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Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

elec. for OLD house

zandor | Posted in General Discussion on October 9, 2002 05:41am

Hi all,

I am posting this for my husband, so pardon if I get the terminology wrong.  He is installing a new 200 amp service in an 80 year old house with fused neutrals, knobs and ? (can’t remember what he said).  Any comments or suggestions?  *He is not rewiring the whole house, but may be in the future.  Thanks, Wife of sherndog.

Reply

Replies

  1. NormKerr | Oct 09, 2002 07:47pm | #1

    um, no offense, but installing a new main panel to any house, regardless of its age, demands more care than someone just asking their spouse to 'see if anyone on the internet has any ideas about doing this.'

    Now, I could be over reacting because the original post is pretty brief I can't tell what care is likely to be taken by your husband in this endevour so here's some thoughts for you:

    - have an electrician do it

    If you already plan to hire an electircian and are looking for input here about good things to watch out for:

    - discuss your project with your local inspector. That person can tell you lots about the local codes / requirements and about the kinds of things they've seen done wrong that they want to make sure you avoid.

    - read the archives here (a huge wealth of knowledge)

    - come back here with specific questions

    Definitely, bring specific questions to this board, it will help others to help you.

  2. domermatt | Oct 10, 2002 12:31am | #2

    80 year old house with fused neutrals, knobs and ? (can't remember what he said).  Any comments or suggestions?

    Would that be knob and tube wiring? If so, you'd probably be best to rewire the whole house and bring it all up to code.  If the house is 80 years old and has never been rewired, I would have to doubt the wiring in the house is of sufficient capacity to power everything we put in houses now that didn't exist 80 years ago.

    Like was already stated (but not in as nice a tone), if he needs to ask this stuff he shouldn't do it. Period. Get an electrician who is trained and knows what he is doing to do it. Also, why isn't your husband asking these questions? Does he realize he's going to be told to fork over the money for a real electrician by pretty much anyone here?

    Back to being nice.  How many circuits does the house currently have? Are there places that need to be GFCI protected(and are they)? Is anything overloaded already? Are you planning any additions/upgrades that would require more electricity? I would assume the panel is overloaded if you are upgrading it, so something else probably is.  When the electrician you hire comes out to see what needs to be done, make sure he checks the service drop from the transformer and the meter to ensure they are properly sized. Hope these questions can lead you to a safe completion of the job by a professional electrician.

    Question of my own: What is a fused neutral? I've never heard of them.

    When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka
    1. NormKerr | Oct 10, 2002 01:07am | #3

      A fused neutral is an old way of doing things that is deadly.

      For some reason it was done for quite some time back at the beginning of home electricity (maybe a hold over from DC service or something).

      Another common thing found in Knob and Tube wiring ("Knob & Tube" = the hot and the neutral wires are completely separate wires, run thru ceramic insulators) is broken neutral light switches (also dangerous / can be deadly).

      One more common thing found in K&T wiring is that tracing a 'circuit' can be problematic because having a separate piece of wire for hot and neut allowed for some pretty creative methods for doing stuff. Compared to the way we run 3-way switches, drop lamp circuits and so on with modern Romex, you can go crazy trying to reverse engineer K&T enough to safely tap into it or remove a portion of it.

      Rewiring an old house is something that can be done without damaging the existing plaster, and can be done cost effectively when you find a skilled electrician to work with, or you learn how to do it properly yourself, running new wires just takes time and care. But unlike stripping paint and re-glazing windows it can kill you / burn you down if done wrong so hiring an electician is generally sound advice when so little information is provided as was in the original post.

  3. User avater
    Gunner | Oct 10, 2002 03:35am | #4

    To upgrade your service to 200 amps your house has to be brought up to code. Knob and tube are not up to code. I would highly recomend getting a few bids from licensed electricians that specialize in rewires. You might be surprised. They will definatly do it a lot faster and easier then you can. At the very least you may pick up a little knowledge. If you have to do it yourself buy the books and study your butt off. You can pick up a lot of tricks that will save you big. And always remember everything you do with electricity can potential murder everyone in the house. You can't have a bad day, or a just get it done attitude. A nicked wire is a heating element, and a smashed wire is a fireball. If you ever see it happen you'll never take it lightly again. Don't let me scare you. But it's just the reality that needs to be considered.

    1. User avater
      rjw | Oct 10, 2002 03:48am | #5

      "To upgrade your service to 200 amps your house has to be brought up to code."

      That will vary from place to place.

      "Knob and tube are not up to code. "

      Again, depends on the place and AHJ.  Technically, under the model NEC you can still use K&T but the cost would be outrageous and you'd blow any AHJ's mind getting it inspected!.

      "And always remember everything you do with electricity can potential murder everyone in the house."

      ABSOLUTELY!

      1. junkhound | Oct 10, 2002 04:16am | #6

        Built 1922?

        Attached pix is a breaker from Grandma's house that I rewired in early 1960's.

        Built in 1913 with gas lights, wired (k&t, wire also pulled thru gas pipes) in about 1919.

        If your fuse box has fuses that look like this, rewire everything. As already stated, get rid of the neutral fuses right away.

        The 'modern' wires are from testing what solder fuse levels are - 14 AWG 40/60 was about 25 A.

  4. chiefclancy | Oct 10, 2002 05:13am | #7

    And another thing... even if your husband knows what he's doing (but isn't a liscensed electrician), make sure your municipality allows him to do the wiring himself. In most communities, certain aspects of electrical work can only be performed by liscensed electricians, and for good reason. In mine, I can't even change out a ceiling fan without being in technical violation of code. Even if you're tempted to go ahead anyway, consider the possibility of burning the house down and the insurance company not covering it.

    A brief story- last year, about four blocks from me, a beautiful 1920s tudor duplex suffered a horrible house fire which started in the attic, and a little kid wound up dying. The cause? K&T wiring. So, I think it's a wise investment to get all of that stuff outta there. Now maybe I should get it out of my attic........

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Oct 10, 2002 07:40am | #9

      " Even if you're tempted to go ahead anyway, consider the possibility of burning the house down and the insurance company not covering it."

      Urban myth.

      1. Piffin | Oct 10, 2002 07:51am | #10

        Well, then, consider the possibility of burning the house down and not being around to file a claim.

        Is that more accurate?.

        Excellence is its own reward!

        1. 4Lorn1 | Oct 10, 2002 11:01am | #11

          Do a search on, "K and T", "K&T", "knob and tube". There are scads of information on this topic in the archive. As I remember it that horse is still bruised from my flogging alone.

          Do talk to any relevant codes and or inspection departments in your area. Also consult with an electrical contractor. Try to find one that has been around for 30+ years and has extensive experience in old work on old houses. Some of the newer electricians may have never seen K&T wiring. They will do their best but in such situations experience counts. If you or they, better they, go for a rewire, a very good idea, be prepared to pay for expertise and have the job go more slowly than normal.

          If you need to snake in cables be very patient. Experience and a certain touch are needed. Things go much faster if the attic, crawlspace and walls are present and open. Be careful. Good luck.

          1. DavidxDoud | Oct 10, 2002 04:25pm | #12

            does anyone else think that AJ has returned, checking on the evolution of Breaktime? - -

          2. MajorWool | Oct 10, 2002 11:56pm | #17

            We had two K&T circuits that were difficult to replace, being the overhead lights on the first and second floors which were deemed inaccessible w/o major tear ups. The electricians opted to putting these two circuits on arc-fault breakers. Of course the difficult thing with K&T is deciding who should be hot and who should be neutral. It was pretty much a crap shoot guessing if the receptacle center pin was controlled by the switch, and with 6 lights on a circuit one could find 50% neutral switched and 50% hot switched.

            Rule 1 in an old house. Accept nothing unless you have tested it personally, and start with a really open mind.

            IMHO, old light fixtures should only be touched if you are financially and psychologically prepared for a complete replacement.

        2. User avater
          BillHartmann | Oct 10, 2002 05:36pm | #13

          "Well, then, consider the possibility of burning the house down and not being around to file a claim. Is that more accurate?"

          While it is might be accurate, my comment is SO WHAT!

          Not to be mean or cruel to the dead home owner, but are you saying that there are never any electrical files in homes that don't have K&T wiring?

          I don't like falsehoods and scare tactics. I don't think that they add anything to the discussion. And I don't know how other respond, but when I see these kind of tactics then I will distrust if not ignore everything else that they are saying.

          1. user-178115 | Oct 11, 2002 02:02am | #18

            Bill--

            I think Piffin may have been commenting on the insurance issue, not the potential fire hazard represented by knob and tube wiring.  Unclear whether your "urban myth" comment was addressing the insurance or the knob-and-tube.  My carrier would certainly contest a claim filed as a result of my engaging in an illegal activity (namely messing with a main panel)...

            Regards,

            Rework

          2. Piffin | Oct 11, 2002 02:36am | #19

            No need to get strung tight as a wire Bill. I was just rephrasing what you said, in my mind. Maybe I missed something - I know you did - but then I should have put the smiley in the tag.

            ;O).

            Excellence is its own reward!

          3. chiefclancy | Oct 11, 2002 05:44am | #20

            "I don't like falsehoods and scare tactics. I don't think that they add anything to the discussion."

            I really don't see how identifying K&T wiring as a fire hazard and pointing out the risks involved in replacing a service panel constitutes falsehoods or scare tactics. Some people get so caught up in trying to save a buck that they don't consider the consequences of their actions. Sometimes those people need a kick in the hinder to help them see the bigger picture.

          4. CPopejoy | Oct 11, 2002 06:34am | #21

            sherndog & DW--

            Rewiring an old house is the most difficult type of residential electrical work there is. 

            If you want to do this yourself, get three books and read 'em first:

            "Old Electrical Wiring" by Shapiro (McGraw-Hill)

            "Electrical Wiring-Residential" by Mullin (DelMar)

            "Wiring a House" by Cauldwell (Taunton Press)

            Also, get the National Electrical Code-2002 Handbook (NFPA) as your primary reference (it's not an easy read, but it really helps to be able to point to the actual Code sections when you talk with the inspector).  Cost of books: about $250.  Reading the three books ought to take a couple of months of intensive study.  And you'll need a good understanding of general house construction (framing), too.  Read a couple of basic books on framing.  Volunteer with Habitat for Humanity so you can learn what the guts of a house look like.  Invest maybe six months on this, it'll really increase your comfort level when you start to drill into the walls of your house.  

            Then plan on spending about $600 on specialized tools (1/2"  HD right angle drill, auger bits, pro quality 3/8 drill, bell hanger bits, fiberglass fish wands).  And about $600 on normal electrician's hand tools, a good cordless drill, and a sawzall.  Unless you're going to open the walls (rip out the lath and plaster), you have to have the specialized tools or you'll go nuts with frustration.  Don't forget the coveralls, half-face dust respirator, and goggles for swimming in the chopped fiberglass insulation and rat droppings in the attic while your'e pulling cable and cutting boxes onto the ceilings.

            Then go to it, and come back to this or other electrical bulliten boards for help on specific questions.

            Unless you plan to rewire more than one house in your lifetime, you're probably better off hiring an electrician to do the work.  No kidding.  Like anything else, you'll make mistakes.  If you're lucky, you'll have the inspector on your side and he or she will catch your mistakes. 

            Good luck--

            Cliff

          5. User avater
            rjw | Oct 11, 2002 04:33pm | #22

            And, if people would take Cliff's advice, they'd be safer and save me a lot of ink in my inspection reports.  The following letters on my keyboard are almost completely worn off:

             a  m  a  t  e  u  r  i  s  h    w  o  r  k  m  a  n  s  h  i  p

          6. User avater
            BillHartmann | Oct 11, 2002 06:25pm | #24

            I see from the several responses that my first message was not clear.

            It was about this part of your statement;

            "and the insurance company not covering it."

            That is what I was calling an urban legend. I have seen that posted many times as an scare tactic. Don't do xxx or you must do xxx or if anything happens your home owners insurance won't cover it.

            Well I look at several policies and could not find anything that would cover this. Last year I posted the question in this forum and another one.

            Got lots of response including several from insurance adjustors and agents.

            Urban Legend. In fact one of the adjustors said that the policies included "stupidity coverage".

            But while we are on the subject.

            "I really don't see how identifying K&T wiring as a fire hazard and pointing out the risks involved in replacing a service panel constitutes falsehoods or scare tactics."

            Is K&T wiring a fire hazard? Are you trying to tell me that me that homes with K&T wiring never have fires?

            What percentage of electrical fires are caused by K&T wiring vs that of say old style cloth and rubber 'romex' as compared with the number of installations?

            And of those fires how many are caused by miss use or bad repairs/modifications?

            Those are facts.

            "A brief story- last year, about four blocks from me, a beautiful 1920s tudor duplex suffered a horrible house fire which started in the attic, and a little kid wound up dying. The cause? K&T wiring."

            That is a scare tactic. It is easy to find a single case to show your point.

            Based on that I could argue that we should get rid of ALL electrical and ALL gas and ALL indoor plumbing in a house.

          7. booch | Oct 11, 2002 08:48pm | #25

            "Based on that I could argue that we should get rid of ALL electrical and ALL gas and ALL indoor plumbing in a house. "

            Can I keep a candle to warm my hands and light the room?

            Sounds right on the Insurance. Unless they can prove malicious intent.

            Bluster kind of sums it up.

          8. User avater
            JeffBuck | Oct 12, 2002 06:51am | #26

            knob and tube is perfectly safe..and is't gonna burst into flames....in every house in existance......is the wiring system is in good working order.

            knob and tube can even be....legally, around here......tied into a modern breaker box and romex.

            knob and tube most be on a 15 amp breaker to do so safely. Sometimes the "neutral" is broken.....but with the carter system of wiring knob and tube.....which was an attempted update......there should be a secondary neutral. Which can lead to bad things if an electrician not familiar with all facets of knob and tube go in and change things around...sometimes even trying to "fix" the broken ground!

            Sounds like lotsa "electrical experts" around here better start working arounds lots older homes with knob and tube...and start askeing smarter questions of their even smarted electricians!

            Jeff...not and electrician...Buck

            BTW...did I mention that knob and tube won't burn your house down??

            as in..."fused correctly".....is the key phrase....

            .......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......

          9. User avater
            rjw | Oct 12, 2002 01:36pm | #27

            Jeff,

            I'm with ya, although yesterdat did an 80 year old house with K&T (and some upgrades) and every k&T circuit had grounded neutrals!

          10. Dant45 | Oct 12, 2002 04:00pm | #28

            Jeff,

            I agree 100%.  I do some electrical upgrades in older homes.   I have no issue with K&T.  How can it be a negative to run wires 16" or better apart.  Best insulation in the world, air space.  Neutrals can be an issue as well as poorly done splices, usually in the basement.  I cut them out and put them in a box.  But well done splices are no problem.  Ditto on the 15 amp limit.  Some wire guage for K&T can be as large as 11 guage but I never go over the 15 amp limit.  another area of issue can be short wires in boxes but this is easily remedied with proper splice of a new wire in the box.  DanT

          11. 4Lorn1 | Oct 12, 2002 05:14pm | #29

            K&T is the only system that I have seen that has lasted 80+ years. It is the only system that has been around that long. It was an adaptation of the same system used to string lines on poles. As long as it is not damaged, modified by untrained personnel or abused by chronic overloading it is inherently safe from a fire perspective. I have never seen a K&T installation with an effective ground system. This increases the hazard of being shocked. Also K&T precludes the use of insulation. If surrounded by insulation it can be endanger anyone moving in the space and a general fire hazard.

            Most insurance companies will insure a house with K&T wiring. I get called to do inspections some times. K&T wiring, depending on the company involved and the particular situation, will usually increase your premiums. In some areas not having insulation in the attic is not a big problem. In other areas the savings in energy costs possible with added insulation will easily pay for a rewiring in a few years.

          12. andybuildz | Oct 12, 2002 05:25pm | #30

            Seems its all been said but I wonder why after 30 posts Sherndog hasnt come back here......hmmmmm.

            Be well

                    Namaste'

                                 andyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

  5. user-178115 | Oct 10, 2002 06:43am | #8

    All--

    A search of past six months revealed only this sole posting for "sherndog", and note that hours later all responses to him are unread.  Potentially a hoax?...If not, a fellow FHBer way over his head?...

    Regards,

    Rework

  6. booch | Oct 10, 2002 06:44pm | #14

    One doesn't fuse a neutral. I Had that experience that was outlined a bit back in time here in Breaktime. If you lose the neutral / ground, thru the fuse blowing, your whole house goes to 220 volt. Read that as a very bad thing.

    If he persists on ignoring the problem, then have him at least talk to an electrician buddy. Or better yet put him in front of the keyboard.

    1. JohnSprung | Oct 10, 2002 10:24pm | #15

      > If you lose the neutral / ground, thru the fuse blowing, your whole house goes to 220 volt.

      More accurately, your electrical system becomes a big voltage divider comprised of two groups of parallel loads across 240 volts.   If the two legs were exactly balanced and there were no current in the neutral, you wouldn't even notice the difference.  But in the real world that isn't what happens.  The voltage goes lower on the side with the heavier load, and higher on the side with the lighter load.

      I had that happen on a low budget movie shoot a long time ago.  The light side had three nine light units on it.  The best boy was in a hurry that morning, and didn't tape the neutral Mole pins.  Normally, you tape the neutrals but not the hots, to prevent exactly this kind of thing.  Anyhow, the neutral fell out at the generator, and we noticed a shift in the lighting.  The nine lights got brighter.  I guess the balance went to about 100 volts on one side and 140 on the other.  We had about 5 seconds to wonder what was going on, and then one of the bulbs in a nine light blew.  The remaining ones got brighter.  Then another blew and the rest got brighter.  It was sort of like popcorn starting to pop as the bulbs blew at an increasing rate.  The right thing to do is to rip out one of the hots, but this happens so rarely that I didn't figure it out until it was too late.  Those 27 bulbs were expensive, and time consuming to replace, as they have two screw terminals on them.

      -- J.S.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Oct 10, 2002 11:20pm | #16

        You are right, if you loose the supply neutral.

        Nowever, I think that this is a different case.

        It is for the branch circuits. Each branch circuit has a fuse in the neutral instead of or in addition to the hot.

        That causes different kinds of danger. You think that the circuit is dead when you are working on it, but it is not.

        I am working on a friend's home that had an addition added in the early 70's. I have run across several lights with switched neutral.

      2. booch | Oct 11, 2002 05:28pm | #23

        Dead On,

        Never thought about the phenomonon by voltage but had the same thing in my house with all bulbs going the way of flashbulbs. Thanks for the definition.

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