had a new dryer put in 6 months ago ,worked fine till
it trips its 40 amp breaker now.
is it the dryer working to hard?
anything i can check to see if it is?
had a new dryer put in 6 months ago ,worked fine till
it trips its 40 amp breaker now.
is it the dryer working to hard?
anything i can check to see if it is?
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Replies
Check it with an ammeter, see what its pulling. Check the plate on the dryer, see what it should pull. Breakers can be bad, but most residential Dryers get by just fine on a 30 amp breaker.
tanks jayzog will do and ill get back t o you.
damon
DamonI have to ask did you solve the problem yet? What was it?Wallyo
not yet ,wallyo,have to puller out this week end its realllllly tight in a closet ,ill let you know.
damon
Let us know how it works out. And watch your knuckles on the doorframe, LOL.
Don't get yer bell rung pulling that 40A breaker out of the panel, either....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
you put door bells on a 40 ? :).
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Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
ROAR.
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Read the nameplate, for Christ's Sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If it doesn't match the breaker, you've got quite a job on your hands.
Try it on the "no heat" setting. If it still pops it's probably a bad breaker or a bad connection at the breaker panel. If it doesn't pop on the no heat setting, though, it's still a tossup -- bad breaker, bad connection at the breaker, short in the heater element.
Just serviced one with a burning smell. HO said it was a dead mouse or the like.
The problem was the plug and socket.
Bad connection inside the socket had been heating up and burning the plug and inside of the socket. Not enought to trip but enought to heat the socket and plug.
First thing check the connections and replace if any signs of burning or heat marks.
Quote "had a new dryer put in 6 months ago ,worked fine till
it trips its 40 amp breaker now.
is it the dryer working to hard?
anything i can check to see if it is?"
A dryer should be on a 30 ampere circuit max.,40A is excessive, check all connections from the breaker to the dryer receptacle & pigtail.The circuit breaker needs to be replaced w/ a 30A.
Not sure whether to suggest a appliance tech should look at the dryer as some are quite inept.
If the circuit is wired for 40A, it should handle a 30A load safely. There is no reason to change out the breaker unless it is defective...and if it is, it should be replaced with another 40A (assuming the wiring is rated 40A, of course).
OTOH, if some bozo installer just stuck a 40A breaker on an old 30A dryer circuit, that is a problem. But there's no indication of that from the OP.
If memory serves, he needs 8ga wiring for 40A; 10ga for 30.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
A dryer circuit is 30 ampere not 40......... 40A is a sure sign of a HACK attempting to do electrical work.
What the hell are you talking about? A 'dryer circuit' needs to be rated high enough to handle the maximum load drawn by the dryer that's connected to it. If it's rated higher than that, so what?
Jeezus.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"What the hell are you talking about? A 'dryer circuit' needs to be rated high enough to handle the maximum load drawn by the dryer that's connected to it. If it's rated higher than that, so what?Jeezus.Dinosaur"So your fix is put a bigger breaker in????? So your the Einstein who replaces the fuses w/ copper pipe? Think about what your advocating.
Gonna give you a bad time. Having 21 posts and using the word 'hack' and not having filled in any of your profile (click on your name) quickly brands you as a semi-litterate union person trolling for sites to discourage any type diy. Is that correct?
If not, I apologize. (besides, gotta 'break in' the new guy, huh?)
So your fix is put a bigger breaker in????? So your the Einstein who replaces the fuses w/ copper pipe?
(btw, 'your' should be 'you're', Mr. Webster )
Interesting comment, as I do similar ALL THE TIME when the situation warrants. However, do know what I'm about electrically, and would NEVER recommend similar for someone unfamiliar with all the details. BTW, my 10 ga circuit (thwn in emt against a concrete wall - not to code but zero risk) dryer circuit has a 40 A breaker - I put in the 40 A as the dryer would trip the 30A occasionally, never have found out what would trip it, that after replacing the 30 A breaker twice, putting a astromed recording current meter (set at 20us steps) on the dryer circuit for a few months (naturally the dryer never tripped the breaker then, once off it did again ) etc.
......semi-litterate union person......Uh, that's a real broad brush there buddy, not everyone is a ..... literate.... lettered, hippie EE either.the guy is being a jerk, but that doesn't automatically make him Union ! .
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My apologies to the union folks here.
well OK then :)now get back to reaming him a good one.
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BTW, who you calling a hippie <G>
Back to the original subject.
Almost never let anything go electrically that is a 'mystery'. One of these days will hook up one of my PC connected PICO data logger channels (only have 5 full time) to that dryer, sure would like to see what gives a >30A or short circuit trip every few months)
It may be the OP has the same exact problem as I have had with the nearly new $20 Sears dryer I got at a garage sale, with the folks telling me it worked fine, just tripped the breaker occasionally. Their fix was simply buying a new dryer! Probably not a short circuit or it would trip the 40A also (all QO type).
Did I miss a post where the OP said what brand he had??
CORRECTION, not a sears dryer (wnet down the basement to verify, have a bank of 3 dryers on separate circuits, the other 2 are sears, all the same color almond though <G>)
The dryer that trips the 30A breaker occasionallly is a :
General Electric, model DDE5300GALAD -- would be very interesting if it the same or a similar model to the OP??
Edited 4/26/2009 10:12 am ET by junkhound
see , you got all that cool stuff, for looking at sine waves and parts of sine waves, but I know that there is a whisker of wire somewhere that touches the frame when you wash your Carharts, that or the breaker below is overloaded and the dryer CB just trips because
as most of us know ...... GE really stands for Good Enough ;).
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"but I know that there is a whisker of wire somewhere that touches the frame when you wash your Carharts"I did the software for embedded controls on a system for controlling dampening systems on printing presses. IIRC each tower had one or two printing stations and each printing station and a controller. All of the controllers where links with twisted pair to a master controller.And it worked fine until the presses started rolling and the master could not talk to the remotes. But each part work fine.They kept blaming electrical noise from the presses. Had the company back that sold and installed the equipment. And the electrician that upgraded the power for the new presses. And he replaced grounds and checked everything.
Still had the problem.I was a sub-sub-contractor and only did the software for a company that designed and the built the controller who in turn worked for the company that made and installed the mechanical parts of the system.But I got elected to go on site. What I found was in one of the boxes there was a couple of strands of wire that did not get in the connector terminal block and when the presses ran the vibration would cause it to contact the grounded case.
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William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
...ran the vibration would cause it to contact the grounded case...
Pretty common problem. Looked for similar on my dryer also.
Saw the same thing on a 3500 HP 11KW CAT Diesel genset control box. A CAT guy had worked in the box a year or so earlier and forgotten to tie wrap all the control wires away from the box. After 1-1/2 years the vibration ate thru the paint on the inside of the box and wire insulation of a control wire.
Different CAT guy went out first, could not find the problem in a week of trying!.
Found it in about 3 hours after getting to make another trip.
I once diagnosed a large mainframe-style computer printer with the same basic problem. CE had worked on the thing for three days -- kept replacing one part and it kept blowing out. I looked at the diagrams, ducked my head under the unit and saw where a stray strand of wire was shorting out. Left a note for the CE saying "look here". He tracked me down later and bought me a cuppa.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
I am in the middle of one now.Seems that the thermostatic fan on my Ranger is failing. Don't know what the internals are of the fan but apparently there is a some metal to metal slippage and it generates a lot of electrical noise.For a long time there I would notice some noise in the radio. Typically only when at a few certain location, but not always. And when it did this the noise changed with the electrical load. Brakes on or off would change it, as the turn signal flash, lights on. All this a stop or slow speed.But the pattern did not seen very consistent. Thought that I was bad ground someplace.Then last spring the noise was louder and would happen much more often. Then I had the engine overheating and I could watch the temp gauge go up and down like a windshield wiper. It was that fast when I would accelerate or slow down.It turned out a stuck thermostat and the fan. After this was fixed not a sign of noise.Now this winter I started hearing the noise again. And loud, but it only happened 2 or 3 times.But I noitce that the engine was slow to heat up and when it did it cycled from cold to hold again with the engine speed.But it only did that a couple of times.Now the other day it started the cycling hot again. But not much noise..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I spent about 8 hours on a similar problem involving a broken solid wire on a Swiss built press.
it had broken right at the termination on a relay in a cabinet, and opened the stop circuit every time the press ramped up, of course it rang out fine when the press was down, drove me nuts since the circuit ran through about twenty palm stops and LS all over the press, but I had help from the mostly Spanish speaking press crew with deciphering the German prints.
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Those electrical things will drive you nuts. The pickup coil wiring on my ford van would open up when it got high vacuum, then it would start working again when the vacuum dropped. Blew off a muffler once doing that.
I done some crazy things, but blowin a muffler isn't one of em FORD huh ? .....D Over Rebuilt Dodge OK just kiddin.
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but I know that there is a whisker of wire somewhere that touches the frame when you wash your Carharts
Sounds about right. Our last drier began to pop breakers and wasn't heating as much as before. When I finally got around to troubleshooting it, I found that a small nail managed to slip in and get welded from a point on the heating element to its aluminum case.
Bob
You know, I used spend all day playing electrician with hardly a scratch or a zap, one time I come home, the igniter is broken on the dryer, I goes and gets a new one, throw the instructions away and start taking the old one out and get my bell rung because I didn't unplug the thing like it said to in the instructions........it has nothing to do with this problem but someone somewhere is reading this and about to do the same thing.
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OK, I'll bite. Why would someone have three dryers? Are you making a few extra bucks taking in laundry for Octomom? Maybe you need that extra capacity for the final step in your money laundering enterprise? Perhaps you ran out of space in the attic to dry those crops from the grow-light room? :)BruceT
Why would someone have three dryers
1 DW does NOT like to go up and down stairs.
2. There is space for them.
3. Only use them in the winter (solar clothes dryer during sunny/warm weather) so no lost energy.
4. Have had one original one (a sears) for 44 years, have gotten attached to it after learning how to replace the rollers or belts in 5 minutes over the years, the elec. coil has been brazed at burnout points too many times to count, just want to see how long it will last or can keep it going - only ever oiled the motor!
5. Got the 2nd one (GE) for $20 at a garage sale,
6. got the 3rd one from 'free' sign on the street, only needed a roller replaced (the newer ones have plastic vs. steel rubbre support roller bodies, one of those had failed.
7. Needed another 240 V outlet anyway........ for welding outlet near that location occasionally .... etc.
"So your fix is put a bigger breaker in????? So your the Einstein who replaces the fuses w/ copper pipe? (btw, 'your' should be 'you're', Mr. Webster )""you're" is a contraction for "you are" while "your" means 'of or belonging to you."I say, fix the grammar, and that breaker will stop tripping. [I had to find some way to connect this potentially irritating reply to the original subject.]
So your fix is put a bigger breaker in????? So your the Einstein who replaces the fuses w/ copper pipe? (btw, 'your' should be 'you're', Mr. Webster )
"you're" is a contraction for "you are" while "your" means 'of or belonging to you."
So your fix is put a bigger breaker in????? So you're the Einstein who replaces the fuses w/ copper pipe? "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
"So your fix is put a bigger breaker in????? So you're the Einstein who replaces the fuses w/ copper pipe?"Yes, that's the correct use of "your" and "you're." [I hesitated on replying, as both my original pickiness and this are quite OT]
that was the closest I could come to having something to add to this thread!
- weak, I know
Huck (not an electrical Einstien, more like an electrical special olympian)"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
So your fix is put a bigger breaker in????? So your the Einstein who replaces the fuses w/ copper pipe? Think about what your advocating.
What I'm advocating is that you learn to read before you shoot off your big mouth.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
A "standard" residential dryer is 5 KW, & a 30 ampere branch circuit is more then sufficient for them, a 10-30R or or 14-30R receptacle may only have a 30 ampere overcurrent device MAXIMUM see 2005 NEC Table 210.24. The union slur is "Scab" which is used to refer to non-union workers.
lighten up pal, I don't care for some of the digs at Unions either, but you need to back off !!so consider this a warning.
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usually when i get a big scrape and a scab, eye usully pic it off <g>
do you roll it up and flick it ?
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Yo, Hardcore--
All you're managing to do is piss people off and persuade them that you're a flaming Ahole. Maddog is union, so am I (CSN), and so are a lot of us here. So why don't you take yer high-amp attitude and put a fuse on it before somebody who doesn't know any better starts to think that all union members are jerks. Yer not exactly being a good poster boy for the IBEW or whatever union you pay dues to....
I suggested you learn how to read before you opened yer big pie hole because you have so far conveniently failed to notice that we're talking about the circuit, and not about what's plugged into it.
The circuit consists of the wiring, the overcurrent device, and the outlet(s). It does not include the load.
Do I need to repeat that in plainer language, Mr. Edison? Or did you get it this time??
40A breaker + 40A-rated wiring + 40A-rated outlet = 40A Circuit.
You may safely connect a 30A load to a 40A circuit...but you may not connect a 40A load to a 30A circuit.
Nor may you use a 40A breaker in a circuit wired with cable rated for 30A service...but there is no indication from the OP that that's the case.
In this case, the OP mentioned that his 40A breaker is tripping on what is (theoretically) supposed to be a 30A load...which led a number of people to suggest he check for loose connections or whiskers because the arcing that can occur under such circumstances could easily cause a momentary overload sufficient to trip a 40A breaker.
You, OTOH, started hollering about a 40A breaker being too big for a 30A dryer, and insisting that he change down the breaker to match the load.
Duh.
In the first place, that isn't going to solve the OP's problem unless the loose wire happens to be at the breaker and gets tightened up during the changeout process.
But in the other first place, that statement of yours is about as bright as saying that a 15A breaker is too big for a 'bedroom circuit' because there's only three hundred watts of load on it--lightbulbs and clock-radio.
Oh, and BTW, Jimmy Hoffa: A 'scab' is a union member who crosses his own union's picket line to work during a strike. At least get yer insults right, will ya?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
An' hear eyt thot eye wuz tryin' too youze a reemer <G>
appologies to you in particular for implied relationship of most union folks to the object of our original derisison.
Any misspelleed wurds iaz for foks to look up aka Mr. Webster.
appologies to you in particular for implied relationship of most union folks to the object of our original derisison.
Yah, well, I know I don't come off as a 'union guy' most of the time--what's the point??--but I've actually served as shop steward for our unit a coupla times when nobody else wanted to take on the load...like during contract negotiations.
An' I wear my CSN hat anytime I see an inspector comin'....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
A Big thank you to you, maddog, junkhound, bill, rez, and everyone else that has participated in this thread.
I just came back to work after my 4 day weekend. Found this thread and read the whole thing.
Roar!
I got tears from the chuckles.
Welcome to the Monkey House!
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
kinda like the good ol days.........the ones from a few weeks ago.
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kinda like the good ol days.........
the ones from a few weeks ago
Giggle, snork, grin....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Your the one who has got your panties in a uproar, I was not slurring any union members or at least did not intend to insult them which is why I referred to "scab*" as a slur and the term "hack" goes across all trades, union or not, I did not bring any comment about organized labor originally BTW......I was wrong about it's use/meaning won't be the 1st nor the last time that was wrong.How about we get back to the subject at hand instead of sniping about petty things?
"A dryer circuit is 30 ampere not 40......... 40A is a sure sign of a HACK attempting to do electrical work."Only A hack would use a circuit that does not conform to the appliance requirements.You have no idea of what the dryer requirements are.NOT ALL DRYERS WILL WORK ON A 30 AMP CIRCUIT..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
The breaker is sized by the wiring in the circuit. Not by what the use at the end of the circuit is.
The breaker is not installed to protect the served device. It is installed to protect the wiring to that device.
The device will only pull the watts it needs to operate.
If the wiring is sized for the 30-amp load you might be right. But, if the wring is sized, for whatever reason, for the 40-amp load, the breaker should be a 40-amp breaker.
There is a 50-amp breaker feeding my air compressor in the shop. The compressor draws a bit under 20-amps. It is on a circuit, the previous owner installed for an arc welder which apparently drew close to fifty amps. Are you suggesting that I shuld change out the breaker, because I only draw 20-amps?
The wiring in the wall may be good for 40-50 amps, but the wiring in the appliance/device may not be. The breaker size should be the MINIMUM of the size the wiring allows and the size the device requires for correct protection. (Though, in cases where a hard-wired device contains integral overload protection the breaker is allowed to be undersized for the wiring.)
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
The wiring in the wall may be good for 40-50 amps, but the wiring in the appliance/device may not be.
In which case the appliance will not draw that much. So?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Motors and A/C's are a whole different subject then a residential clothes dryer, for example (this drives home inspectors nuts) if the nameplate data supports it, you can use 12 AWG w/ 40 ampere fuses or circuit breaker on a A/C unit & be fully code compliant with the installation. Motors have similar rules, but the dryer rules are not the same as either of those.
Yes, dryers are mostly resistive load, and motor are inductive loads. That doesn't change the fact the circuit should be designed backwards: load, to receptacle, to wire size, to a breaker sized to protect the wire, and receptacle. The breaker is not intended to protect the load. It is designed to protect the wiring, so you don't heat up the wire and cause a fire. If the circuit is wired for 40-amps, then the breaker should be a 40-amp breaker. That is what I was taught. You, in your initial posts, have somehow made a leap to the conclusion that a 40-amp breaker is wrong, based on your assertion that a drier is only a 30-amp load. Yet the original poster made no reference to the gauge of wire, which is what should govern the breaker size. Yet, you have continued to argue that somehow the breaker was an error on the part of someone, with no evidence for your opinions given in your posts. And, no evidence in any of the posts that indicate to most of the rest of us that it is in some way a bad thing, that the drier is on a 40-amp circuit. There are a lot of highly knowledgeable people who frequent this forum, and have for years. Their posts number in the thousands. At this point you have very little credibility. You haven't earned any yet, and still haven't begun to demonstrate the depth of knowledge and experience required to gain any. Want to win me and others over? Give us a code reference, which directs us to under size a breaker for the circuit it is intended to protect, in order to protect the device plugged into the circuit.
there is nothing prevent you from down rating wire to suit the load...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I'm with you, downrating the wire = no problem.
#8 wire, 30 amp breaker = no problem.
Or, #6 or #4 wire still no problem - well maybe, not sure what the maximum wire size is that will fit in the 30a breaker and receptacle......I'll read da tags and get back to ya' on 'at.
However, if the dryer is blowing a 40a, the situation will not improve by installing a 30a ------unless the existing 40a breaker is defective.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
if the dryer wants 30A coverage...
do so...
a tripping 40 has a problem...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
There can be a issue in oversizing conductors see 250.122(B)2005 NEC
(B) Increased in Size. Where ungrounded conductors are
increased in size, equipment grounding conductors, where
installed, shall be increased in size proportionately according
to the circular mil area of the ungrounded conductors.If one is using NM cable,say for example, 8/3 there are 3 8AWG conductors & a 10AWG grounding conductor and it is a 30A circuit, one would be violating that section because the EGC is only 10AWG & the others are 8 AWG. even though 10 awg is the correct size for that cable, it has not been increased proportionately.Maybe we need to go back to the beginning & ask what is a "standard" dryer circuit? And why is there some sort of "standard"? My answer is 30A & there reason is so when moving to one home or another if the home was wired for a dryer it will work + not having untold numbers of receptacles to have to deal with, although the code change removing the approval to ground the frames of cooking equipment & dryers to the neutral has left **some** of the argument about "interchangeability" by the wayside.
"If one is using NM cable,say for example, 8/3 there are 3 8AWG conductors & a 10AWG grounding conductor and it is a 30A circuit, one would be violating that section because the EGC is only 10AWG & the others are 8 AWG. even though 10 awg is the correct size for that cable, it has not been increased proportionately."By that same section, NEC Table 250.122, EGC size for copper wire is specified as 10AWG for 30A, 40A and 60A, so the up-sizing paragraph must apply only for circuits under 30A.http://www.electrician2.com/calculators/t122_122.htmlBruceT
Table 250.122 is referenced under 250.122G, Feeder taps. "equipment grounding conductors run with feeder taps shall not be smaller than shown in Table 250.122 based on the rating of the overcurrent device ahead of the feeder but shall not be required to be larger than the tap conductors"
So this doesn't really apply directly in this case. Sometimes sections posted can be misleading, this may be one example.
"Table 250.122 is referenced under 250.122G, Feeder taps. " ...
"So this doesn't really apply directly in this case."Table 250.122 is also referenced under 250.122f and 250.35; probably many others. I think table 250.122 is the rule applicable anywhere that equipment grounding wires are run in raceways or NM cables.BruceT
>>By that same section, NEC Table 250.122, EGC size for copper wire is specified as 10AWG for 30A, 40A and 60A, so the up-sizing paragraph must apply only for circuits under 30A.<<
Thanks. I knew somebody would find their book and get "the rest of the story".
Still have not found mine -- that is the most elusive of all the books I own! Lets see it's red, 8-1/2x11 or so, big letters on the front 2005 NEC, shouldn't be that hard to find.........
I must admit the question is somewhat confusing when looking at copper NM cables -
15a: 14/2 or 14/3 = #14 sized ground.
20a: 12/2, 12/3, 12/2/2 = #12 sized ground.
30a: 10/2 or 10/3 = #10 sized ground.
Then it mysteriously changes when you get to #8 or #6......
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"Maybe we need to go back to the beginning & ask what is a "standard" dryer circuit? "The problem is that we don't have any idea if this is a standard dryer or not.I remember a question of the how to hook up a specific stacked washer/dryer system. And downloaded the specs. I think this that it was European. IIRC one option tied the dryer and washer together and they used a single 40 amp circuit.And there are laundrymat dryers that take 100 amp circuits.And I don't know, but I would not be supprised if there aren't some smaller commercial dryers that might be closer in size to a residential and take a 40 amp circuit.That and a few other basic questions need answering first. All of this speculation is gets use no where.Many, many times I have had to diagnois equipment problems remotely. And the techs on site will start by dump a bunch of "facts" and steps that they have tried, which often just muddies the waters.It was like pulling teeth and I had to fight and fight with then to starting back at the very start and doing one thing and get the data on that then give them the next step..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
> If the circuit is wired for 40-amps, then the breaker should be a 40-amp breaker. That is what I was taught. So you're saying that when they replaced our AC they shouldn't have downsized the breaker from 30A to 20A since they didn't downsize the wire at the same time??? Even though the specs for the AC unit called for a 20A breaker?The wire (with one notable exception) must be sized AT LEAST as large as the breaker would require, but it is always permitted (within reason) to be larger. The thing to be wary of is mismatching the breaker and the outlet (on non-hard-wired circuits) since the outlet "advertises" the circuit capacity.When a device like a dryer comes with, say, a 30 amp pigtail, that implies that the unit is designed with the assumption that it is protected with a 30 amp breaker. Plugging the unit into a circuit with a larger breaker violates that assumption and may create an unsafe situation.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
>> So you're saying that when they replaced our AC they shouldn't have downsized the breaker from 30A to 20A since they didn't downsize the wire at the same time??? Even though the specs for the AC unit called for a 20A breaker?<<
Go you one better.
My newish A/C, added for an addition was very specific in manufacturer's installation specifications.
Namely : Install minumum #10 awg wiring with a maximum 20a breaker.
This insinuates that if #8 wire was present, it would be perfectly acceptable so long as it was protected by a 20a OCPD.
I assumed it was specified to minimize voltage drop, especially on start up. We installed some years ago, #10 wire + 20a breaker - works well!
I tried to look up his code reference, only have 2005, could not locate my book - wanted to see what was in A and C of the section quoted.
It would seem to me that the quoted section does not influence the question at hand since assuming 8/3 Romex with #10 awg ground; the #10 ground wire is still "full sized" for a 30 amp breaker. Greater than 30a through "oversized" hots would cause the breaker to open - regardless of the wire size.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 4/29/2009 12:02 pm ET by JTC1
Yes, it should also be noted that sometimes a larger size wire is intentionally used to reduce voltage drop on long runs. Absolutely nothing wrong with this.Anyone saying that the breaker must be sized as large as the max capacity of the wire is short a few wire nuts.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
This is where we are diverging.
The breaker is there only to protect the wire. Not the device.
Every body keeps saying that the breaker is supposed to protect the device, and that is not why it is there.
If your device needs a protective device, it should have it's own. Most devices don't have protective devices designed in because they don't need them.
Read the install instructions for an air conditioner.Do you think there's a built-in breaker or fuse in an electric range?The code says that devices shall be installed in conformance with manufacturer's specs. If the specs give the breaker size then that's a code requirement.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Do you think there's a built-in breaker or fuse in an electric range?
Yes. Lift the control panel of a typical electric stove and you'll find a whole series of screw-in fuses.
Generally, most loads do not need to be protected by the circuit that serves them. Lightbulbs, clock radios, televisions, etc., are typical examples of loads that are almost always plugged into 'standard' 15A household circuits with a capacity far greater than the appliance will ever draw. Downsizing the OPD to match the actual load would not only be impractical, it would be ridiculously impractical. And unnecessary to boot, as the Code clearly indicates.
If, OTOH, a specific appliance is an exception to that rule, the mfgr's nameplate and/or installation instructions clearly state that...and in compliance with the Code section already quoted, you do what you gotta do.
But those are exceptions to the general rule that the breaker protects the circuit, not the load.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 4/29/2009 6:16 pm ET by Dinosaur
Technically you are correct, but I want a dryer on the correct rated breaker. What's the use of protecting the wiring, when the clothes dryer catches on fire from an overload drum, or a jammed motor? Also on air compressors, my compressor had a head pressure unloader clog up. It would not start up correctly, just strain and buzz till the breaker tripped. I'm happy I didn't have a 50 amp breaker on it.
Now this is what we're talking about!
The flavor from the Breaktime of old, unbridled dealing with issues of construction instead of polipoop threads.
Now we're getting somewhere.
Cheers
Polipoopers usually don't venture out of the tav.
Glad you like it. Bill's doing a good job of keeping it going and maddog gettin' oh mah case also helps..........
Cant have newbies com'in in here and destroying some hillbilly diy flavor. Usually don't bother responding like that but just got off the plane from France, and sleep deprived?
BTW - Forgot to take early pix of the 'new' shed.
Need another shed thread started. With 'rot in place' sill plates <G>
Gotta go to UK right away Tuesday for 2 weeks, but will take pix of the new shed in 2-3 weeks when I get back and put the diy trusses on the box walls. Boss will surely love the connections - ha!
Wait till RFM2 sees some real HACK work on shed construction <G> -- with buried old frayed and taped up extention cords for power feeders with bent over 8d nails for cable staples - anything at the end of a plug ain't covered by code, is it ??
Guy wants to give me an old 8x8' manufactured metal shed like they sell at the bigboxes.
Figures to move it in one piece since it's so light.
Half tempted to take him up on the deal and stick it out of sight in the woods to store my windows.
be Hey, sliding doors you have to duck down to for entry
have you checked the data plate for load ratings or looked in the intructions the recommended breaker size???
RTFM....
existing within specs - time to hunt down a fault...
look for a loose or bleeding connection...
faulty breaker...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
then suspect the dryer....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Damon
I have no idea if this has anyting to do with it and I welcome Bill H to step in by all means.
Is it wired four prong plug or three prong plug.
The reason I ask is, that you have to rearrange the jumper on the terminal block depending on which cord you are using.
Thinking about it I doubt it will cause the breaker to trip but, you still want to be sure it is done the correct way.
Check into what breaker is recommended, most are thirty but some may require more.
Install the correct breaker for the dryer see if it still trips.
Heres a thought You don't say how old the wiring is. But is there a 40 for a reason say the dryer and someone added a electric heater put both on the same circuit?
I have some thing like this on an apartment building I maintain. There is one breaker and it is a 40 or 60 can't remember now but that one circuit feeds a range and a Hot water heater.
Yes I know bad it has been that way for 40 years or so, we are in the process of a new service to clean things up. Problem is the first sparky abandoned the job. We go to court on friday, He walked off for no reason known to us will not return our calls and letters. He had done other work for us and we paid real him very timely. The owner advanced him money on this job for those that might want to know.
Sorry to vent it has just been going on over a year.
Wallyo
Edited 4/27/2009 11:34 am by wallyo