Starting the design part of a loft conversion. Half of the 3rd floor. I have had some brief discussion with the plan examiner and he says that the egress must meet code. Ok. But the building is about 100 yrs old and the windows don’t meet modern code. They are large enough, and the sill height is low enough, but they hinge at the bottom and open in … hoppers I think they are called. And … two walls don’t have windows, and the client wants to keep the other two walls for the view from the living area. The building is all masonry & concrete, and fully sprinklered.
Any ideas?
“When asked if you can do something, tell’em “Why certainly I can”, then get busy and find a way to do it.” T. Roosevelt
Edited 8/16/2005 7:53 pm ET by FastEddie
Replies
The NFPA Life Safety Code 101 does not require rescue windows in a fully sprinklered apartment building of less than 4 floors ( I think).
You need to do a thorough code review to determine whether or not the rescue windows are actually required, or just a knee jerk reaction of the code official.
If you determine the windows are required, it should be a simple hardware change to switch from the hoppers you have to a compliant swing away casement type window. Not every window would require the switch, just 1 per bedroom and 1 per living area. Since this is a loft, that may mean only 1 window need be changed.
Consult an architect in your area. They should be able to help.
first check out what code your plan reviewer is using and then check the egress requirements. NFPA 101 is not used everywhere. Check out the sprinkler system to see if it meet the requirements for residential use (quick response heads, 1 inch lines, FDC etc.) Usually NFPA 13 is used but NFPA 13R is allowed for 4 stories or less.
Bman & firedude ... it's a 6 story building. How does that change your answer?
Part of the issue also is that the client wants the bedrooms to be placed on the solid walls, so the public area of the loft will have the view.
And in this case, it's a "loft" in name only. She wants a 3 br, 3 ba fancy place.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
6 story building would require NFPA 13 instead of allowing 13R - other "big" question is what's the occupancy of the rest of the building? Is residential actually allowed? If client bought "condo" unit in building, then condo refers only to owership, not occupancy - usually building inspector determines usage. If the building is "office" condos, then residential probably isn't allowed. Mixed occupancy buildings usually require the most stringent requirements be met for all occupancies. I'd look pretty close at that sprinkler system - here in RI, lots of existing sprinkler systems installed years ago (Grinnell Co, sprinkler "inventor", headquartered in Prov, also, lots of insurance co.s required systems) that don't meet any code requirements/designs since they were installed before the developement of NFPA 13 - most have no fire department connection (FDC) and have undersized piping (3/4" instead of 1") - also, heads have a "lifespan" - good chance those heads have to be replaced just because of age, if not application - residential requires quick response heads.not an "undoable" project but lots of little details -hope this helps
Egress from the third floor of a six story building assumes that there is an existing fire escape doesn't it?
His pictures look like a commercial building that is being converted to a condos. Doesn't that remove it from most grandfather clauses, and require complete compliance with current code?
Just curious. I have no idea, and you seem to be well versed in this area.
Dave
typically any change of occupancy triggers compliance with the most current code for that occupancy but..... some AHJs will allow variances for some things (something I'm not a big fan of) - real problem is as mentioned earlier - the architect/builder/contractor/whoever isn't familiar enough with whatever code is applicable, something gets done/built and then the AHJ is supposed to sign off on the "mistake" - making the guy signing legally (as well as ethically/morally) responsible.in terms of fire escapes, the first thing to understand is that it's an escape, not a means of egress - easy way to figure the difference is would you use it every day - egress for daily use, escape for "escaping" - the other thing with fire escapes is how well maintained are they, what's the condition of the mounting/fastening mechanism, where do they terminate (are you going to land on the sidewalk, dumpster or that new fence that was installed a few years ago?) another consideration of second egress is how far is it from the first egress - NFPA usually figures it as more than 1/2 the distance of the diagonal of the "room" - in other words, usually you can't have two doors on the same wall and say one is the second egress - and typically the second egress would use a different stair if possible.it does get kind of involved but once you get going with it, it's not too bad - just most guys are familiar with building codes (BOCA, IRC,SBC ) and not fire codes and NFPA standards (excepting NFPA 72 aka the National Electrical Code - NEC) - and some architects figure if they are complying with the local building code, then they're set.sorry about being so "long winded"
Thanks.
You are so right about the IRC and NEC. I have both, but the whole of the NFPA is a tough nut to crack. Membership cost and code books cost are prohibitive for me.
I can, and do take classes on the NEC and can get interpretations on IRC issue from my inspector. I think I would need a class on just how to look up stuff in the NFPA codes, and then another class on nomenclature and language.
I have a friend in the fire protection business, and he has mucho training, but still gets sideways of the state fire marshal on NFPA code issues.
It is always good to have you explain things in plane language, no matter how long winded.
Dave
It was originally a candy factory, that lasted only 10 yrs or so. Then it was bought and occupied by a large aerial mapping/surveying outfit. They were there for many years. Sat vacant for a few years, then a rich lady bought the whole thing and had it converted into 100% residential. She occupies the top two floors.
Ok, so what does NFPA 13 allow for? Are there any exceptions to the bedroom egress windows?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I talked with the development architect today, the one who did the design for the shell and site woirk. They recognized the problem early on, and got a writtren variance from the city ... bedroom do not have to have any windows.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
that answers your bedroom egress but what did they do with the sprinkler system? I'm not a big fan of variances for things that can be done - variances should be for those things that are structurally "hardships" - like changing stair designs (winders to full treads - very difficult in existing buildings) - not things that are doable but expensive.I'd also be looking at what is required for fire alarm systems, emergency lighting, rated separations for the living space from the common areas and egress areas.
There are two stairwells, on opposite end of the building. The building is about 115 ft long. Actually, one stair is about 25 ft from the end. There is an old metal exterior fire escape, but it's on the other end of the building. And the window where it goes to the top floor has been bricked up.
The steps in the stair wells are a bit odd. The risersheights vary a lot, and not all the treads are the same depth. And some treads slope toward the nosing. I heard that the city considered making them tear them out and put in new ones to code, but apparently it didn't happen.
One hour demising walls are required. I have seen what looks like new pull stations, and new emergency lightiong in the elevator lobby and stairwells.
What's the Q on the sprinklers? There is a fire dept connection at the street.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 8/17/2005 11:19 pm ET by FastEddie
I'm guessing by the "Q" you mean questions on the sprinkler system - big things I would look for would be types of heads and temp ratings - when they were installed/replaced - spacing/location of lines - size of the line (smallest dia should be 1") - supply line size - size of the line in the street and pressure - type of system (wet/dry?) - possible obstructions (ceiling mount A/C close to head - blocks "spray" - partition walls too close to heads) - should have somebody (P.E.?)evaluate the whole system I'd also be looking at any penetrations between floors and how they're going to be sealed - expansion foam may work but it's pretty limited in terms of fire resistiveness
should have somebody (P.E.?)evaluate the whole system
Yeah, check with some FS installers (look under Fire Protection in the yellow pages, or Fire Safety); they can give you a good run down on what you are looking at with the present system.
Locally, I can get the licensed tech who gets the FM signoff on the installations to come have a look. He'll look for the same things the FM looks for & tests (like rust in the c/o, wrong head, blanked riser or stem, etc.)
You might want to ask the FD to send someone over for quick look-see while it's still open (usually that's just making an appointment and being there to meet them). I'd be preparing myself to bite the bullet and reopen the access to the exterior F/E; that may well turn out to be non-optional. better to know that now, than after the finishes are in and coping with a rejected CoO.
A private residence for the top two floors is a different kind of variance than for four floors of multi-unit below. I'd be willing to bet some of the variances are specific, and not blanket to the whole building. Might be, with more than one resident, that stairs & the like "suddenly" have to comply. Yet another good reason to involve the Fire Inspector or Fire Marshall's office now.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I don't know anything about your Qs, but will say that the company I work for built a low rise apartment bldg and the architect screwed up and got the wrong one of those NFPA ratings.... the building was nearly done and then they had to go in and do some minor/major remodeling... what a bummer. They had to install some fire rated partition walls from foundation to rafters. The plans had been approved by the city and everything but then toward the end, an inspector raised a red flag.... I don't know the details, just overheard some of the conversations which were punctuated with a number of cuss words... :-)
Don't mean to make you paranoid, just saying that you darn well better cross your Ts and dot your Is during the planning stage.
Edited 8/17/2005 2:41 am ET by Matt