Hi All,
I am in the process of compleating the wiring in my kitchen, before I hang the rest of the rock, I have a threeway switch for lights on the outside of my shop (one in the shop, one in the kitchen by the back door) I would like to add the light on the back porch also. Can this be done. My feed is from the 200amp box in the basement and I ran a threeway wire underground in the pipe when I had my service ran to my shop. This I have hooked up and working, but how would one add another light to this circuit and have it switch in both locations. Thank you for your help. Rick……..
Replies
You need to install 4-way switches.
Oops...thought you wanted to add a switch. Yes, you can add other lights to the 3-way circuit, just wire them in series, but don't put too many on the circuit or you could exceed the ampacity of the wire or switch or both.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Edited 5/31/2004 6:09 pm ET by Ed Hilton
Thanks Ed,
Could you explain wiring in series, This whole three way thing always stumps me. Could be the dyslexia. I just finished running a wire out on the back porch and up to the new 3-way switch in the kitchen. Thanks again. Rick
Ed , There will be only three lights being switched 2 on my shop and 1 on the back porch which faces the shop, this will light up the walkway between the two very nicely.
A. D.,
3 @ 100watt lamps on a 14ga, 15amp circuit is no problemo, heck 800 watts is no problem.
This highly professional and artistyically exemplary drawing may help you undertsand 3-way switches, which, BTW have no 3 ways about them. I also showed a proper hookup of 3 or more lamps. Notice that they are in parallel, not series.
View Image
While I did not show the neutral wire anywhere near the hot from panel, good custom is to run a 2 conductor w/ground from the panel to one of the 3-ways, run a 3 conductor w/ground from S1 to S2, and a 2 contuctor w/ ground from S2 to your light/s. This keeps all wires associated with the circuit in the same sheath and prevents nasty surprises.
Parallel...series...what the heck do I know...that's why I keep on good terms with my electrician.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
"Could you explain wiring in series, "
It's PARALLEL, not series.
SamT has the concept.
Basically you need to run the switched power back from the lights in the shop to the porch.
To be clear you have hot/neutral ran to the 3 way in the house and then neutral and the two travelers to the shop building. At the shop those connect to the 2nd 3 way and from there you have switch hot and neutral to the lights at the shop. Is this correct?
If you are using cable then 12-2. If you are running wire in conduit you only need to run a single wire as you are already running the neutral.
Just connect this to the switched hot (and neutral if you are using cable) at the shop and run it back to operate the light on the porch.
If I understand you (one light in shop, the other on the porch, with only 3 wires between), you can't do this, at least not without sacrificing the 3-way ability. You would need at least one more wire.
Dan,Bill, Ed and Sam,
If I am reading you all right I am going to need another wire from my shop switch back to my light on the porch. It looked confusing when the idea came to mind while I was digging the trench from my house to my shop. Silly me, hind site is always 20/20.The little voice in the back of my brain told me to run another couple of wires ,just in case.What I have in detail is this. From my two outside lights on my shop there is 14/2 to the switch inside the shop(2) from the switch inside the shop too the switch inside the house is 14/3. (3) From the switch to the panel in the basement is 14/2. There are two 3-way switches one in the shop and one in the kitchen, these I wired up today and they work great. It is this 14/2 wire that I ran from the back porch down into the basement and backup into the kitchen , this little baby is the one wanting direction. So in order to make this light work (porch) in this 3-way I need another wire from the shop lights.so what I need to do is run a 14/2 from my shop lights back to the house and up to the porch light, making the porch light the end of a leg (is it called a leg). guess I was hoping I was not going to have to dig in another wire .Please let me know if this is it. Thank you. Rick
Sounds like you've got the picture. The other option would be to use something like X10 electronic switching.
(I have to wonder, though, why you'd wire a light and not add provisions for power in your shop.)
Hi Dan,
There is a 100 amp box in the shop, I have 19- 110v outlets and 4- 220v outlets , Just thought it would be nice to turn outside lights on from the house before I go to the shop and off again when im out there.I could have pulled my feed from my shop panel and used all but the red wire to run power to the porch light. This is a real good example of not doing somthing enough to be able to think it through to completion. On a funny note My Bride to be Inga was on line today looking up info on this subject, the only thing she found and printed off for me was this pic. of a 3-way "X-10" switched circuit Fig7 from http://www.act-solutions.com . Thanks Rick
Yes, you have it correctly.
Here is an other source of the X-10 products.
http://www.smarthome.com/x10map.html
You will need two switches. And possible a control module that goes into the new light.
I say possibly because you need to down load the instructions first.
What you will probably need to do is to run 14/2 from the 3 way in the house to the box for the porch light and use an oversize box for the light to give enough room for the control module. That will be wired to the hot and neutral from the pannel.
But an other option might be go with a single "full" X-10 switch. That one will be mounted it in the kitchen. Then the cable to the garage will be rewired to have a hot, switched hot, and neutral. Then the porch light is wired off the switched hot and neutral from the kitchen end and the shop light is wired off the switched hot and neutral at the shop end. So the one switch in the kitchen controlls both lights.
Then at the shop end you install a single pole X-10 transsmitter only (from hot to neutral). That will send the signal to the kitchen end to turn off or on.
I think that will work and be the cheapest and it also gives you two switches that up is always on and down is always off. But you need to check the features of each componet to see what does what.
>>It is this 14/2 wire that I ran from the back porch down into the basement and backup into the kitchen , this little baby is the one wanting direction
Yep, that baby wants to run back to the shop and connect to the shop 3-way or one of the fixtures already on that 3-way.
All lights on 3-way switches have to be on the switch that is not wired to the panel.
Thusly:
Panel------switch======switch--------all lights |__________________________| <-----neutral wire
SamT
"All lights on 3-way switches have to be on the switch that is not wired to the panel.
Thusly:
Panel------switch======switch--------all lights
|__________________________| <-----neutral wire"
While true that can be a little confusing.
ELECTRICALLY that is correct. However phyisically the light can also be wired in at the switche nearest the pannel or it can be wired in between the two switches. In those case the 3rd wire is not a neutral but a switched hot or hot.
>>ELECTRICALLY that is correct. However phyisically the light can also be wired in at the switche nearest the pannel or it can be wired in between the two switches. In those case the 3rd wire is not a neutral but a switched hot or hot.
Huh?
You're going to physically connect the wires at one location and electrically connect them elsewhere?????
To ADESIGNS
Thinking outside the box for a minute.
There are 3 conductors and a ground running from kitchen to garage. There is a 100amp subpanel in the garage. Only 2 lights at the garage end.
First check with your local AHJ to see if they will allow this.
Isolate the white wire (in the 3 conductor w/ground traveler cable) from the neutral system at each end. Put red tape on each end of it. Use it as the switched hot feeder from the garage to the porch light. Wire a new neutral from the garage subpanel to the garage switch box to feed the garage lights and connect the porch light neutral to the existing neutral feeding the kitchen switch.
SamT
"All lights on 3-way switches have to be on the switch that is not wired to the panel.
Thusly:
Panel------switch======switch--------all lights
|__________________________| <-----neutral wire"
You said ALL LIGHTS.
I took this to mean all installations of 3 way switches and lights. Not just this partical case.
But to repeat, there are 3 different ways lights can be wired to a 3 way circuit.
A) As shown, with power going to the first 3 way, 3 wires to the 2nd 3 way and then 2 wire to the lights.
B) Power to the 1st 3way, 3 conductor to the box for the light. Then 3 conductor to the 2nd way. In this case the 3rd wire from the first 3way to the light box is a neutral. The 3rd wire from the light box to the 2nd 3 way is a switched hot.
C) Power to the 1st 3 way box. Lights connect with 2 wire cable at the first box. 3 wire cable from the first 3way to the 2nd 3 way. The 3rd wire is a switched hot.
"Isolate the white wire (in the 3 conductor w/ground traveler cable) from the neutral system at each end. Put red tape on each end of it. Use it as the switched hot feeder from the garage to the porch light. Wire a new neutral from the garage subpanel to the garage switch box to feed the garage lights and connect the porch light neutral to the existing neutral feeding the kitchen switch."
That breaks a basic rule. And one that I don't know if it is in the code or not. That is that all currents in a cable or conduit should be net zero. That is all currents flowing in one direction should equal the sum of all currents in the other direction.
I wanted to do something similar, but not as drastic and felt that something was wrong with the concept, but could not figure out what was wrong until 4loran pointed that out to me.
Bill and Sam,
Thank you so much for the great info. With all that has been writen I know I will be able to Nuke this out some night this week. I will keep you posted on how it goes . Thank you all again. Rick.
Bill,
I'm still on my first cup of life, I mean coffee, so maybe that's why I can't see how the 2nd 3-way is switching the lights in numbers B and C. (Actually, I'm just thick headed as usual, but I like the coffee excuse.)
>>That breaks a basic rule. And one that I don't know if it is in the code or not. That is that all currents in a cable or conduit should be net zero. That is all currents flowing in one direction should equal the sum of all currents in the other direction.
Yes, I know. We're looking at less than 3 amps here, <=1amp for the porch ckt and <=2 for the garage side, 3 on the travelers. It's a pure lighting ckt. There should be no GFCIs, and if there is one (at the porch fixture?) it would see a balanced pair.
I'm not saying that this is best or even good custom, however ADesigns is in a fix, and this is at least workable. I did warn him to check with the AHJ first.
Please don't beat me, I tried to be good (|:>0
SamT
Since the 14/3 line between the house and garage is in a "pipe" he should have no problem pulling either a 14/4 or a pair of 14/2 wires through it. All he has to do is disconnect the wires, tie the new wires to the old and pull the new ones through with the old ones. Then the problem is solved.
Dan"Life is what happens when you are making other plans." - John Lennon
"I'm still on my first cup of life, I mean coffee, so maybe that's why I can't see how the 2nd 3-way is switching the lights in numbers B and C. (Actually, I'm just thick headed as usual, but I like the coffee excuse.)"
I don't remember which is which, but;
With the light at the at the first switch. You have the 14/2 feed cable (hot and neutral. ) The hot connects to the first 3 way. Then you have 14/3 between first and 2nd 3way. You have the two travelers. But the 3rd wire connects to the common on the 2nd 3way and it becomes the switched hot and feeds back to the first box. Then the cable to the lights connect between the neutral and the switched hot from the 2nd box.
With the light between the 2 switches. You have the 14/2 feed cable to the first 3way with not connected to the common. Then 14/3 to the light box. 2 wires are the 3way travelers. The 3 wire connects to the feed neutral.
Then from the light box you have a 14/3 to the 2nd 3-way. In the light box the 2 travelers from the first switch connect to the 2 traverls to the 2nd switch. Again the 3 wire connects to the common terminal on the 2nd 3way and becomes switched hot.
So in the light box you have the neutral from the 14/3 from the first switch and the switched hoted fromt he 3rd wired in the 14/3 from the 2nd switch.
BTW, in my case I went ahead and "cheated" once I found out what the rule was. I had to extend a 3 gang box with 1 4-way, 2 single pole switches, power feed, and feed to 3 sets of lights about 3 foot. ! couldn't find an 4 conductor cable and did not want to run to 3 wire, just to jumper it at the other end to extend the 4 wire. So I taped 2 2 wire cables together.
By calcuations I had a big enough box for the junction box, but by the time I got every thing connected and back in their I did not have any space so I am glade that I did this "cheat".
But this case the neutral would come from not only a completely different circuit, but a different pannel. While I don't see any real safety problem from doing this for such a small load my concern is for anyone that runs into this in the future. Even including the person that did it and forgets the trick 5 years from now.
>>my concern is for anyone that runs into this in the future. Even including the person that did it and forgets the trick 5 years from now.
Yeah, Mine too.
In the kitchen switchbox, one would see the feeder 2 wire w/G, the red and black travelers, the white w/red tape, and the 2+G going to the light. It should be self explanatory as the white w/red would be connected to the black of the light feeder along with the neutral from the panel-to-switch feed. BUT, in the garage, the travelers are OK, the light feed is OK, the white w/ tape is understandable, then, there is that lone neutral (maybe 1 wire of a 2+G romex) coming from/going to????? I would want to leave a permanent note in that box.
Dan, I understand that. That's why I told ADesign to check with his AHJ. I am also aware that the lone neutral from the garage subpanel violates NEC 300-3(b): THAT'S WHY I TOLD HIM TO GET THE OK FROM HIS AHJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Electrically it works. It is avarience from the code and will need ok by the AHJ, the ultimate authority in all locations.
jeez
SamT
> That's why I told ADesign to check with his AHJ.
But do you really think that his wife knows that much about the NEC?
I can't cite you chapter and verse, but it's against code (and contrary to good practices from several standpoints) to route the current-carrying conductors of a circuit apart from each other.
In the 1999 NEC it's 300-3(b): "All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, trench, cable, or cord,...." (followed by the inevitable few exceptions).
This is to minimize inductive heating.
Edited 6/2/2004 10:44 am ET by r