Electric rates: Please Advise.
Hudson Valley Carpenter
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
My local power company has come up with an alternate metering and rate system called Time of Use.
It makes electricity available at very reduced rates during off peak hours. This would seem to make electric heat a very attractive propostition, especially in a super insulated home.
I’d appreciate comments on this program. How would these rates effect your choice of a heat source?
http://www.oru.com/programsandservices/incentivesandrebates/timeofuse.html
Edited 4/1/2008 6:46 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Replies
I can't comment specifically, but will share a story. About 6 or 7 years ago, my heat pump died. I replaced it with a 12 Seer unit with electric backup and variable speed blower on a new A coil. Direct vent oil and gas were suggested, but the unit and install costs were higher than the regular HP since I didn't have any venting in place. I had heard horror stories of Direct Vent oil and Nat gas is unavailable. I was hesitant to install Propane due to cost. I pay 4.4 /kWh for electricity. The numbers for Propane just didn't add up.
EVERYBODY told me I was a fool. EVERYBODY.
Since then, I replaced siding and added housewrap. Replaced all windows with more efficient units. (top of line Andersens). Upgraded insulation. And Propane and oil prices have gone through the roof. My electricity? Still 4.4/ kWh. Maryland has recently deregulated and folks electric bills are almost doubling. I'm on a different utility that deregulates in 2010, so my kWh rate will likely increase as well. But even if my rate doubles? It will STILL be cheaper to heat with the HP and electric backup than current prevailing rates for oil and propane.
I guess my point is that the generally accepted thought on electric heat is that it's inefficient and too expensive to operate. But I think that sometimes it makes sense. Only you can run the numbers to see if it makes sense for you. I ran the calculations and included the reduced installation costs in my decision since it is a factor. For me it made financial sense. And despite what people say about heat pumps, when used properly, I believe they are just as comfortable as any forced air system. ( I won't argue against radiant systems)
My personal take is that the US is the Saudi Arabia of Coal. And most of the electricity in the country is generated by coal. As Crude gets more expensive, I see electricity comparing very favorably to gas and oil as a heating alternative.
Of course I could be wrong. Who ever thought Heating oil would hit $3+ a gallon 7 years ago when everybody was laughing at me for installing a HP with electric backup?
Edited 4/1/2008 8:08 am ET by frontiercc2
As Crude gets more expensive, I see electricity comparing very favorably to gas and oil as a heating alternative.
That's been the logic which I've been applying to the current situation and forseeable future. At the present time I believe the best available alternatives, when building a new home, are to invest in super-insulated methods and materials, employing various forms of electric heat.
A super-insulated house doesn't need a big heating system, far from it. Putting in an expensive oil or gas boiler and full hydronic system seems ill advised, considering the current price of oil and all future projections.
As crude becomes more expensive there will be pressure on the market to find or invent other types of fuel. Therefore what seems inevitable is that heating systems which rely on oil and gas will become non-viable, too expensive to operate, within a relatively short time, ten to twenty years.
Orange and Rockland's TOU program, partly based on a new metering system (new technology), is one indication that alternative methods are being explored and will continue to become available because of the simple economic law called supply and demand.
FIRST YOU NEED TO READ THE FINE PRINT.
"TOU rates apply only to the Delivery Charge portion of your overall electric energy bill
Under New York State's transition to a deregulated energy market, O&R no longer produces electricity. Instead, O&R buys the power supply customers need from generating companies in the open market and then deliver that energy to your home or business.
The cost for your electric supply is shown on your energy bill as the Market Supply Charge. The cost for O&R's delivery of that electricity is listed on your bill as Delivery Charge. This portion of your bill is where the TOU rate applies. Typically, 53% of the annual residential bill payment is for Market Supply Charges, with 45% covering O&R's delivery costs and 2% going to government taxes. "
Hard to tell from the way that they give you the information but I am guessing that you might be paying any additional 2 to 5 cents per kWh for the purchasedd cost of power.
If you look at their current rates and take 1/2 of that it is probably a good guess at the purchased power rate.
To get the most out of a system like this you need to either accept some tempature swings and/or some special controls with adaptive/predictive tempature control or special heating equipment.
For heating there are high mass storage heaters where a mass is heated up and then air/water is circulated through it when needed.
If you want to go hydronic a simple system that would work well is some well insulated hot water heaters with a time clock. But you need to compute how much energy that you need to store to keep the tempature up during 11 hours.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Greetings Bill,
That advisory from Orange and Rockland did not escape my attention. They used to be one of the most expensive and most corrupt utilities in the country so the first thing I look for in anything they offer is the "fine print". <G>
Let's assume that the off peak rate of~$.01/KWH gets tripled by add-on fees. That's still less than half of what it costs now to heat with oil or gas.
I'm happy to see your thoughts on how to take advantage of the very low off peak rates. I suspect that many of us who have done a lot of contemplation on saving energy would come up with similar answers, right away.
Now if battery technology continues to improve and production cost decline, we can all look forward to at least one electric commuter car in the garage, soaking up those low cost KWHs every night.
Puget Sound Energy had a similar program until 2007.
Very few signed up so they discontinued it.
In own case, had multiple timers on WH, HP, clothes dryer usage etc. Only saved about $4 a month.
Your link shows much greater differences than PSE offered (only 2 cents kw-hr difference), so you need to do your full calculations.
Edited 4/1/2008 10:14 am ET by junkhound
Your link shows much greater differences than PSE offered (only 2 cents kw-hr difference), so you need to do your full calculations.
Yes, that off peak rate of $.01135whatever/KWH really jumps off the page at ya, doesn't it?
And it only takes a few moments thought to see how it could effect total home energy bills, when applied to best advantage.
Hudson Valley Carpenter.
I did the calculations about 4 years ago on my place and it wound up being a wash between natural gas and electricity..
I wound up going with electricity because there are hundreds of those giant windgenerators out there up and running but not on line due to delays in getting powerlines from them.. When they come on line costs will be reduced. In addition we are relatively close to the western coal fields so the cost of coal fired electricity is under steady price pressure..
Finally we have an abundance of electrical power now and in the future. Other energy sources are competing with China and India for buyers while electrical energy loses too much over distance to be viable. Thus it has to find a relatively local market.
Off peak power is not offered locally but nearby and those who have it and use it wisely report decent savings with it over straight rates.. Dishwashers, dryers, etc all now have programmable timers to kick on when off peak rates occur. My Brother-in-law has carried it to an extreme.. He recently built a pure electric car which he charges off peak. It's a Honda Civic converson and has only enough juice to get to work if the lights are on and the heater (electric) blowing (a little over 20 miles. He charges it at work and drives home on the companies nickle)
You should hear him gloat about cheating the oil companies... <grin>
Clearly you have not been following the news.The price of coal is way up. And a lot is being shipped to China.And wind generators are not "free" power, far from it.They need standby generators to supply power when their is no wind.Normally they have sometime to slowing bring the other generators upto speed. But they still need to pay for the generators and enough fuel to keep them spinging although they don't produce any revenue.And a couple of weeks ago they had a power criss in TX when there was a sudden drop in wind.Had to cut power to some users..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,
You forgot to tell Frenchy about how the wind generators will gradually slow the rotation of the Earth and hasten global warming. Let's hope that when it grinds to a halt, those rich oil magnates in the middle east are all facing the sun. ;-)
That will never happen.Too many birds will be killed by the blades.Then the dead birds will atract the vultures.Then the vultures will be killed.This will keep repeating until the dead birds build up and block the wind blades..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Has everyone forgotten that most of the upward pressure on NG prices is because it is being bought up to produce electricty?
The number of peak power natural gas turbin generating facilities has gone off the charts in the last several years. Coal fired generation is costly, takes forever to get approved and built, yadda, yadda, yadda. Gas turbins get quick approval. are environmently more accepatble, and they gobble gas at astounding rates. The power is then sold off grid or used in a local grid if the owner can show they can't keep upwith demand loads via their standard generation. The cost of gas generation can then be passed on to the consumer via market pricing or adjustments on local generating cost.
This is the giant that is pushing up NG cost.
I did not know what percent the gas units where.And I know that they are usued for peak topping. But I don't have any idea of what the percentage of power comes from gas.And I don't know how practical it is and what the response times are to keep steam units "idling" online to compensate for solar and wind going off offline.But we are in the middle of several of these issues.My local poco (Aquilla/MoPub) built a gas tubine unit without getting a building permit from the country. Then been figthing in court claiming first that they did not have need one, but where covered bye a generic state utility comission state of need. Latter they got a specific one for that plant.Currently it is looking like they will have to tear it down and build it someplace else.BTW, this peaking unit is to replace one by a 3rd party energy producer (not a poco) when their contract expired they though that they could do a "better" job on their own.That company's parent company lost money in the energy trading that got exon. So it is being brokenup and this division is being sold to another local utility (Great Plains Energy/KCPL).KCPL is building a new large coal unit and MoPub has a minority share in it.As part of the approvals they had to agree to more wind power and to reduce discharges from one of their exiting units.But planning cost have increased drastically since they started on this and are delaying the start of the wind turnbins.A nearby CO-OP had very permininary plans for a new coal unit. But rasing coal cost, construction cost increase and their lender is not lending on coal right now so that they are not proceeding.And in Western KS a poco was going to build 2 coal units and had out of state customers signed up.It has all local approvals, but the head of the state health department vetoed it because it would increase green house gases.And the plan was also to include some wind turnbines.The great unwashed just expects them to go ahead and built more wind turbines not understanding that if they don't have a base of reliable power from a plant they don't have anything to sell so they aren't going to build any wind turnbines..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
are you saying the local utility built a power plant without permits?
How could they hide it?
If I so much as try to build without permit, BI are all over me.
Since it is built, why doesn't local gov. make some kind of financial
deal with them to keep?
We are in the process of trying to stop a high voltage power line from
upstate NY to NYC. The feds have stepped in and said it is in the nations
best interest. They want to run the line along old railroad tracksthrough the middle of towns and cities.
NYC, can't build there own power plants. not in my back yard...
On top of that they withdrew a licence for an opperating nuclear
plant on long Island. To make it even funnier, they are trying to close
nuclear plant on the lower hudson.
Then people in NYC wonder why we hate the city.
The question is who had jurisdiction..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Frenchy, I think your reasoning is pretty sound. As long as I can use off peak electricity for 2/3rds of my total bill, I'm sure that a well insulated all electric house will save money over other types of fuel.
Can you give me some idea of how you like electricity as your heat source What type of heat do you have, baseboard or what? Are there any advantages or drawbacks about electric heat?
Edited 4/1/2008 5:09 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson Valley Carpenter..
In floor radiant heat using electric water heaters as my heating source..
I'm sure you're familiar with the benefits of in floor radiant heat. Instead of a boiler I used electric water heaters.. I have two. The prime one is 100 gallon which is used for both domestic hot water and supplemental heat. Eventually the system will be circular so that in the winter heat is provided first to hot water and then as a heat source.. when the BTU ability of that water heater is exceeded I have a standby water heater capable of duplication of the BTU output. according to my loss calculation there will be days when the temps are below minus 25 when that is insufficient and in those cases I retained my old (newish) high efficiency furnace as back up which when temps drop really cold I can kick on and provide supplemental heat. (don't forget we get 40 below here several times a winter)
The reason for water heaters over boilers is because the idea of heating water to the 190 200 degree region where boilers start to become efficient and then cooling it back down before sending into the tubing (Pex is most efficient around 130 degrees) just seems wrong to me.. water heaters, electric water heaters can be set at 100 degree or whatever temp is called for (right now I have mine set at 105 because that's as hot a bath water as I can stand, meets dishwasher minimums, and provide warm toasty floors. Not to mention I paid less for two electric water heaters than 1/2 of what a boiler would cost me..Thus future improvements are an easy affordable change not a $3500 dollar decision..
My heating bills are around 230 Month for the coldest months (Dec./Jan).. (with the same furnace they used to be over 500 a month in the old smaller house with about 1/3 the windows).
I can't separate out what electric hot water costs me from the infloor radiant heat but based on what my water heater bills were in the summer with the old gas water heater I'm guessing I saved about $50.00 a month.. But the old water heater wasn't the most efficient one courant available either..
Now the negatives about electric hot water . First it has a much slower recovery rate..about 1/2 hour or so for 100 gallons. That is why I use 100 gallon heater as my prime. so my two daughters can each take showers without getting cold water..
Second I only have 200 amp service and if both water heaters are on and I'm using some of my bigger electrical draw equipment( Power planer and or or welder) I can approach the limits of my panel.. I upgraded from 100 amp service to 200 amp service and the power company pulled big enough wires for me to have 400 amp service which in hindsite I should have gotten..
The only other issue that I see is the cost of power from the street to your panel is your responsibility.. I remember you are pretty rural so that might be a consideration..
Thanks Frenchy,
Your reasoning is again, easy to appreciate and makes sense to me. Of course I prefer radiant floor heat but in a super-insulated home, under less severe winter conditions than yours, it would be overkill, at least on the two upper floors.
However, using a DHW heater for both RF heat and hot water makes RF a good method for the lowest level where the floor will be concrete.
Taking advantage of the low off peak rate offered by O&R Utilities, it would be helpful to have the slab's thermal mass to absorb some of that inexpensive energy, releasing it slowly during the following day when the much higher rates are in effect.
In addition to the slab, a secondary large water heater connected directly to the primary water heater, also working off a timer to use the off peak power and raise it's water to higher temperatures, should keep daytime requirements for heat and hot water working off of energy received during off peak hours.
Such a system would require some kind of tempering, to keep the primary WH at it's optimum temperature but that shouldn't be difficult to work out.
The only other issue that I see is the cost of power from the street to your panel is your responsibility.
Under NY State regulations the utility company is responsible for installing the first pole on the property. One would be enough.
Edited 4/1/2008 5:13 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I haven't read the whole thread, but there is a program here that you can sign up for. Basically, the co-op here sells power more cheaply during non-peak use times, i.e. overnight. The job we are building now is using an electric boiler for radiant floor heating, and according to the designer/installer the HO will be able to take advantage of lower rates by running the system and heating the floors in the early morning, right before everyone wakes up and starts turning on their lights, etc. This works with radiant because there is ramp-up time before the house starts warming up.
Sounds like many of the utility companies are following the same path, except that mine is making the off peak rates very attractive.
At this point my only concern is whether my power company has a long term commitment to this policy. I'll be sure to get something in writing from them before making any permanent decisions about heating my next home.
BTW, it seems more economical to use electric HW heaters for both RF and hot water than installing a separate boiler. Read Frenchy's second post in this thread for the reasoning behind that POV.
Edited 4/1/2008 11:01 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I am not sure that you understood my earlier message.Those rates are not what you PAY for electricity.Only for TRANSPORTING IT OVER THEIR LINES..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, I did understand your message but was misled by O&R's estimate of how the reduced off peak delivery charge would effect my annual bill.
I've just spoken with an O&R customer service rep who explained the actual costs to me as well as the options available. As it turns out, the current KWH rate is about $.11 with very little difference between the various producers.
In addition, off peak rates don't apply to the power, only the delivery charge.
Therefore, even if I use all available means to take advantage of off peak rates, I'll only save about 25% off my bill.
My final question to the service rep was about fuel prices for power producers. She said that the cost of electricity is tied almost directly to the cost of natural gas.
None of this is good news for the consumer. The best that one can expect from the off peak rates is that they'll make electricity more closely competitive with fossil fuels.
We have "off peak" rates that we qualified for by installing an electric thermal storage heater.
Our off peak rate is a bit less than half the normal. We run the dishwasher, clothes washer & dryer, and other stuff during the off peak hours as much as we can.
We also installed an 80 gallon water heater with the power on a timer. With only two of us living here, we have plenty of hot water with the water heater only on six hours at night and four hours in the afternoon.
I also keep my shop from freezing in winter with electric heaters on timers. They run on low during the night at the cheap rate.
Depending on the season, about 1/3 of our total bill is for off peak power. Another way of stating that would be that about half our total kwh usage is at the off peak rate.
I like it, but there are a few adjustments to make to get used to taking advantage of it.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
I'm glad to hear that off peak rates are something which works in your favor.
What more can you tell us about electric thermal storage heaters? This thread is the first time I've heard about them.
The brand sold here is Steffes. I don't know if there are other brands. I'm sure Google would reveal more information.They are a super insulated box with ceramic bricks inside and heating elements running through the bricks. The bricks are heated during the off peak hours and a thermostat controls a small fan which blows out the heat as needed. The box does radiate heat whenever the bricks are "charged", but most of the heat is held for use as needed.There is a special meter which counts kwh during on and off peak hours. Another outdoor sensor reads the outdoor temp and charges the unit according to the likely needs as shown by the outdoor temp.Lots of people around here have them. One of the offices in our building has one that's been there for almost ten years. They are as small as a one room heater and as large as a forced air furnace. Ours is not the furnace, but is about 4' long x 9" thick x 22" high. It is never hot enough on the outside to burn you. I think we paid about $1,300 for it.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Thanks the excellent description. I Goggled their web site and had a look. Seems like a very good system, one which would work well in a super insulated home.
Edited 4/2/2008 1:26 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I don't know if their site said so, but these units have another good attribute for a tight home: they actually burn allergens that pass through the heated bricks (bricks can be heated to about 1,800*, IIRC).I have only heard of one failure with these units. The one that failed toasted the board that controls the thing and the entire unit had to be replaced. That unit was the sole heat for it's space for about 8-10 years before failure.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
There's a lot to like about this type of heater, it seems. I think that I'll probably go with this system because of it's ability to hold and release heat predictably, on demand. The technology which controls it is the best I've seen for both economy and precision.
If a small wood stove can be worked into the equation, I'll be even happier.
We have passive solar gain, the ETS unit, other electric baseboard (bathrooms and bedrooms, which we use only occasionally) and a small wood stove. Works out well for us.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Would you describe your house please? How many floors, rooms, sq ft, and how much insulation? Also, what sort of water heater do you have?
I'm trying to get an idea of how a single ETS heater of modest proportions and cost is able to heat the entire space to your satisfaction.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, please. I'm very glad to know that it's working so well and I'm looking forward to achieving my goals for heating my new home with one or more of these units. But, as someone who who's just learning about ETS, it's a bit hard to imagine that one modestly priced heater is doing the job so well.
Edited 4/2/2008 5:53 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
It's more complicated than having the single heater heat the house. :)First of all, we live in a relatively mild dry sunny climate. Your conditions likely require more heat than ours.Our house has three levels: basement, main floor, and second story. Each level is 24'x32'=768 sqr ft.All outside walls are 2x6 with wet pack cellulose blown in before the rock. We took excessive pains to seal the frame to the sheathing at every point.From the simple rectangular shape we get our second heat gain: our house simply has many less outside surface square footage for the area contained than do most homes. (Think Cloud's domes, to a lesser degree)The basement has concrete walls 8" thick insulated on the outside with direct bury foam: 4" on the north and west, 2" on the south and east. The concrete floor is not insulated and is dyed brown. The south wall of the basement contains about 80 sqr ft of window. I don't think the basement would ever drop below about 62* with only sun and the bit of annual solar gain that we start the winter with. (Think PAHS) The only heat we add to the basement is when cloudy and cold weather hit us at the same time, then we run electric resistance heaters on timers to take advantage of the off peak rate. The basement ceilings are about 8'4".The main floor has Vermont Castings smallest stove and about . We burn about 3/4 cord of wood per winter and most of that it fir or pine. Here's the kicker for you: we don't use our thermal storage heater at all! We started it for a few days when we moved in, but then shut it down for nothing but the peace of mind that it's there if we need it (as in if we can't burn wood for some reason such as a long winter vacation). Main floor ceilings are 9'. The ceiling of the main floor is insulated with 9" batts to help keep the heat from heading upstairs too fast.The second story consists of three bedrooms and one bath. The upstairs temp will stay around 55* with no heating if we're heating the downstairs. We use a 2' electric baseboard unit in the bathroom and other electric baseboard units as desired from time to time. We prefer to sleep in a chilly room. My office is in one of the upstairs bedrooms and has a 4" tube with inline fan that takes heat off the downstairs ceiling over the wood stove and blows it into my office. I also use the more extra electric baseboard in my office than in any other room.The attic contains about 28" of blown in cellulose.Both entry doors are covered by porches to help stop heat loss.I don't know the site, but I know it's possible to look up the degree day ratings for your area and mine. I can tell you that we have more than 300 days per year of sun.We generally don't heat at all (except solar gain, of course) until about Nov 1st. Our heating season lasts longer in the spring due to both cloudier weather and the fact that whatever seasonal solar gain we had is gone until fall.Hope that helps!
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
That's a lot more than I expected and all very helpful. My plan is for a three story, 24X36 super-insulated home, so it all fits pretty well.
You have an advantage in that solar works for you in the winter. In my area, winters are two days of clouds to one day of sun.
I anticipate having a small woodstove in the family room in the walk-out basement. The central stairway will be open at all levels and there will be return ducts as well.
In addition to the ETS heater it would make sense to do as you have, use electric baseboard in the closed rooms as an easily regulated backup.
Thanks for all the details. Gives me more reason to believe that the many new methods and products I've learned about here, through the generosity of you and numerous others, will work as I've been hoping they will.
You are certainly welcome.One thing that I didn't think of when we built that I wish I'd done: Find thermostats for the baseboard electric that are also timers. Thus, it would be easier to take advantage of the off peak rate with simple (and cheap!) electric baseboard. We use the oil filled radiator type plug in electric heaters on timers for part of our needs in the basement and shop.I'd really have it made if hardwood grew all around so I could burn it!Best of luck to you.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
If you have wall mounted thermostats you can get digital setback line power stats.Honeywell makes them and I suspect other do also..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'd really have it made if hardwood grew all around so I could burn it!
That's where living in the north east has an advantage. Just clearing a minimum of trees for my new home and driveway will give me enough firewood for at least two winters. If my home's needs are anything like your's my firewood chores should be pretty easy to handle.
I replaced a thermostat a while back and, although I didn't buy one of the programmable models, they are available and not expensive.
Thanks again for your insights and encouragement.
Peter