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I just finished reading the E-Myth Contractor. Its the follow up to the E-Myth. It was very good but left me wanting more. I can see where I am doing some things right and others wrong. I was wondering has anyone out there taken the E-Myth Mastery program they offer? Was it any good and did you get a substantial return on the investment of time and money? What did they charge? What did you get in return? Do you reccomend it?
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Wow Howard I didn't even realize there was a book out called the E-Myth Contractor. It's apparently brand new. I'm going to see if I can round up a copy and I'll be glad to let you know what I think.
On the same subject did you by any chance read Peter Bush's post on the JLC site regarding his take on just what is a "business"? For anyone who hasn't read it you can find it by going to http://www.jlconline.com and clicking on Forums and then clicking on Business Strategies (not Business Systems forum that's a different one all together) and then scrolling down to
b The "Practice" and the "Enterprise"
Sorry about the long convoluted path description but bookmarking sections or articles on their site doesn't work since they made changes there. You bookmark something and 24 hours later it doesn't work. I'd be interested in hearing what you and others here think about what he wrote too.
I'll e-mail him tonght and ask him to post it here so everyone doesn't haven't to follow that insane path. I'd post it myself but not without his permission first.
*jerrold .. there was a lot of discussion of the jlc thread in this thread.. mdf user "Business, Hobby, Trade, or Worker Survival?" 2/21/02 5:08pm
*Yeah I read his post. I was distinctly underwhelmed. While the post is interesting in a pretentiously academic kind of way it totally misses the point as far as I'm concerned. He strains at knats to differentiate between kinds of business and misses the main thrust. That is learning the fundamentals and building a business.What many of us miss when we read posts like that, or buy their books, or somesuch is that their books/seminars/tapes Are their business. They generally aren't successful in any other way than marketing their pseudo expertise. In so doing they do demonstrate one talent that is essential for the con man/manipulator.They have a talent for expanding the minutiae and the obvious to make it seem somehow profound. For those who are unsure, insecure, uncritically searching for a better way, etc this is manna from heaven.If you want real life info to improve your business skills take some accounting and business classes at your local community college or small business centre. Or, if you can learn that way just read the books and do the practice problems in a good course.Most of all trust your own good sense and intellect. That will tell you that if someone can't put it in your language to help you they are probably trying either to impress you or scam you, or both.
*Somewhere else on this site in a very interesting discussion I can remember someone wrote regarding the difficulties involved in communication that> "…often accurate communication is hindered because the parties involved don't have a common knowledge bank….. Further that the answerer often takes refuge in purported status as a expert and so doesn't help the questioner figure out what question to ask." > "The end result is a communication difficulty that takes up a lot of time and effort and may result in a failure to communicate useful information to either party."> credit to the author: FredB "Deep Sea Salvage" 2/11/02 6:51pm)I thought that was a remarkably brilliant accurate analysis of the communication problem that seems to go on this site 95% of the time. Fred with regard to your comments and criticism of Peter Bush’s The "Practice" and the "Enterprise" I think you are a victim of exactly that. I could be wrong but it seems pretty obvious to me that you haven’t read either the E-Myth or The E-Myth Contractor. It’s obvious to me you were not involved in any of the 269 posts that revolved around the concept of E-Myth on JLC either. Consequently you are missing the boat entirely regarding the value of The "Practice" and the "Enterprise".Where your discussion Business, Hobby, Trade, or Worker Survival did a great job or helping define the difference between Worker Survival, Trade, Hobby & Business and the definitions you yourself wrote were well thought out and well written. (Please don’t apologize for writing long posts when they are written well) Peter’s writing about the "Practice" and the "Enterprise" goes beyond all that to the next level.To tell you the truth while that was very interesting and important to a lot of people who frequent this site from my perspective, from my point of view I thought,…who cares? Definitions of Hobby, Trade, & Worker Survival don’t mean much to me anymore. I worked that out years ago and I’m on to the next level. I’m working on developing my Practice in to an Enterprise. While I enjoyed reading your discussion that’s why I really had nothing to add there. I was intersted in something a little bit more developed and closer to where I am personally and where my business is going.Grasshopper you still have much to learn.Interesting too. By my count the score so far regarding the value of The "Practice" and the "Enterprise" is:6 or 7- Raves or complete agreements. 1 -Putdown An undetermined number-Undecided Howard,…I picked up the book last night just after reading your post and just finished it an hour ago. I’m in total agreement with you regarding "It was very good but left me wanting more". More on why I think that way tomorrow. I’m on my way out to the theatre for the evening.
*I don't doubt some of the people out there selling a 'message' are just shucksters. But the E-Myth (heard about it here of course), took me out of my own experience and made me look at things a completely different way...that's rare, and invaluable. Don't agree with all of it, but it was valuable to me. Didn't know about the contractor one...I'm sort of interested, but I doubt I would get as much out of it as the first one.
*The biggest problem I see with books, threads, and information about how to successfully run a business is the fact that people actually try to follow the information item by item, line by line, and step by step. Ya just can't do that.If ya want to get all that you can out of the info, you need to read it, and understand that it is only information that CAN be useful. It is not a step by step guide, but merely an exchange of information that can be very beneficial if you use it right. By using it RIGHT, you are actually opening your mind to the possibility of change, the realization that change can be good, and the start of a thought process that allows you to actually see what changes can be beneficial to you and your company, and when those changes can best be implemented. The info should cause you to think. Period. Just think. Once you have started to think, the ideas and strategies will follow. The possibilities and ideas will start to flow like a waterfall. Each and every contracting business is unique. We share some common ground, and common ways of doing things, but setting up your business for the most profit potential, and geting the most out of your business is something that YOU must decide how to do. All we can do (as contributors of information) is get you started on that thinking process. Just a thought...James DuHamel
*That is an interesting post about my comments on the Advise Industry and E-Myth in particular. From the author's tag line and the way above normal effort he went to in an effort to discount my comments I would say Mr Hayes is part of that industry. So, doing what you can to protect your income is fair, I guess.As for specifics, I readily admit I haven't read e-myth. I did read all the flurry on JLC concerning it. What was being said fit all the landmarks of just being another advise industry product. Therefore, although I didn't know every word that was going to be written I knew what its' content was. This is the same way that when SHGLaw sees a legal brief, or if he is a litigator, a particular presentation he knows what is coming next. Or, how certain it is that if a ball is dropped it is going to fall to the earth. You don't have to see it happen. Your experience tells you it is a certainty.In what I've posted I've attempted to give practical, easily understood, and achievable advise. In that line the reality is that the philosophy and methods of running a business aren't very exotic. Nor are they a big secret that only the most knowledgeable can understand.Many people make an industry out of overcomplicating and over emphasizing the academic. That just takes advantage of the reader's anxieties and human desires. Something like: "I know you aren't successful, read this, follow this checklist and you'll succeed." "What, that didn't work for you? Well you just didn't understand this hidden thing that only I have figured out. Buy my book and enlightenment and wealth will be yours." "Still, you don't have all your deires..." I think you get the idea. Have a desire to succeed, define where you are and who you are, have something to sell, get the tools to do the job and press forward. As Jim points out successfully running a business has a large "winging it" component. You've got the trade and business administration tools but no one can tell you exactly how to apply them in Your Business.
*Fred, I’m surprised at your apparent attack RE: Peter Bush and his post. Alluded to Peter is your comment: “In so doing they do demonstrate one talent that is essential for the con man/manipulator.” What a slap in the face for a man who had dedicated his professional life to helping his peers!Another comment of yours about Peter: “He strains at knats to differentiate between kinds of business and misses the main thrust. That is learning the fundamentals and building a business.” I too am occasionaly "underwhelmed" , but to the person who cannot read, we must first teach to read, eh?Differentiating between types of businesses is only one part of the entire “business” equation”, as any business person who knows his salt, knows. So what his post is about “is” learning the fundamentals and building a business, because each of the type he mentions grows for/at different reasons, if in fact the owner does want to grow.Not every one who aspires to become a business person has the capacity to grasp the nuances of business ownership, so for those people, indeed that “minutiae” you mentioned, in fact become important parts of the learning process.Jerry Hayes was right in “discounting” your comments since your comments were, while appearing to be done in a manner of offering advice, were offered sarcastically, and insulting to those who you feel are beneath your own capacity to learn - or teach.The next time you decide to advise or offer advice, do so respectfully, understanding the plight from where the receiver is coming from, and without slapping them simultaneously. Then perhaps, your advice might be taken “positively”, and even heeded and appreciated. In the several years I’ve been fortunate to be included in these forums, I’ve yet to meet or see the scam or con artist you alluded too, only those seeking advice and those offering it.Antagonism and sarcasm for those knowing less than you, less able to grasp things as fast as you, and maybe even just plain dumber that you, does not justify insulting them - nor their supporters. As in any academic class, it just means extra time spent on the “minutiae”. It’s a fact of teaching.BTW, a substantial number of those books you also attacked, articles and other types of media are in fact authored by the professors who moderate those same business classes you espouse others to take. I guess when they write however, their true nature emerges as scam artists.In other words, offer what you can, but be nice doing it - please.
*Fred:I was one of the one’s that discounted a lot of what was said on the JLC discussion thread (not the book, but the discussions) about the E-Myth Book, I think Sonny finally got upset and sent me a copy of the book. I read it, I thought it was your typical rah-rah Zig Ziglar type management book, but did have some good stuff. I was not as impressed as some other proponents, but it wasn’t a bad book. I agree with you that more everyday, practical advice and discussion means more to me than the theoretical stuff. I am also one that gave Peter kudos for his thesis about the same topic recently, and even though I did compliment him for his succinctness and clarity about the subject, I still do not get much from these type of discussions.I also agree when you say:“If you want real life info to improve your business skills take some accounting and business classes at your local community college or small business centre”.I’ve learned enough about home building accounting that I could probably be an accountant, and it’s the best thing I’ve ever done for my business. I learn more talking to other successful builders than I ever doing reading these theoretical type books. Just one person’s opinion. So if you like these type of books, fine. I am not criticizing you if you do (Sonny, Hayes etc). Allan
*Allan, I never criticized Fred's advice, of which I would agree. To many seem to forget that for a lousy $25, the cost of a book, one had the opportunity to obtain at the very least, "ideas"or concepts to consider. And if s/he reads a business article on the Internet, it's free. I learned most of what I know from books, articles and the school of hard knocks, but that was because these forums did not exist then.We all look for advice, ideas, etc. from many sources. Posts made on these forums are joust one of those sources, and they nor their authors should not be criticized in a manner in which Fred's post was. In any industry we have the exceptionally brilliant and those that the opposite extreme. Ditto for their sources of knowledge. Should I do as Fred did to those I feel are intellectually beneath me? Should I add to an apparent "aura" here so should a newbie want to ask a question, he will refrain for fear of being told anything less than taking a few college courses is stupid and not worth posting?I too have been underwhelmed with some of the questions, statements, etc., on these forums. I just keep my mouth shut, rather then make fun, be sarcastic or embarrass someone.Peter reads a lot. Jerry reads about a book a week, or used too. In other forums, we, and a few others, often got into some heavy discussions. Sometimes, I wanted to call one of them and say: “Boy. You’re a real nitwit.”, and I’m sure they felt the same thing about me. Civility prevented us from doing so. And yet, we learned from each other, or questioned our own attitudes about an issue, or changed a previous opinion, or came away with the question: “What if...........?Communications are moot unless one has knowledge to incorporate in the communications, to add value and/or validity to them, or to generate “intelligent” concepts. And they are important for someone to just consider this or that. And these posts are one form of communication.One of the reasons for that particular issue Peter posted about is because even Linda Case had a column about the question of a “practice” vs a “business”, so if the issue was good enough for Linda, whom I respect dearly, I think it good enough for Peter to talk about it.Besides, there are tens of thousands of people who have taken those exact courses that we all suggest, and many have acquired business degrees, yet somehow managed to get their names on the list of the roughly 80% small businesses that failure within the first 5 years, and of the remaining, another 80% or so during the next 5 years. Duh! Obviously, something is still missing that these “stupid” people still aren’t getting. So tell me. Just what minutia is not important when considering the running of any business?As to those scam artists that write books and do consulting, are that so much different than what we do, when we do “consultative selling?” They perform a service to their respective clients, as we do to our own clients, and they have jerks just as our own industry has jerks, and they have scam artists just as our own industry has scam artists - or are we the chosen few?I love books. They make me think and realize how much I “don’t” know, so - I’m stupid. Maybe I should sign up for Business 104. Nah. I’m arrogant enough to think that I can teach it!
*reminds me of robinson crusoe finding the footprint in the sand...these books are immensely helpful for some....but if robinson crusoe were on ipa nema.... what's another footprint.. myself, i glean a lot of helpful things from most of these books and from most of the posts....as fredb and i have recognized... we do have a different outlook.. sort of water and oil... anyways fred.. good thread.... bad post.. better if you build up instead of tear down...but keep 'em commin.. i'd rather read your stuff and get a little bent out of shape than not read it.. always gets me thinking
*Gee whiz guys just because I am critical of this guy's approach that doesn't mean I am insulting him or putting him down. Can't we have a discussion of ideas and their value without automatically making it personal? From the exchanges on this forum I thought most of us had gotten beyond putting our hearts and feelings on our sleeves.I know lots of very nice guys, some of them my friends, whose professional ideas and the way they make a living I disagree with. So, I'll accept that we have differing opinions on the value of this book and those like it. I do not accept that my comments either insult the person, put them down, or work to elevate me or anyone else. To put it another way; one is professional and the other is personal.
*Fair enough, Fred. Want me to send you a copy of "The E-Myth Contractor" to peruse?
*Fred; how about you read the book, then state an opinion?
*I havent read the E book, but will say this anyway:i Read as many self help, technical, inspirational, accounting, carpentry, etc books as you can.Some will be helpful, some bad. You won't recognize the bad ones, if you've never read a good one.Thanks for all the opinions, pro or con. blue
*Thanks for the offer Sonny. But as you posted yourself in another thread Time Is My Most Important Asset. There is no way I can read everything on the bookshelf. So, I have to be selective and use my experience and the reviews to decide whether to read something, or not. Something like your job decisions you've posted about so often.As for reading all the self-help books you can; well I don't subscribe to that either. One of the primary goals of many of this kind of book is to take advantage of your lack of confidence and knowledge so they can sell you books and programs. Selling books, tapes, etc. and programs is their business, not helping you. Oh, it is OK if they help you in the process but that isn't their primary purpose.So, if it is a technical book, like many published by Taunton, and I have a technical need I buy, read, learn, and perform. If it is a management/business book I turn to material from my local small business centre, or to academic textbooks. That way I know I'm getting the best of the available information from people who are in business to educate.IF I have spare time I read case studies by people who have run successful companies and are making some more money telling us how they did it. Even though many of these are a bit one-sided they do give a unique perspective and are worth spending some of my most valuable asset, Time.
*Good for you Fred! I'm glad you relish your Time.
*It is sad you have never experienced the very things you delight in bashing.I could say a lot more but will refrain at this point.