Just finished remodeling the first floor and kitchen, with one exception: when installing the dishwasher we found that the the electric line was dead. Somehow it got broken after the electrician did rough in.
I’ve traced the wire from the panel across the attic. From inside the attic I can place an electrical tester against the wire and confirm the wire is hot in the attic. Then it drops down inside the finished walls and across a penisula about eight feet to the dishwasher.
How can I find the break without tearing apart all my lovely drywall and trim work to find the problem? Is there a deep scanner that will locate where the hot wire is broken inside the wall?
Thanks so very much – the end is in sight.
Replies
There are various types of circuit tracers that will work -- some better than others.
But first, disconnect the hot wire from the breaker, and tie it to ground, then use an ohmmeter or "buzzer" to check continuity between the wires at the other end. If you don't read a dead short between at least two of the three wires then likely you simply have the wrong cable -- it's unlikely that an "accident" (short of someone intentionally cutting the cable in half) could break more than one wire.
Thanks Dan, I'll try that tonight. If it was a short, like from an errant nail, then wouldn't that trip the breaker? That's why I assumed a complete cut.
may be a defective ire...
conductor broken in the insulation... Copper wire is nick sensitive..
did you eyeball the outlet box really close????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Nope, I didn't look at the outlet box personally. The guy who was helping me out told me the wire was dead at the dishwasher outlet box and I know him well enough that I can trust he was thorough.
But I am baffled by this break. Why isn't there a short at the breaker?
Is there a sensor that will trace the hot wire through the finished wall so I can locate the point it breaks? That would give me a big clue as to the cause.
Hey Colby,<!----><!---->
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Do yourself a big favor. Double-check the DW outlet yourself. Great, reliable, trustworthy people make mistakes also. You will kick yourself real hard if you do all this work, including ripping out your work to find a bad outlet. I had a similar situation to yours and trusted someone else to troubleshoot the easy obvious stuff. Turned out that person (my Dad who has never let me down) made a slight oversight and missed the problem and what would have been a very easy fix. After lots of $$$ and work I learned a valuable lesson. <!---->
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Good Luck.<!---->
Ryan<!---->
Thanks Ryan, point well taken. I'll do that tonight.
Is there a tester that will locate a hot wire within a finished wall? I'd like to rent something like that as my next step before things get destructive.
yes there is...
1200 bucks...
oes everyhing but the repair...
rent????
you'll have to ask yur rental outfits...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
There's a Zircon stud finder that also has modes for detecting metal pipes and hot wires. It's about $30 - 40. Mine lights up in a region about 6" - 8" wide on the wall surface around a piece of romex. It's also OK for finding pipes, but on lath and plaster it's useless for studs. I don't have drywall, so I can't say if it's adequate for that.
If that doesn't find your problem, it may be worth your while to pay an experienced electrician who has the $1200 RF tracer somebody else mentioned.
-- J.S.
A nail can cause a short, or cause a break, depending. In standard 2+g romex the wires are separated far enough that a nail/screw isn't likely to contact more than one wire.However, romex is pretty bullet-proof, and a wild nail isn't that likely to cause a break either.This is one reason why I'm wondering if you even have the right cable.(Though I'll have to admit that I once ran across a piece of romex where there was a splice, and it was supposed to have been cut out of the cable. It just so happened that I chose that piece of romex to strip down for hoopup wire, and I found the splice. So it could be some sort of factory defect.)
Another thought: If this is for the DW, is there a disposal circuit too? Are they maybe crossed? Have you tried flipping the disposal switch on?
Man oh man, I've flipped every switch and then some. :)
The disposal is also on 14 gauge wire (white), while the dw is on 12 gauge (yellow). The dw is a home run back to the panel and there are only 4 other yellow wires there to possibly confuse. All are switched on.
I've racked my brain on all the possible causes for a break and can only come up with the trim finish nailer or screw from the kitchen cabinets. Pretty (un)lucky shot to do that, eh?
That was the first thing that crossed my mind.
Here's my update. Last night I spent some time going over my construction photos. I found some showing the penisula where the dw is installed and could see where the wire was routed across and up the side wall. There is no box for switch or cut off.
I then picked up a zircon stud finder with ac detector and a mess of other features. It worked ok at tracing another parallel live wire, but it was difficult. The peninsula has 1/2" plywood under the drywall to protect against kicking feet, and the other side isn't accessible because the kitchen cabinet backs are not flush against the drywall. I think in a standard 2x4 wall with access on both sides the zircon would work great, and it was only about $35.
The photos gave me another clue: the dw wire ran up the wall next to my media panel in the adjacent garage. That panel easy to pop out of the wall (even easier than pulling out the dw). From there I could grab the wire as it ran vertically up to the top of the wall. Testing it showed it was dead there. So, that means the problem exists immediately above the first floor wall but before it pops out in the garage attic. About a 12" space. What could have broken it there still has me baffled.
On Saturday my electrician is coming out to make the fix. We'll need to patch into it behind the media panel and fish it up into the attic and patch there. This means a couple new splices and boxes, but that's a ton easier than fishing a new wire through the finished penisula. All in all I'm pretty stoked that the problem occured in one of the most accessible spots. I'm feeling pretty lucky considering.
Thanks everyone for all the helpful advice. I'll report back Saturday if my electrician can figure out what broke the wire.
If the problem is between attic and upper wall then likely the problem is where the wire passes through the top plate. It's pretty easy for it to get "nailed" there.
If the wire is disconnected and accessible at both ends, you can check the continuity of each conductor (if you haven't already) - if one is open from an errant nail or something & causing your problems, it's unlikely that all 3 are open ... this will at least confirm that you're dealing with the right wire.
I know someone already mentioned the possibility of a switch for the dishwasher - are you sure the electrician didn't tuck one in some obscure spot?
Make sure you tell us when you finally figure this out ... Bill.
Sorry if this is a dumb question but what will tell me continuity is "open" when I put the ohm meter on the dw end after disconnecting hot from the breaker?
That's why I said to ground the hot in the breaker panel.
Thanks Dan, I'm missing another point. I don't know what "continuity open" means (I don't know much about electrical). What will my ohm meter do that indicates open? I assume I put the ohm leads on white and black and the meter will only jump half way? Then I know I've got a short?
I can wire up standard plugs and lights and haven't gotten shocked in years, but never done this type of troubleshooting. Thanks for all the answers.
If you read infinity or off scale on the ohm meter, you have an open. A short should read zero ohms, or some very low number, like less than 3, and usually down in the tenths.
-- J.S.
With an ohmmeter, with the probes not touching anything it will read "infinity". If you touch the probes together it will read something near zero. Basically, you want to put the ohmmeter on a low scale (100 or 1000 ohms, say) and touch one probe to each wire. If the wires are connected at the other end you'll get a value near zero (on the order of 10 ohms or so). If the wires aren't connected you'll get infinity.The precise reading is unimportant -- it should just be something other than infinity (*). In fact, if your meter has a "continuity" or "buzzer" setting, use that.(*) If you put the meter on too high a scale (100K ohms, eg) then the resistance of your skin will begin to figure in and you'll never get an "infinite" reading while holding the probes with your fingers.If your meter is "autoranging" it should automatically switch down to the lowest ohms range when you have continuity.If you don't want to use a meter, an automotive-style continuity tester (with a battery in the probe) will work just as well.
In a similar situation I found the offending nail by checking nail heads with the ohmeter.
What Dan said, basically, although I would not use the panel ground, just to avoid introducing another variable.
If you isolate the wire, then at one end, twist black and white together, for example, run down to the other end and check continuity between the black and white, then repeat 2 times (all combinations), you will be able to id the 2 good and one bad conductor.
Of course, if more than one is bad, you won't learn anything. You could run another (known good) wire across the floor and use it to check each conductor.
In re-reading, I want to go back to the DW switch again. I think you mentioned a disposal switch but no DW switch. In a house i just had done, the electrician wired a DW switch in addition to the disposal switch - said it was a new code rqmnt. Maybe it's in the wall and plastered over? I'm groping here ..
There is supposed to be, at least in some areas of the country, a disconnect within sight of the DW. Should be more than a simple switch, though -- either a lockable disconnect panel or a removable plug.
checking the continuity is a good idea but for all the testing you have done, i would call the wire dead and run a new one. finding a break just means you spent a whole lot of time searching when you have to run a new one anyway. if you pin point the break, you wont be able to repair it properly because the wire should be stapled and there will not be enough slack in the line. your best choice is to call the original electrician and have him fix his error.
on a similar story i was working on a house and the electrician had a short in one of the circuits. the drywall wasnt up yet so he was able to trace it to a nail from the scaffolding outside. luckly that day no one was on the scaffold because the whole thing was charged.
cheers and good luck
tmaxxx
Urban workshop ltd
If theres a tripped GFCI on the line, it will give you your symptoms.
Spent $150.00 on an electrician to come in after I gave up finding a solution a while back. After an hour I myself saw the GFCI.
Embarassing?
Good luck Robert
There are testers available that detect the distance to a break. You would need to test from the d/w end on hot and neutral. Before you do anything turn the breaker off!
Here's a link for info. You might find an electrician that has one.
http://www.specialized.net/ecommerce/shop/layout.asp?product%5Fid=015X010
Interesting device and it looks like it would be handy.But it would be worthless for a case like this.First the spec is for +-2% +- 2ft and that is only if you have the correct NVP.And it the manual says"The NVP for electrical service cables (such as Romex,BX,UF-B)
varies significantly between manufacturers and even between
production lots from the same manufacturer."
Is that from experience using this device or assuming the actual specs are out to the ends of the tolerance? I use one and it works fine.
No I had never heard of anything that was not over a thousand.I can see where it could be very helpful for things like burried cable where a couple of feet is better than digging up a 100 ft.But are you saying that it will reliably find the break the 6 ft or so where the cables from the atic and down the wall so that you only need to make a opening in that area and not the whole wall?
They have proven to be reliable. This model has 1 ft resolution. It will get you that close any way. I have connected it to known lengths of cable just to see and it was real close.
Also check any GFCIs on and around the kitchen walls????Make sure there are none tripped.
Sorry didn't read the second group of posts.
Edited 3/9/2005 10:11 am ET by Clay