I’m exhausted trying to follow all the arguments about abortion, Iraq and social security in the Tavern, so I thought I would start a thread on something REALLY controversial — how to finish inside drywall corners. I have a guilty confession to make: instead of using the 5 inch taping knife to finish inside corners, I use one of those special knives with two faces. It works real slick, leaving an almost perfect corner. When I try to use the regular taping knife (like Ferguson’s Drywall book – published by Taunton – recommends). I always mess up the side I just did. Then I go back and do it again, messing up the second side. And so on and so on.
So how do you pros do it: with a plain taping knife or with one of those sissy two-faced knives?
Replies
I have to admit that I am a terrible with the mud. I can hang rock with the best of the them, but I end up wearing more than the walls. And for some reason, I always end up with the ceilings.
Anyway, my guy does one corner at a time. Lets it dry. Then the other. He uses a 6 inch knife first, 12 inch second. two coats.
He laughed at me when I asked about the corner knife you use...thanks
Nap
I have inside and outside corner blades, but I never use them. I think mudding has to do with personality, and patience. Ive never had trouble taping except old homesote wallboard, or what ever they call that. The 50s wall material that doesnt have a taper.
Anyone can scoff, but the way I figure, however you get the job done if the product is great the tool doesnt matter.
-zen
I use 6" knives on both sides. When It dries I run a small bead of caulk through the corner. Comes out Beautiful.
When you tape the inside corners the traditional way you only do one side at a time.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Done it both ways. I have a real little inside corner knife that actually comes in handy every once in a great while, but predominantly I go 4", 7". One side at a time helps. While we're on drywall. If you get a chance, try that new Mud Max. Man that stuff is slick. Between that and the reformulated all purpose, mudding is almost fun again.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I'm currently doing lotsa mudding/taping, skim coating, rooms with lotsa corners, use the following basic methods, depending on particular corner and personal mood:
1) in 90 deg corners, step 1 is to bed the tape, using 5 in knife. let dry, then 1a, using 5 in blade, do 2nd coat on both sides of corner and very quickly thereafter use special 90 deg blade to smooth corner in one full swipe preferably. let dry , clean up/sand or feather with walls.
1b would be to use 10in or so knife to add the second coat, one side at a time, feathering with side walls.
2) doing cathedral ceiling with angles much wider than 90 deg, so special 90 deg knife can't be used. I lay the tape (step 1 ) as usual. Then I do the 2nd coat as in 1 b above, or as follows: using a 12" knife, with the edge PARALLEL to the corner, I start on one wall, run into the corner and out of it to the second wall, feathering in one smooth motion. small 1/2" overlap between passes. let dry then clean up the small ridges and sand a bit. This results in very soft corner & works for me when I decide to skim coat the whole job.
As Zen said, patience, personality etc... YMMV.
I'll admit I have the sissy corner knife in my tool box but I havent used it in years. I gave up on it. I use a 6 inch knife one side at a time. I like to spring the knife to feather the edge, bending it with pressure on one side. You cant do that with a corner knife.
Yeah, this DIYer does one side at a time -- do one side, let it set, do the other side. I tried a couple of different "sissy" corner tools and never got them to work very well, and never could use a standard knife with both sides wet, given my tremor.
I've used the inside corner tool with a fair degree of success. After bedding the tape with a 6" knife, I use the corner tool to lay in a 4" second coat on both sides at once. That usually dries so there's just an edge on the outside of the 4", and I taper that with a smear of mud with my 6" knife, light sanding and I'm done. I work in the corners just 3 times, and it usually comes out ok for texture. If I was doing flat walls, (which is very rarely these days) I'd consider the one-side-at-a-time method.
I'll admit my preference for the corner trowel started with small repair/patch jobs using 20-minute hot mud. If I have one piece of drywall to fix, I really like to get in and out as quick as I can, and the inside corner tool helps me do that.
I just picked up the Taunton Drywall book. I've never done drywall, tape, cmpd, etc so it should be interesting when I start this project Thursday.
The book explains just about all the techniques presented here. Paper tape, mesh tape, doing one side first then the other on an inside corner etc. Its pretty good.
I also think I'm going to sleep at a Holiday Inn Express Wednesdy night too.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
"Yeah, this DIYer does one side at a time -- do one side, let it set, do the other side"That this the way that I was taught, by a real pro. I think that he showed me on inside corner. I had about couple of more to do and he finished the whole room while I finished the other 2 inside cornres.But I still had problems.The next ones I an going to try some of the noflex stuff.
My brother-in-law, Ziggy, can finish an already taped inside corner with a 5" blade perfectly every time, one shot. It is all skill and technique, mud on, up and down a few times, 2-3 minutes at the most, done. Guy is good.
I used to fight getting good inside corners - never had the patience to wait for one side to dry before doing the other.
Now I use No Coat Ultra Flex light rather than regular tape and have no problems at all. The the corner bead gives me something solid to work against so as not to gouge one side while smoothing the other. I use this on all my outside corners as well - have become quite fond of it.
Here is a link for anyone that wants more info http://www.no-coat.com/new/index.html
For outside corners I use paper tape on top of the corner bead. Its a little extra work but they're strong and they never crack
Ok...what you need here is a good contrarian response.
Now, I'm the first to admit...I don't do drywall finishing for a lving. However, I'm currently on on my 3rd major drywall job...3 floors of a 2800 sf house. I've done it several ways, and I appreciate that the real steady-handers can do the 6" knife per side with drying between sides....but my hand simply is not steady enough to keep the corner perfect....and I DO NOT TEXTURE...something I consider to be a cop-out.
So, I exclusively use a corner knife. Now, there are corner knives and there are corner knives. Unfortunately, I don't have my favorite with me (it and my others are down at the house and I'm at our first home this week). So I can't give you the name and dimensions. But I've used several, and I like the Stainless knife wth the wide 5" blades that has about a 100-110 degree flare and whose blades are fairly stiff.
My technique is to apply mesh tape to all corners (and joints) first....its adhesive...using a 6" knife to ensure it is fully 'tucked' into the corner. I then use a 6" knife, fairly quickly applying the first coat to each side, then bed this with a pass of the corner knife, creating about a 2-3" swath that just covers the mesh (I use the yellow stuff so its easy to see). Then without sanding, I go back when things are fully dry and using a 10" knife, fill the inside corner from the inside out, making sure my swipes fill out 6" at least. Dipping my corner knife in water, I then slowly draw down the corner at about a 30 degree angle, using just the right amount of pressure to create a constant mud depth. After one pass, if I've set it up correctly, the corner is perfect. And although its certainly possible, I simply cannot imagine how a corner like that can be obtained with a 6" knife. Anyway, I finish by using a flexible 6" knife and go over the outside mudline, tapering it back an inch or so. Minimal sanding is required to feather it once dry.
The only challange here is doing this where 3 corner lines come together, as the corner knife leaves markes on the other two inside corners. I just draw out of the insider corner as best I can, making sure the corner point is perfect, then sand out the ridges once dry, and do a final fill with a 6" knife and a final shaping with my foam sanding block. Its a bit more labor, but I haven't found an easy way to do it.
Ok....let the flaming begin.....
BruceM
Coved Inside Corners...And now for something completely different...try coved inside corners sometime. I have been matching the radius of the bullnosed outside corners with a stiff rubber spatula I purchased at a drywall supply. Coved corners are not too difficult to master and they provide a nice custom look. I start by quickly taping the corners with the "sissy knife," then floating in the cove on the second coat. I do charge an extra $10 per corner--it uses more mud, of course, and as a result, these corners take longer to dry. Sanding the coves also takes some getting used to. I use a sanding sponge bent to match the radius and a damp cloth to smooth things out. Using the cove technique works great on 45degree inside corners and kneewall to rafter transitions--even if all your other inside corners are done the regular way.
Contraversial question on how to tape drywall corners.
No one has answered your question yet as you want to know about finishing both sides at once . Im gonna put on a Blues Boogerin class on the technigue.
Alright guys , listen up.
I just got done reading a couple of threads about bathroom remodeling and small jobs . I found out a lot of the regulars here finish their own small jobs . In a small job, this system is critical that you learn it to get the job done. There is not time for flex or running one side at a time . There is no place for the 90 degree tool except to sell homeowners. Its bulky , slow , doesnt dip its own mud and is not flexable because no corner runs 90 degrees for 8 feet or more. Throw it away and get down to business.
There will be a side to the corner that was hung first . It of course bypasses in therory. This side is your" run side ". The second application forms your" fill side" as it wont tightly fit . Get this down in your head .
The first pass down flowing mud on with any flexible 4, 5 or 6 inch Hyde taping knife you wish to use, will be ran on the" run side" first. With the flex knife simply wipe off the out side half in a flez motion which a 6 inch knife will leave about 3 to four inches of mud. That one pass levels out the mud also . Next , comes the fill side and you apply that mud on a knife angle that runs into the corner to fill it up with out bothering the run side too much. Angle it off as well and level it in that pass . It doesnt have to be perfect yet.
The mud has been applied on both sides filling any cracks level. Both sides are tapered on the outside.
Now ,.... like driving a car using the steering wheel, """""youre gonna drive that knife by the handle """"" . I just gave the most important tip to furthering your carreer as a finisher. You treat that knife the same way as you would a quality paint brush cutting in trim. A lower handle to the wall leaves mud and raised up it starts taking mud. The Hyde knife is side tapered for running a corner straight down. NOW, if you are getting mud past the knife point , angle out , by bringing the handle only away from the corner as the knife it self stays . [just like a car in relationship of the front wheels and the steering wheel] Mud will flow out leaving the corner thin and slick. The next pass is the last and is the bread and butter play. It finishes the fill side against the run side for a "glass pass" . The edge of your knife will have a true corner to run by and the knife will fill under it. Run the knife down the joint "driving it ". This pass normally takes mud out of the corner , but you will be watching and respond with the handle like you do a steering wheel
If a little mud over laps , leave it and chip it after its dry with your 6 inch knife . I always have an 8 inch on a handle of 18 inches thats used for boogering or wipeing down tape on the ceiling from the floor. Wonderful tool for reaching up or down with out bendig or over reaching and boogering.
Time is a factor . Run the mud as wet as you can handle it and hurry in the aplication . The water will be leaving the mud all the time its on the wall . If you wait too long , it wont work near as well . Youll have trouble if ya dont geter done pretty quick.
Tim Mooney
i generally end up taping most of my jobs, but I don't do any big additions anymore- just kitchens and baths.
I like using my corner trowel, and I can leave a finish good enough for semi-gloss ( at the least ) with 2, maybe 3 coats.
I'll duck now for all the flack.
"I'll duck now for all the flack."
<G>
No flack from me Shep . No offense meant for you using your corner trowel . Im just trying to teach a hot lick that makes money. I could go on and have you saving money on houses and additions. Plus pocketing the change. Some people buy books and some people dont . Same with this. I woke up this morning at 3 oclock I think by the TV I left on. It was talking about a course and books sold on Ebay Marketing . All I had to do was get up and write the 800 number down , but I didnt do it . It was only 40 dollars and who knows? But I passed and went back to sleep. Happens.
Tim Mooney
OK, here is my "certain to be controversial" inside corner Taping method.
my teckneek has been gleamed from experience, watching the REAL tapers and trial and error.
step 1) Apply mud to corner with a corner roller.(fuzzy pointed roller that gets the mud on both sides)
step B) cut to lenth, fold and embed Straight-Flex tape
Step III) knife S-F tape into corner w/ 6" knife one side at a time.
step Four) feather out mud from edges of tape onto walls (both sides first day){you will not mess up adjacent corners because you are not covering the tape, just feathering}
step Epsilon) after drying touch up alternating sides with 8 or 10 or 12 inch knife whatever you are using on the flats.
step 6 touch up remaining sides, let dry, sand,and VIOLA you have a stringed intrument, or VOILA you have a taped room
Corners will not need caulk because the mud is behind the tape.
I am no production taper by any stretch of the imagination, but this method lets me get good smooth inside corners in three applications.
OK critique away, I'm all for learning to be a faster taper.
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
"OK critique away, I'm all for learning to be a faster taper."
http://www.tapetech.com/tools.htm
Ive got a full set and their very fast. Especially inside angles.
Tim Mooney
Those are some expensive tools there my friend, and I know many pro tapers who don't even have those. However if you are a pro taper, they may be worth it. I tape quite a lot and the way I do my corners is to loosen the mix a bit with water when you mix it with the paddle, then I take a corner roller and roll on the mud (you can do several corners at a time since this goes so fast), I then pull out a piece of tape from my tape roller that's hooked to my belt, crimp it in the middle and stick it up there by hand making sure the corner is well beddied into the corner of the rock. Then run the corner tool once down, done. After it's dry I hit it with a 6" knife both sides then run the corner tool as the last coat. The spackle is never any wider than the 6" and looks even and nice with very little sanding.
I did painting and drywall off and on for 30 years . Its always been in my arsenal if I needed to make money. I worked commercial work doing finishing alone the last couple of years before my heart attack a year and a half ago. I do several other things like remodeling , repos, building , & rentals . I used to hang as well , but left it for lack of money in it . Finishing and painting have been my money trades all these years for short time paydays. Buying repos pulled me away from working everyday.
Those tools are 20 years old and have been rebuilt a couple of times. The bazooka cost 1000 dollars to rebuild 15 years ago when I dropped it while running a ceiling with it on stilts . 1225 the second time from wear.
There well worth it if you run tape for a living. I wouldnt buy a new set now unless I bought a set for a crew, and would probably rent them from
http://www.ames.com
Help wont take care of them and these people will fix them and give you another in one day. I have seen comanies rent them and hire a crew . It pays more than running a set by your self.
Tim Mooney
Tim- I'm gonna print out your directions and try it out on my next job
but I'll still bring my corner trowel :)
I did a post like that here a couple or three years ago. One thing I stressed is that :
It doesnt make any difference how many tools you have or how much work you do, at what level . The primary goal is to handle a 6 inch knife first. By that I mean be able to do all its functions and be able to fly with it. Once youre comfortable with it , its like eating mash potatoes. Theres lots of things that are "cut in " with mud. You can buy tools that replace every other knife but the 6". When running the Tape Tech tools , the 6" is a big part. You learn to spread mud and learn flexing and feathering first with a 6" before you move on.
A 6" knife is to a taper as a hammer is to a carpenter. Learn to be its master , and it will reward you.
Tim Mooney
I couldn't agree more about the 6" knife. If you're really good, that's all you need. My only knives are 6", 10", and the inside cornering tool.
My basic drywall tools are a 6" knife, a 12" curved trowel, and the corner tool. I have more, but these 3 take care of 90% of my needs
Where did you learn to use a curved trowel? And when ? Those date back before knifes. They were here in the early 60s when noone was using knifes at least around here. Its still a respected hand tool . I havent ran one in years.
Tim Mooney
I learned plastering before I learned to tape. Using a curved trowel in taping has the same feel as plastering because the tools essentially are the same. I have my old curved trowel still but never use it anymore to tape, just the two knives and my hawk.
my dad used one- I learned from him.I'm not sure where he picked it up- probably some plasterer/ rocker he knew. I started as a carp in '75 ( OK, as a helper ), so I'd say sometime in the late 70s.
I like it 'cause it leaves the center a little higher; then when the compound shrinks, it's closer to the final level. And I find it easier to leave a feathered edge with it. I've got a 14" curved, too, but the 12" is my favorite.
I hired a young man that had always worked for his father . He was probably 30 when he came to work for me and his father by that time must have been like 60. That was 25 years ago when I hired him . He ran a curved trowel on all the butts . He had told me his father had taught him to run a trowel on all joints . He had what looked like a full set of trowels . He ran several that were straight. It seems like a more natural motion to the arm and hand than a knife . I cant run a trowel on drywall at all . I can get along finishing concrete with them with out any problems . I think trowel men found a home in the dryvit business . Looks about the same as a plaster worker.
Tim Mooney
Plastering is the same motion as dryvit and stucco, so the plasterers do it. It's just different materials.
About trowels: You say you can't use them (if I understand you correctly). I have difficulty with them, as well. The Taunton book says to draw the trowel over the joint, and since the trowel is concave, this automatically feathers the mud. I find that it takes a huge efftort to do this, and the trowel tends to skip. I think I have better luck feathering with a 12 in knife.
The other day I watched a guy laying on a skim coat with a trowel, using smooth, fluid motions, leaving behind a very smooth surface with no grooves or ridges. His trowel must have been convex, not concave, to achieve this, right?
It depends on which way you look at it- convex, concave.
basically, you should be putting down the mud a little heavier in the center, and almost nothing at the edges
I didn't realize they were supposed to be difficult to use. Glad I didn't know that when I was learning.
Oh, and to keep from leaving ridges, you gotta keep your trowel clean. Thats what your pants are for.
Edited 2/15/2005 5:33 pm ET by Shep
Edited 2/15/2005 5:33 pm ET by Shep
I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread because I'm such an amatuer at taping....
About 7 years ago, I spent a couple hours dodging the cold watching a Brit do some finishing. He was the best I've watched and I've seen a lot of them. This guy worked alone on big customs and make 100k per year, every year. He was fast and he was good.
He used a 4'' x 12'' square trowel and a hawk. The advantage of the 4 x 12 is that you have the 4" side for the inside corners and small touch ups. He literally could walk at anormal speed covering the simply tapered joints. He did the inside corners one side at a time.
Two year ago, I spotted a different taper using an "inside corner" taping tool. Since I had 10000 sf of board to finish (I'm sometimes crazy enough to do something like that), I bought one of these tools. It cost me about 90$ and is only good for bedding the inside corners, but it's well worth it. You just slop on the mud, press in the tape....you can do about 100' to 300' (I would do all the inside corners of each room) of this before you have to pick up the bedding tool. Since it's on a pole, you can easily clean swipe the entire room by walking on the floor in about a minute.
The tool is probably up north so I can't take a picture of it. It basically is two hardened blades that follow a small rubber "v" shapped wheel. The wheel leads, bedding the tape and the blades scrape the mud tight while cleaning off all excess. The guy that was using one said it was a common tool in Florida, where they's use this tool, then spray. Up here, he said they were hard to find. I found it right away at a nearby pro drywall distributer that sells drywall and drywall tools.
blue Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
As long as Im boogering , Im glad to have the host of boogering here. <G>
"Two years ago, I spotted a different taper using an "inside corner" taping tool."
If this is the tool Im thinking about it is a type of glazer? Its called somthing that I cant remember , but we will call it a" runner" for now.
Everyone thats interrested , be sure to visit the site I posted to familiarize your self with those tools. Im gonna try to help the guys doing small jobs and bigger ones that dont call themselves finishers. Im gonna start now;
Taping takes most of the time on a hand finishing job if some equipment is not used. Before you leave here , you dont need a bazooka , so hang on a minute.
Some one mentioned a mud roller and thats one . Theres an old hand finisher I know that thins a painters bucket of mud and keeps 2 inches or so in the bottom like you would be painting with a brush. He uses a "barbecue mop" like a paint brush. Ive tried it and its pretty fast because it coats both sides of the angle at once . It works the best if you can mud a joint for the full distance and then set it down and run the tape in the inside corner. This should cut your time down.
My favorite "hand taping " tool is the banjo. Its an aluminum box that dispenses " mud and tape " at the same time . These 100 dollar tools "will " double your time if you are applying tape by hand. My favorite banjo comes from goldblat and is the banjo name . I have several and one favorite of many tapers comes from ames which is a longer taper that holds more mud , but it doesnt get close qaurters like the goldblat. I run the dry tapper but some run what is called the wet taper which waters the tape as it dispences. Its heavier .
Im going to post some times that I know, to give you some understanding why you are reading this posting. Then you can decide to get bored and leave if you are still with me.
My fastest daily time ever recorded running tools was done with two laborers. We ran two boxes of 500 foot rolls which is 10,000 ft . It took 8.5 hours. Its been done by others faster , but I did have laborers. I dont think I was fast . What I could do was run full speed for 10 hours like a brick layer never breaking motion. I wasnt fast or as fast as others I hired, but I out worked them with fluid motion that didnt tire me all day. Learn fluid motion. Any brick layer will tell you the same thing.
Normal work days , normal speed, just working
By my self ; 10 -500 ft rolls in 8 hrs. bazooka
10 to 12 - 250 ft rolls in 8 hrs banjo
8 250 ft rolls hand taping , before I bought a banjo. That is considered fast while the tools above is not. Not one roll in an hour, but 8 in 8 hours .
If you are not fast by hand , then you can expect tools to help as above. I didnt post times to brag , I posted to help you understand the differences. There will be a greater difference if the subject isnt fast with hand tools , because equipment fills a bigger gap . I have trained labor to run a banjo and he made me money after the first week. He would not have been able to hand tape and make money in a full month if ever.
Two tools I have in the first site I posted , I run with the banjo. The corner roller beds the tape and the glazer wipes it clean . Those two tools greatly aid the banjo.
Now , why am I telling you all this ,........The banjo is inexpensive and cleans up in 1 minute under good water pressure and can be stuck in a five gallon bucket of water. I do always clean mine every day , but its not necesary unless you have a wood handle that I delete for a strap. A banjo can at least double your taping time for just a bathroom and clean up quickly and throw in the box with other tools .
If you do additions or more than you might want to add a nail spotter , box for glazer and pump.
Tim Mooney
Edited 2/15/2005 10:47 pm ET by TIMMOONEY52
Tim, you're probably thinking of the same tool...the glazer or runner or whatever.
I also have owned a banjo for many years, I'm so-so at using them. I'm probably workig with too stiff of mud.
I like the idea of painting the slop on the corners.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Javier , I look like a monkey trying to frick a football with a Hawk and trowel. I dont even own a hawk . Somebody left a curved trowel in my box or I woulnt have that . Its not mine but Ive got it. Ive had different sized crews and they normally use their own hand tools if they are hand finishers by trade. I always liked to have one hand finisher at least. Some of those guys used trowels , but mostly knifes. Im a knife finisher and what they call a "tool " finisher . [they will say , I run tools] which means automatic tools. [but dont ever say automatic or they will know} <G>.
So any way if youve got trowel questions , ask Shep or someone who uses them. <G> I have admiration for the trowel talent , but its quickly becomming a lost art in the drywall trade. Knifes and trowels are too slow for turning off work. But ,...................... They are in style doing remodeling or small jobs . And , the talent wont be lost there . A good hand man is still needed on big work running corners and short stuff the boxes wont get . I also wipe down behind my boxes too which is good exercise for getting some blazing speed going. I have made fast men by putting them behind my boxes and asking them to fly and keep up. They get used to going at high speed with knifes and building up their wrists and arms. They learn how to cover a lot of ground at the correct angle.
Tim Mooney
The best finisher I had ever seen used a hawk and throwel on his seams..they were perfectly flat, perfectly straight and hardly any sanding.
On inside corners the best tool is the double corner tool in which the tip flexes..last week I sanded a small job for him as we were in a rush. I only had to sand where the knife ended.
How I do them is to use the Wet & Stick tape. Just dip it in water, and in 15 minutes you can coat it. The 6" knife is too big, I like the 5 incher..hardly use a 6" anymore. Favorite is the 8 inch..you can do all with it even finish seams. Basically all you want to do is to fill in the beveled edge on a seam and an 8" can do that too.