I am sure this has come up in the past, however a search did not reveal this exact case.
Well, we now own that 1959 Connecticut ranch home we wanted. Overall delighted with what we got. The one stumper is some of the outlets are two wire NM cable with no ground.
When I pull the cover off the main new 200A panel I see wires with a ground and some without. Whenever it is an 110V circuit the white neutral and ground connect to the same tie in neutral bus.
What is the purpose of a ground wire if it is the same as the neutral? Why not just connect the ground prong to the neutral?
Where possible I will rewire, where not I’ll install GFCI’s.
Any other options?
Thanks
P. S. Basement floor joists are 16″ OC and actual measurent of 3″ X 10″ chesnut.
Replies
Where to begin? Maybe it should be to "hate the sin, but love the sinner."
From your description, it is clear that your place has had plenty of work performed by folks who did not know what they were doing. It's anyone's guess what other disasters are hidden, like vipers, inside your walls.
In 1959 most homes were wired without a ground wire. For that matter, such two-wire homes almost always used fuses, not breakers. Somebody has taken it upon themselves to 'improve' things- almost certainly without bothering with a permit. An inspection should have caught the very basic errors.
Since 1959 we have had many changes in the way we wire homes. For example, you should now have a ground rod; I doubt you do. Grounds and neutrals should be on separate bars- and there ought to be but one wire under any screw.
At the very minimum, you ought to get a thorough inspection, by a REAL pro. Expect it to take half a day and cost a couple hundred dollars at a minimum. That's just to look- not to fix anything.
Apart from correcting the bad work, the inspection will likely also discover plenty of wires with burnt insulation - from having bulbs too bright in the lights to having the biggest fuses protecting the smallest wires.
Some older boxes had only one ground/neutral bus, even though they were installed at a time after ground wires were reasonably common. These were used in situations where the ground and neutral would have been "bonded" together anyway (which is quite normal, even in modern installations, where the box is the first thing the power lines encounter after entering the house).
So having the ground and neutral of a cable run to the same bus is not (necessarily) a problem or a code violation or anything.
However, I believe all new boxes are required to have separate ground and neutral buses, and in normal use the two should be used for their assigned purposes, even if bonded together.
But this is presumably a new box replacing an old one. The wires coming into the old box were cut to reach the old bus, and, on rewiring, it would have been a choice between using the nearest bus for both wires or using a wire nut to extend the ground (and extending a ground in a breaker panel is frowned on).
Does this mean that you could then wire a 3 prong outlet to a 2 wire cable with the neutral wire connected to both the neutral and ground screws of the outlet? Most definitely not!!! If you did that, and the neutral wire broke/was cut/developed a bad connection then anything plugged into the outlet would have a "hot" case (through the ground wire).
Good advice so far.
>>>When
Good advice so far.
>>>When I pull the cover off the main new 200A panel I see wires with a ground and some without. Whenever it is an 110V circuit the white neutral and ground connect to the same tie in neutral bus.
This part scares me. Whomever installed the new panel clearly didn't know what they were doing. Bond and neutral should be on separate busses with ?/2 NMD.
Amish had a suggestion of $200 for a half day inspection. I think it would be good to ask for a written report of found deficiencies. Then you've got a working document that will let you priorize, plan, and request proposals.
Scott
It is good advice to have a full electrical inspection. But to make it better advice and get more bang for your buck, you should hire an electrician to simultaneously inspect the wires while installing hardwired smoke detectors. At least that's what I did.
I am professional remodeler and bought a decrepit repo house (out of sympathy, I guess). I know electrical reasonably well, and I know a good portion of the codes. I performed my own initial inspection and found a few violations - mostly improper grounds in outlet boxes and unboxed junctions in the attic. Then before I was fully moved in and while I already had everything open, I called up my electrician to re-inspect and install a complete smoke detector system (and also a garbage disposal plug). He was able to inspect while installing and I didn't have to pay for just an inspection. He detangled a couple mysteries I couldn't figure out, found and repaired a few more code violations I missed, cleaned up my breaker panel, and even tightened up my power line (live!!).
I don't remember how much it cost, but I think it was less than $1000.
And as a bonus, I now have a dependable smoke detection system incase we missed any other fire hazards.
DC
i suspect there is no problem with the ground bus. the grounds and neutrals are terminated on the same bar routinely and this is perfectly acceptable and "up to code". only if the panel is a sub panel are the grounds and neutrals required to be seperated.if there is no disconnecting means before your main panel then you are good to go.
the ground has a few purposes, one is to ensure a reliable path to ground to ensure that an overcurrent device will trip. if the hot wire came in contact with a metal switchbox that had no ground the box and metal switch plate would be energized. touch the plate and a faucet or maybe even the fridge and you will complete the circuit. not fun, and can be deadly. installing gfcis will make the situation much safer. even better use ground fault circuit breakers at the panel on all the two wire circuits until you can re-wire.
and even back in 1959 a ground rod would have been installed, or the water pipe would have been used. two ground rods are driven these days.
i suspect you may have ground wires in the cables. check at the romex connector, they used to attach them to the connector screw, a practice called backwrapping or the boston wrap
mike
master electrician/nec expert
>>>only if the panel is a sub
>>>only if the panel is a sub panel are the grounds and neutrals required to be seperated.if there is no disconnecting means before your main panel then you are good to go.
Thanks MIke... I see what you mean. Somehow I thought this was a sub or load center below a disconnect, as is often the case with old houses.