there built out of mostly SAND - lotta berms in the back of them on those. Also saw one wash out in a 7 inch per hour rain in 1964!
Tried to get a permit to build just a 10 ft high dam on 32 acres I have in WA state, doggone near impossible due to the fish spawning - those critters get up to 2000 ft elevation streams only a foot wide. Born 50 years too late apparently.
This was in early 1970s, told the WA state game dept I'd like to import some BASS to stock my pond, they about had a coW><G>
Have flown over Boss's house a number of times and the area from there to Bloomington or Champaign is amazing in the number of ponds with 20 to 30 foot high earth dams (google on aerial maps and look at central IL). The IL prarie is at about 600 ft and every stream is a little wide well worn valley, hundreds of prime places for a 100 to 200 ft long earth dam for a 5 to 20 acre lake/pond.
Moved from there over 40 years ago, and have seen 20 ft high dams there built out of mostly SAND - lotta berms in the back of them on those.
Yea, it is apparent that lots of posting are according to local experience, and what people visualize when reading in simple black and white. I was raised in Tennesse, and many years ago came to a camp here in Texas. I pictured it like the camps in Tennesse, well treed, sloping and varying terain, fresh water lakes and creeks.
I was surpirsed to find flatland, no trees, no lakes or creeks and hot. Some areas of Texas are wonderful, San Marcos, Austin and anywhere my wonderful wife might be. Currently, she is in Hungerford, I love her so much that if she leaves me I am going with her.
Edited 12/8/2005 6:47 pm ET by txlandlord
A very good friend was the lead heavy equipment mechanic for a county shop and in conversation about cats and what problems they have, he rambled on for hours. Unfortunately I can't pass on too much of what he said since it was a while ago.
He did mention that the worst cats were used on a lot of side hill work or tight radius turning since it is so hard on the tracks and the entire kitandkabutle is dependant on the undercarage. It was absolutely amazing how expensive it was to get rebuilt tracks and what their shop paid for individual replacement parts.
Usually he would get all bent out of shape and throw a tantrome directed at the operator when the cat came in for maintanence since how it's operated shows up in undercarage wear. He always looked and acted like the aircraft mechanic in the tv show BaBa Blacksheep. :-)
Cheers,
Don
Good advice.Over the life of the machine, 50% of the maintenance cost can easily be in the undercarriage. And that's with a skilled operator and a good maintenance program.There are $35,000 dozers all over Texas, choose carefully, you can probably do the job you've described and get most of your money back.Sidehill work is tough on a dozer, fortunately you don't see as much of that in Texas as other places.Tight turns and "dropping" the machine in rough terrain is also rough on the U/C.One of the real killers not mentioned so far is lots of time at high speeds in reverse. This is murder on the U/C because of sprocket geometry. Not quite as bad on a high-sprocket machine like the small "N" series Cats, but still not good. On an oval track machine of any brand it's a cause of accellerated wear.You can work around this by a competent an honest inspection by a reputable dealership. All of this wear will be visible.I would also recommend getting oil analysis on all of the compartments. It's only about $15 per botle and worth every dime.Good luck, I hope you have a lot of fun with your project.