OK, very basic for you guys, but still a concern for me:
Bought this house new 2 years ago, the breaker for the kitchen outlets and dishwasher is 20 amp, the wiring is 14 gage. Should I change the breaker to a 15 amp to be safe? If breaker starts popping, I can add a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the DW easy. Should I do that anyway?
How did this pass electrical inspection?
Replies
YES
Very insightful answer. Thanks for your time.
Rusty,
Yes, replace the 20A with a 15A, NOW.
Then run the additional circuit.
How'd it pass inspection? Well, an inspector can't check every circuit and every segment of cable. Passing inspection is no guarantee that everything is correct.
Have you checked for other fundamental mistakes, like miswired outlets or bootleg grounds?
Cliff
Thanks CAP, that's what I figured I should do. It's the only 20A in the whole box. Since I'll be in there changing that breaker, I may as well add another dedicated for the DW.
I've checked every single outlet I can find in the house, and all checked correct with my tester, so I'm feeling confident, just wondering how this 20A got in there.
Good chance the installer ran out of 15's and had a 20 on hand.
Better chance a 15 amp breaker can't hold the load.
Rusty,
When you said you checked outlets with your tester, you weren't referring to something like below, were you?
View Image
If so, be advised that they will not identify false grounds.
If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
Edited 3/13/2003 11:47:05 AM ET by Mr. Pita
Edited 3/13/2003 11:47:47 AM ET by Mr. Pita
Just like that (except orange) but it has a light combination for "Open Ground". Isn't that enough?
Should everyone do a complete electrical inspection when they buy a house that was just built and has supposedly adhered to the strictest and most recent codes and inspections?
For this tester type:
An open ground is detected - this means that there is no wire from the ground screw on the receptacle back to ground (should be back to the panel, but I think it'll register as good if it goes to say a copper water line.)
A false, or bootleg, ground is not detected. The single wire running from receptacle to a copper pipe is one example. This may have been acceptable (not sure) under NEC in the past; but it is no longer acceptable, as far as I know. Another, more dangerous situation, is if there is simply a jumper wire from the ground screw to the neutral. Your tester will see this as a "Correct" outlet, but in fact there is no ground. If an appliance is plugged in, current will flow though the ground portion of the aplliance's circuit, which may include things like a metal housing.
Also, these will not test for ground/neutral reversed. Again, an appliance pulgged into this receptacle may send current where you really don't want it, much as a bootleg ground. Dangerous.
That's the bad news. The worse news is I can't tell you how to check these conditions. There are testers available similar to what you have, that will test these conditions, but they cost ~$200. I use the same type of tester as you use. I simply also will pull a receptacle out from the box (CAREFULLY!) for a visual inspection, and verify the wires are going to the right places. Just knowing that it won't check some conditions has been enough. Since you have new construction, maybe check a sampling of outlets. I think if they're gonna screw up wi open or false grounds, they're gonna do it in more than one place. If your sampling shows one or more instances, then check them all.
Perhaps CAP, or 4lorn1, or the other resident electricians can advise how to test without the more expensive testers, maybe with a simple muilmeter?If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
Thanks Mr. Pita, I'll sample a few as you recommend. I'd like to know if there is a way to do better testing with a multi meter.
"Well, an inspector can't check every circuit and every segment of cable. Passing inspection is no guarantee that everything is correct."
Thats why the NEC went to color-coding wires for 10ga and 12ga. Makes the inspectors job easier.
Scott R.
Scott,
Color coding of wires? When did that happen? I just bought some 14 and 12 and they look the same to me (white).
Jon
>>Thats why the NEC went to color-coding wires for 10ga and 12ga. Makes the inspectors job easier.
What color code do they use? The 12-3 roll I bought recently is yellow, but the 12-2 is still white. As is the 14-2 and 14-3 rolls I've seen. And, some of the rolls of 12-3 I've seen around are also white. What color would 10 gauge be?
If they have, good for them, though they need a color for 14 gauge also. If they haven't, I sure wish they would. One electrical site I went to the electrican there takes his new rolls of wire hangs them up, and paints the sides of the roll with different colors so he can glance at a wire anywhere in a house and know what gauge they are. Seemed like a great idea to me.
Scott--
The color-coding of the romex jacket is NOT an NEC requirement or recommendation. It's a marketing tool of the wire manufacturers. And not all mfgrs are doing it.
Rusty--
AS far as the simple polarity tester, it does have some real limitations. For instance, it won't show a bootleg ground.
As to your question about having the wiring in a new house inspected--it would be a good idea to check each outlet with a polarity tester (as you've done). Even better would be to check them with the Ideal "Sure Test" tester, which does a voltage drop and grounding impedance test, and a couple of other cool tests in addition to a polarity check. I use one to check every outlet in the houses I wire; a final quality assurance step. Pricey, though, at about $300.
Glad to hear that you found only the one problem. Have fun running the new circuit!
Cliff
Cliff,
Is there a simpler method than using a Sure Tester? Say, anything with a multimeter?If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
Mr. PITA,
Well, here's a test you can do. It's not without some risk.
To measure voltage drop, get a space heater or high wattage hair dryer that'll load the circuit up to 80-100 percent of it's rating. Insert the meter leads into one outlet of a duplex, and take a baseline reading. Then have someone fire up the load, let it stabilize, and take a reading. Calculate voltage drop. Be careful if the circuit might be in poor shape; don't let the current run at 100 percent for very long. If you do this at outlets along the circuit (with some assumptions required as to how the circuit is laid out), you might see 5.6%, 5.7%, 6.0%, 11%, 12%. So you have a bad connection between three and four; could be at a device terminal or a splice; less likely, a damaged wire.
The Sure-Test pops a 15 amp (or for the ST1-D, a 15 or 20A) load across the circuit for 8 cycles (about 1/8th of a second). So you get a measurement, but the risk of overheating a bad splice or connection is nil. Not so if you're running a 1800 watt heater for 15 seconds. So you makes your choices and takes your chances, as my Dad used to say.
As far as picking up a bootleg ground with a DMM, you could do it if you wanted to lift (disconnect) the neutral at the panel. You'd use a long test lead and measure the resistance (continuity) from the ground bar at the panel to the far end of the neutral and then the ground. If the neutral is disconnected at both ends, and you have continuity between it and the ground--that's probably a bootleg ground. If the resistance is in the k ohm to meg ohm range, it's probably a high resistance short between neutral and ground. Don't forget to reconnect the neutral. And don't work in a panel unless you know what's still hot when the main breaker is off.
Good luck--
Cliff
There should be a easier way to test for a bootleg ground.
Put on your big load and then measure the voltage between the neutral and ground at that outlet.
It might not show if it is real close to the pannel through.
Well since I'm not an electrician I have to go by what the electrical supply house told me. Last year when they sold me a yellow roll of 12-2 they said it was a new code going into effect 1-1-03 and the other color addition was 10 ga that was orange.
The ease of inspection was the reason given.
Possibly a regional thing?
Scott R.
"True" Romex is color coded. The sheathing is colored: #14 - White; #12 - Yellow; #10 - Orange; #8 and #6 - Black.
http://www.southwire.com/news/010702.htmIf everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
I must not shop anywhere that sells true romex then. I've never seen a roll of 12-2 wire that was yellow, they're all white. Sure would make things easier though. If I was an electrician it'd be worth looking for. As is, I have a new roll of 12-2 should be enough to finish every project I have planned around the house and then some.
But, it's not really an issue for me, the entire house is wired in 12 gauge. Haven't found a piece of 14 Gauge wire anywhere. Certainly not gonna add any.
Went to a local hardware/appliance parts store today to pick up a new baking element for the range. While I was poking around, I came across a number of boxes of white 12-2 Romex, priced at 2-3X ( from $6.50/25 ft to $38.50/250 ft) what the yellow romex normally sells for at HD. In addition, it also wasn't date coded like all the other Romex I've seen. Made by a company called Cerro wire. I guess it has become the new hot commodity, like those cans of *real* freon were for awhile.
http://www.sunmalls.net/cerrowire/ also has it. Isn't $27 for 100 ft of 12/3 a bit steep?
http://www.doityourself.com/store/buildingwirenm.htm
This place has 12/2 for $47/250 ft and 12/3 for $76/250 ft.
Once again, it seems like government regulation has created a black market economy.
Edited 3/16/2003 9:37:58 PM ET by wood
I talked with a local, Florida, inspector about the new cable colors. He likes them as it makes checking the wire sizes easier but he said that it is not a requirement yet. Maybe in a few years it could be a make or break issue. He also noted that even when it becomes a requirement the old stuff will be grandfathered in for a few years. Check with your local inspection or building department to find out as this is likely to vary widely between jurisdictions.
As for the price of romex, NM. Prices vary widely. Mostly limited only be what the market will bear or the laugh factor. Which ever kicks in first. The general rule is that the more you buy the lower the cost and shops that don't turn over as much also raise the price. Often exceeding the laugh factor for anyone who knows better.
The home center prices, at least for 250' rolls or larger, are pretty competitive with supply house charges. 8 to 10 cents per foot for 12/2 w/gr is about right. Maybe a little less if you spring for the 1000' roll. Buying a stack of 10' rolls is much more costly. Buy from an appliance store and your looking at 40 cents or more per foot.
I hate to be vague about supply house prices but nailing down the actual cost at many supply houses is complicated. Many don't have a set price for items. They have a list price, a fallback price for people who walk in, that's much higher than what a contractor pays with an account. There is a discount applied to the list price. This varies among contractors according to a negotiated rate, history of purchases and, sometimes, how much they like you. This determines the amount billed on the receipt handed to the tradesman.
But even this is not what is actually paid as there is also some form of monthly, yearly or the total amount charged in the history of the account discount. A contractor spending $100,000 a year gets a discount. An account at $100,000 a month bet even more of a discount and there is, just to make things so obscure that no one knows what was actually paid, a discount for monthly or yearly paying off the account/s.
In the end many contractor don't know what the actual cost of any particular item is. The myth is that the supply houses are always cheaper. The few times I have seen a contractor try to nail down a cost to the last cent it took the combined efforts of both the company secretary and a man at the supply house more than 4 hours and there were still doubts as to the accuracy of the final figure. This is another reason that contractor often use price guides. Without knowing what you paid it would be hard to justify a reasonable mark up. Price guides calculate a mark up and are accepted in court as customary.
Truly and really the BEST solution is to replace your wiring! Two small appliance ckts rated 20 amps are required by code in a kitchen.
I think the only thing that isn't 12 gage is the DW. Maybe that is a screw up by the appliance installer. I'll check tonight. If everything else in the circuit is 12 gage, I'll just leave the 20A breaker on that circuit, and run another 15A circuit dedicated to the DW.
Change out to 15A on this circuit. By code, you are supposed to have 2 20A appliance circuits, so if you don't already have 'em, run 'em new.
So it's (2) 20A circuits now? What code is this being that my house is less than 2 years old? I only have 4 appliance outlets in the whole kitchen.
Rusty,
First, I'd be safe and make sure that the 20A circuit has only 12 gauge wires. If not, switch out to a 15A breaker.
Next, I'd check to see what my warranty was on the house. The wiring is inadequate at least in the kitchen. The builder should pay to fix this.
If you run any new circiuts, (and it's my opinion that you should run several more circuits for the kitchen/DW) get a permit and have the work inspected. And while you're at it you could ask the inspector to go over the house with a fine tooth comb to see if there are any other problems.
Can't remember ... does a garbage disposal need its own circuit? You may be short one here if this is the requirement.
John
Thanks john, I'll be checking for 12 gage tonight. After reading everyone's response, I intend to add a dedicated circuit to the DW. I'm no electrician obviously, but I don't agree with the kitchen wiring being considered inadequate (except for this DW issue which was installed by the appliance store, not the builder) The 20A circuit only has 4 outlets on it, 2 of which are GFI, the refrigerator has its own circuit and the range has its own circuit.
I don't have a garbage disposer, but there is another outlet with its own circuit under the sink and it's breaker has be off ever since we moved in. Judging from the outstanding care and efficiency that the wiring was ran, and how emaculate the inside of the breaker box looks with everything being labeled and neatly placed, I don't think any corners were cut. But I'll check with the local inspector as you've instructed.
One circuit for a kitchen is inadequate and the code requires more ... as others have stated. You could have a toaster running at the same time as a coffee maker at the same time as your wife is running the mixer for baking ... you get the idea.
You may not have anything happen, yet, that tripped the breaker, but it's just a matter of time.
And it sounds like the wiring was set up for a disposal, with a separate circuit, which is good. If there's an issue with running a second circuit from the box, you could use the disposal circuit for countertop circuits ... as long as you don't install a disposal later.
Is the wiring run in conduit? If so, you might be able to fish extra wires from the box to the box which starts the run. These wires could be for another circuit or two and that would give you what the builder should have given you in the first place.
John
He he...I'm all messed up johnhardy! I got home and checked and I do have 2 circuits in the kitchen for appliances (which explains 2 GFI's). Both are 20A and both are 12 gage wiring, so once I reroute the DW to its own breaker, I should be all set. Thanks for the help.
Rusty,
I not to understand your "I intend to add a dedicated circuit to the DW". Is it--
I intend to add a dedicated circuit to the Dry Wall? Why?
I intend to add a dedicated circuit to the DeWalt? Is your yellow tool cordless?
I intend to add a dedicated circuit to the Dear Wife? Law & Order is always looking for new ideas.
So which is it?
As for the matter of using a multi-meter to detect a bootleg ground---
There should be a slight reduction in resistance if your ground wire and your neutral wires are connected in parallel. I wouldn't suggest actually doing this but theoretically you could measure the voltage [very accurately with a digital voltmeter] between the hot and the neutral and then between the hot and the ground. Write these down but they should be the same. Then use a bare wire !!! to jumper between the ground and neutral slots and again test the voltage between the jumper and the hot. Theoretically this should show a slightly higher voltage [due to less resistance] if you have a true, properly connected ground. The reading would be the same if you have a bootleg ground. But then again, if the distance to the panel is short, there won't be any real difference.
Hope this doesn't discombubulate you,
~Peter
SUV = expensive modern day station wagon.
Dishwasher.
DW = DishWasher =Designer Wife = Designated Wife
Now I get it.
~Peter
I intend to add a dedicated circuit to DelaWare.
PM22, this entire thread has been about my DISH WASHER (DW) being wired with a 14 gage wire on a 20 amp circuit. I didn't realize you hadn't read the first message from me. Why would I rewire my DeWalt drill or my Dry Wall or my dear wife? Come on man, most people like to abbreviate in this forum and if you don't agree with us doing that, sorry, but get used to it.
Edited 3/14/2003 8:52:31 AM ET by rusty
I am not an electrician but it seems like there is some confusion on your dishwasher (dw). At first you said there was only one 20 amp breaker, then two for the kitchen receptacles. After rereading most of the posts it seems that you house is probably wired correctly. You said the installer used 14 for the dishwasher, if he used a stub of 14 to connect the dw to a junction box I believe this is ok. My Maytag says a max load of 12A. In some jurisdictions there are disconnect issues for dw's and disposals. I prefer to use an appropriately rated pigtail for both and plug in to a single outlet receptacle. This gives you a positive service disconnect to work on the appliance.
Another thing I believe is still correct is that you do not have to retrofit to come up to new code changes, ( grandfather, sleeping dogs, etc), that said there are things that were legal 40 years ago that are pretty scary. Then again if we leave everything up to the government we will have air bags on bicycles.
Hope the pros will correct any of these if it is needed.
There's confusion because I didn't know what I was talking about in the beginning. I do have (2) 20 amp circuits wired with 12 gage. One of the circuits has been tapped into with about 24" of 14 gage wire for the dish washer. My plan is to "untap" that 14 gage and run new 14 gage to its own breaker for the dish washer. But now you don't think this is necessary because it's only a stub of 14 gage and nothing else but the dish washer is on it? I hope you're right, it would save me some time and money to leave it alone. I've never had kitchen breaker open since I've been there.
Once again please rely on what the real electricians tell you, I was just trying to make sure all had the correct situation in mind. If you do run a new "home run" use 12 rather than 14. The only time it makes sense to me to use 14 is single runs to lights or switch legs to lights. Only other consideration is when you have an existing box and wire fill is about maxed out. The smaller wire is a little easier to work with and works great for ground jumpers in a box also. If you run 12 and decide to put in a higher draw appliance later you are set. As others have said the cost difference is pretty insignificant if you aren't buying thousands of feet.
If you have a recpt. under the sink with it's own unused 20 amp breaker I don't see why you cannot use it if it is close enough to the DW. If I understood what you were saying about the current hookup they tapped into one of the other circuits. I do not believe that this is the greatest. If it is not too far from the disposal recpt. you could run armored (MC) or other protected wire from that to the DW. I ran "smurf" for my DW and disposal with no gripe from inspector. Not sure whether legal or not but I have hooked up DW's and disposals using the heavy duty appliance extension cords with the female end cut off and appropriate strain relief, etc. This is only in protected area, if running in accessable cabinet should/must be secured and protected. The really heavy ones are rated for 15amps you can usually purchase cords designed for both appliances.
Unless you local inspection dept are real jerks you should be able to go to them and sit down with this question and get the definitive answer. This should be something the homeowner should be able to do. A new circuit probably should have a permit.
Edited 3/14/2003 1:51:36 PM ET by RASCONC
"please rely on what the real electricians tell you"
Oh, of course. I'm still going to ask the local inspector and maybe call an electrician to ask him. Thanks for the 12 gage idea, I'll do that.
Rusty,
Sorry to have piffed you off.
FWIW, AFAICT sometimes the use of abbrvs. & acronyms on the Internet sometimes goes too far. IMHO. "DW" is a special case which I was just making fun of.
Now here's the low down on the Code--
If your circuit is protected by a 20 amp breaker, you must use [at least] #12 wire. You cannot use #14 wire even for 24" extension. You can use #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker -- perhaps for voltage drop of convenience reasons.
~Peter
I wasn't pi55ed at all PM22, you're here helping me out and I appreciate that, I just worded my response poorly.
I talked to a residential electrician before reading your post, and he said exactly what you just wrote, so I just got done fixing it right.
Thanks for your time and help.
Not only that, but if your building department uses NEC, outlets along countertops can be spaced no more than 4 feet apart and must be GFCI within 6' of the sink. If you have only 4 outlets you either have a very small kitchen or the electrician AND inspector were not paying attention.
I have the correct number of outlets: most of my counter is away from the wall...it's L shaped. The portion against the wall is about 11 feet and has 3 outlets w/2 GFcI's as you've described by the sink. A 4th outlet is in the side of the last cabinet of the L shape.
Wiley,
Just to clarify the island/receptacle question a bit. I recently redid my kitchen and there are loads of outlets and circuits. There is a portion of the cabinets which jut out into the room, open on both sides and clear on top, forming an "attached island". there are two circuits and their associated receptacles on the wall at the end of the island. In the middle of the island is a cooktop and underneath the cooktop, behind a door, is a receptacle for the cooktop (electric start). No other receptacles are on the island, which is about 6 feet long. Is this code? The inspector didn't say anything.
John
This is from the 99 NEC. There have been minor changes in 2002 NEC, one of which increases the allowed height of outlets above the counter top to cover plug-mold strips mounted on the bottom of the upper cabinets. Also I think that the wording of the iland requiments might have been changed slightly.
Min of 2 20amp small appliance circuits. Only recptacles, but can also supply recptacles in pantry or dinning room.
Each counter top 12" wide or wider needs a recptacle.
No point allow the wall more than 24" from recptacle (4ft spacing).
At least one recptacle on an island top greater than 24" long dimension or 12" short.
Peninsular counter tops. At least one recpt with a long dimension greater than 24" or short dimension 12" or greater (measured from the connecting edge - I think that is the inside edge, but not sure).
Must be above counter top and no more than 18" about. Recpt for fixed appliance (refig) can be on these circuits, but recptacles that are "hidden" by fixed appliances don't count for the require min.
There is an execption for islands, penisulars, and handycapped for recptacles to be no lower than 12" below countertop, except where counter top extends more than 6" from the base.
ALL recptacles in a kitchen used to service the counter top must be GFCI protected. There is no 6 ft rule.