Hello,
I am putting sleepers and ply over concrete slab. The slab was poured in the 50’s. I just finished the other slab room and had a hard time with drill bits. I have hammer-drill and drill for 2 and 3/4 screws most holes. I am countersinking holes through the 2×4’s. The drill bits that come with the tap cons have lasted the longest. The pack of tap con drill bits didn’t last as many holes and two of the four only last 3 to 4 holes. Single bits from tap-con were about the same, one lasted the other came apart in a couple holes. The Bosch drill bits (6″) twisted into pretzels, none of them were able to drill many holes.
The irwin drill bit that fit into the hammer drill lasted a long time, the irwin drill bit that went in chuck did about as well as the tap-cons.
I am using 5/32″. The bits for first floor cost close to $60 dollars and I used the bits that came in three boxes of screws.
Is there a cheaper way? Are there bits that last longer? I’m thinking the concrete from the 50’s is going to be harder than the slab I just did(it was poured in the 70’s.
Thanks
Replies
Toss the hammer drill and get (buy or rent) an SDS drill, like a Bosch Bulldog. You won't believe the difference. Drills through concrete like it was wood. Well, almost. ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Red heads come with better bits than tapcon. I like them. maybe also you wanna use a rotary hammer and SDS Plus bits, they rock on, the Bosch seem pretty stout.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
too fast on the rotation speed...
drill is in reverse...
get a Bosch Bulldogg and carry on...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I have Matika SDS 2455 drill. I don't know a bosch drill would be that much better. I will order drill bits from bosch. Keeping the drill in forward, speed down and hold my lips just right how many drill bits to drill 200 3" deep holes?
"I have Matika SDS 2455 drill."
OK, now I am cornfuzzled. If you are using a Makita SDS, how are you using the Tapcon bits? Auxiliary chuck? If you are using the Makita SDS, I agree that switching brands won't do much for ya, but using an SDS bit will.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Are you pressing down hard or letting the weight of the drill (rotary hammer) do the work? The Makita HDR 2455 is the Pit Bull which is probably the twin of the Bosch Bulldog. You messed folks up by calling it a hammer drill. I have eaten up a few bits by hitting rebar. Also can get them hot enough to let the carbide come onbrazed/welded to the bit.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Ditto on what MikeHennessy said. I recently finished a basement remodel where I covered the floor with rigid insul and plywood. Started drilling with my Milwaukee hammer drill and was burning up the tapcon bits at the rate of a couple holes per bit and they drilled real slow. Homeowner loaned me a Bosch drill he had from his business and I was amazed at the difference. Still broke and burned up a number of the SDS bits but that tool was WAY more productive. If I get another job that requires a lot of drilling I'll buy one of those Bosch hammer drills.
Good luck!
your hammer drill will do fine, oddly enough the small concrete bits that come with the tap cons don't do wood, they penetrate to quickly and then the turning action breaks the carbide off or out .. predrill the wood first, then once it's in place concrete drill through the existing holes ..
note #2, most people don't read labels, make depth in conc for tapcons is something like 1 1/4" ....
Edited 2/4/2009 12:58 pm ET by wane
Tapcon Instructions Minimum 1", Maximum 1 3/4"
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I have a cement block foundation, so using plain carbide bit and hammer drill has always worked when finishing the basement, but I went SDS when putting new railings on concrete steps. Bosch is a leading brand and the most likely to find when renting one. Go for it.
Are you drilling through the sleepers? If so the dust may not be gbetting cleared from the hole, and causing enough heat build up to destroy the bits.
You need to drill 200 holes in a concrete slab? A hammer drill is a waste of time and bits. Absolutely use a ROTOHAMMER, like the Bulldog as someone mentioned. I use a Bosch rotohammer for Tapcons and splitdrives through PT and regular 2x plates frequently. I use Bosch SDS bits and just punch right through the plates and on into the slab. No problems. Get SDS bits and buy/rent the rotohammer.
Unless I'm missing something I'm wondering if a Ramset wouldn't be a better option here. if these don't need to be removable a Ramset set up with the right shots and fasteners should breeze through this project.
I have actually never used PAFs (powder-actuated fasteners), so I can't comment with any authority on the subject. But it sounds like a possible bing-bam-boom to me!
I will probably take some sh*t for this from the purists, but it's cheap and it works.
If you go get the Bosch Bulldog everyone is recommending, you will never be sorry. It's worth every last dime, and you can sell it when you are done if you don't need it anymore.
Use a 1/4" bit. Stand on the sleeper (assuming you are using 2x material) and stuff the bit through the wood and get down into the concrete at least an inch, inch and a half is better.
Now take two 16d sinkers, regular old vinyl coated checker head ordinary framing nails, and start them in the hole in the wood together.
Now take your framing hammer and club the nails with everything you've got. A couple good swings max, and they will twist around each other into the hole in the concrete and then bend over and down into the wood.
It's called a Texas Tie, and it is a real lot stronger, faster, and cheaper than any Tapcon.
Only caveat is I would not use regular nails on pressure treated lumber these days, but I don't use pressure treated if I can avoid it, I use cedar or redwood when possible.
When I did commercial concrete work, we used to drill 3/16" holes. We would then put a piece of tie wire in the hole and drive a spike in. We used this to put down 2x's for bracing, forming, etc. It can also be used for a permanent application such as a sleeper. Very strong hold, not as fast as a ramset, but it can be removed if need be.
I'll try that next time -- thanks.
if the nails get damp at all they will corrode....
so much for permenent....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Good point. I usually use galvanized nails, and I usually only use this method for temporary pinning. However if using in a basement with galvanized nails, the corrosion should be minimal. Because if his basement flooded I'd assume he wouldn't be finishing it. Plus once he lays the ply on top of the sleepers and screw everything together, it's not going anywhere.
the galv gets scraped of the nail going in....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Sort of like the blue anodizing on the tapcons (;-)For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
i'd be real comfortable with that and a combo of PL Premium glue
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's a good idea. Even just a little bit of glue and I would not want to be the guy who had to pull that up.
The Makita he has is the clone of the Bulldog.
http://www.makita.com/en-us/Modules/Tools/ToolDetails.aspx?ID=579For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Why not glue 'em with urethane caulk. They're not going anyplace. Only need screws for a twisted one so keep them flat till laid. Keep some 2x4 under all the edges and lay on a bead of same caulk on top as you nail down the ply. Nice sounding too!
I hadn't considered not screwing them down. It seem like everyone screwed the sleepers and I thought that was the way to do it. Once I screw the ply the 2x4s are locked in place. Thanks.
amazing. I had the opposite results. after 4-5 holes, the tapcon bits would be making a hole slightly smaller diameter so that the Tapcon would not go in without snapping off. bUt the bosch bits lasted much longer. I wonder if it is your drilling technique, pushing too hard and fast or wrenching on the handle...
The longer crete cures up, the harder it is, so a slab this old would definitely be harder to do
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I was vaguely thinking that tap-con bits are for rotary use only. Might be mistaken.
I second the use of Hilti or Bosch with SDS bits. However, you might want to check if you will need to go down about 1/64" in size. Sometimes it seems that there is a bit more slop in the hole size with these types of drills/bits.
I know a couple of guys have mentioned pressure on the drill already, but it makes a huge difference in the efficiency of the drill ( therefore it should be easier on your bits). You have to figure out where the pressure sweet spot is. If you push too hard or not hard enough, the rotary hammer won't drill efficiently. You will know when you have the right pressure because the bit will sink in the concrete 2-3X faster and it will seem effortless.
Are you drilling through the sleeper and then the concrete?
When there is a sleeper on top of the hole it can trap the concrete dust. Especially if the sleep is even a bit wet.
It makes clearing the hole harder and the dust can heat up the bit more.
How often are you clearing the hole by lifting the spinning bit out?
You could drill a slightly larger hole in the sleeper to help clear the hole.
It's really important to clear the hole often. If you hear the drill slow down at all lift out the bit immediately to clear the hole.
Hope this helps. I did some work recently drilling for tapcons into brick. Those bricks are hard and abrasive.
I'm surprised nobody has come out with this yet.
Hilti HIlti Hilti
I know they are expensive to buy but there must be a rental shop near you.
I've drilled hundreds of holes in concrete and thrown away worn out masonry bits.
HIlti is seriously so quick and easy you will wonder how you ever got along without one.
I'd offer you mine to use if you were closer but it was recently stolen!
Have a good day
CLiffy
damn man, stolen.
What happened?
94969.19 In the beginning there was Breaktime...
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My guess is somebody took it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Dude, I think you have entirely too much time on your hands lately. I've noticed a certain abundance of pithyness in your posts of late. ;-)
As for me, my list of projects has shrunk so I'm moving an acoustic guitar to the top of the build list. I may be calling on ya for tips.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I wrecked my back a few weeks ago, and can only work in the shop for short spells, then the pain is too much. I can't drive for long either w/out agony. So I pop back in here and wise off to take my mind off it..
Build away, I'll be around.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Small world. My back's murder right now too. Can't do anything for very long - sit, stand, walk, whatever. Happens to me now & again. Always has. I'm hoping warmer weather in the next few weeks will help things along.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
My lower back started killing me a couple weeks back and couldn't figure out why.
Finally one night just slept on the soft couch and damn if it wasn't the firm mattress that was killing me.
seeyou invented the sofa
Of course, we won't go into exactly why you were sleeping on the couch. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I live in a small little town with almost no crime. Many people leave their doors unlocked al the time. I had my pick up backed into my mothers driveway with a few tools in the back. Most of them were out of sight because I built this drawer and shelf gizmo to carry tools. During thanksgiving somebody opened the side window of the cap and walked off with a big plastic coke case that had my loaded tool belt and hilt dx450 in it. I usually unload my tools into my garage but my brother was back in town so I hurried over to visit. When I left her house I even noticed the t handles on the side window of the cap were left opened but I didn't realize why. I unloaded my truck after supper and didn't even notice for a few days the thievery.
You don't realize how much you carry inyour tool belt till it disappears.
I have checked the nearest pawn shop a couple times but no luck.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Anyone using these instead of crapcons...always had problems (stripping, breaking not holding etc.) with those blue pos screws...could be an "installer problem" but it seemed hit and miss with them depending on the substrate, age of concrete, worn SDS drill bit, day of the week, position of the sun etc. Don't even think about getting impact driver out to set them either!!!
Tried these http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/CLB_0_XL_information.htm and will never go back. You can even reverse them out and re-run them in the same hole. More $$ but well worth it.
TN