So I’m staring at the ceiling trying to remember what little I’ve gleaned about electricity.
1 – white means ground
2 – red or black means power/live
The pendant lamp that I have in front of me is more “modern” & has a clear double wire that’s been split into 2 at the top (er the part where it’s supposed to hook into the ceiling) AND a bare copper “wire” that’s actually a bunch of thin copper wires twisted together. I’m looking at the ceiling and I have 3 wires all of which seem to be black. 2 are twisted together and have a yellow cap with wings on it. The other black wire has a black cap on it.
I would like to put the darn lamp up tonight WITHOUT setting fire to my hair, the ceiling OR the lamp (can you tell electricity makes me a teeny bit nervous?). I do not have a handy tool that will tell me which one of these wires are “live”. The lightswitch is off (I did this before removing the old light).
What does the bunch of bare twisted copper wires do? Am I supposed to use it somehow? The other 2 wires are coated in clear insulation. What do I do with these? Any help would be appreciated and I’ve got a digital camera, if pictures are needed.
A little judicial creative tool application & 2 tacky ceiling fixtures (one black w/tickytacky green metal ribbons & a glass bowl and the other eye blindingly bright brass w/alabaster bowls)aquired for 30USD have been turned into an elegant alabaster bowl w/fake wrought iron details for the diningroom & a bright brass and alabaster pendant hall light. Sometimes I’m so good that I amaze myself.
Replies
"1 - white means ground"
White is the neutral. AKA the grounded conductor because it is grounded a the service entrance (typically the main panel).
"2 - red or black means power/live"
Those would be the "hot" wire. Depending on how it is wired they might be only hot when the ligth is switched on.
A ground wire would be bare or green.
"I have 3 wires all of which seem to be black. 2 are twisted together and have a yellow cap with wings on it. The other black wire has a black cap on it."
" I've got a digital camera, if pictures are needed."
Yes a picture of the ceiling box would help.
About how old is the house?
IIRC you are in the Chicago area. Is the wiring ing conduit?
You list 3 wires in the box. Are they in one conduit or cable? or multiple ones.
What What was there before and how was it connected?
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The OP said: The lightswitch is off (I did this before removing the old light).
Bill: For future reference, I always thought it was necessary to kill the power at the panel. Does putting the switch to "off" suffice? I'm no electrician, obviously.
"For future reference, I always thought it was necessary to kill the power at the panel. "That is certainly the best.However it even that does not guarantee "no problems".It might be part of a multiwire circuit it is not on a 2 pole breaker. And tht is legal if both legs of the multiwire circuit is not on the same device.There might be a comletely unrelated circuit in the box.And, as was mentioned in another thread recently, sometime two circuits are illegally tied togehter.OTOH if it is a simple power to switch to fixture or switch leg wired and the switch was properly installed in the correct leg then you can get by with just turning off the switch..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
if it is in the city of Chicago and in pipe, the pipe serves as the ground. in most instances.
"if it is in the city of Chicago and in pipe, the pipe serves as the ground. in most instances."Yes, that is why I asked that question.And it would explain why there might not be the standard compliment of colors onthe wires as they could pull any combination.But it still does not explain 3 wires with 2 connected together..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
When you removed the old light you probably disconnected a white, a black, and probably unscrewed a bare copper ground wire from a green screw up in the ceiling box.
The two clear insulated wired are slightly different from each other, one of them has a slight ridge on it that you can feel with your finger nail. It goes back where the black wire came off and the un-ridged one goes where the white wire came off.
If there is no ridge or you get it backwards no big deal light bulbs wired in reverse don't give off darkness, the design is supposed to be that the nipple on the end of the bulb is hot and the threaded sleeve is neutral but it will work backwards just fine.
The bare stranded wire goes where the bare copper came off generally a green screw up inside the box.
Try to do this with out getting fingerprints all over the ceiling.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
"one of them has a slight ridge on it that you can feel with your finger nail. It goes back where the black wire came off and the un-ridged one goes where the white wire came off."The wire with the rib is the NEUTRAL..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ribbed is NEUTRAL? Thanks for setting me straight on that. I've had it backwards for years, mostly just use the clear stuff for speaker wiring though. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Whenever I am not sure I check a lamp.The wide blade on the plug is the neutral and check the cord on that side..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"Ribbed is NEUTRAL? Thanks for setting me straight on that."The way my Dad (born in 1919) explained it to me was that, "The marked wire is the ground". In the old days, all insulation was rubber, thus black. They painted the ground (what we now call neutral) white, thus "marking" it. Same thing with screws. All the screws were brass, but they plated the one used for the ground. It's not that it looks white that makes it the ground, it's that it's "marked". Same thing applies to zip cord. The neutral either has a rib, multiple ribs, or a string in with the conductors. This made sense to me, but my Dad did have some strange ideas (miss him anyway).
My father was a tradesman as well and I still have some of my grandfathers (on both sides tools. Someday it would be good to do a thread on all the subtle things we picked up from our forefathers. I still carry my dad's watch and I keep his hip flask full of his favorite scotch. (Dewars White Label) He had an obsessive compulsion to test batteries and I have a collection of his old battery testers and multi-meters in my studio.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
..............the design is supposed to be that the nipple on the end of the bulb is hot and the threaded sleeve is neutral but it will work backwards just fine.it will work but it creates a dangerous condition, when lamps are being installed if someone should accidently touch the threaded part of the lamp while they are hanging onto the fixture they could get a nasty shock.
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And then there is circuits that someone has switched the neutral side..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
there is that too ! just sitting there waiting for someone to grab it.
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Sorry for the delay but by the time I finally got the light to work (it's ALIVE, it's ALIVE!!) everyone here was asleep & my vision was blurry, so I crashed. I called my brother, who even in the midst of a party, managed to walk me thru it. I connected each one of the "clear" wires from the lamp to the single black wire in the ceiling box & the 2nd "clear" wire to the 2 black wires that were twisted together. The bare copper wire (that's really a bunch of copper strands)I put thru a tiny hole in something I found called a strap (I was doing research online to find proper terminology) & wrapped it around the strap. The hardest part was getting the lamp fastened to the hardware in the ceiling. The box up there is original to the house (majority of the house wiring has been redone because it USED to be knob & tube-very cool but made me jittery), so around 1920-30s. Sears house. I still have the original light fixture in the "vestibule", on the outside over the front door & over the garage door.A little judicial creative tool application & 2 tacky ceiling fixtures (one black w/tickytacky green metal ribbons & a glass bowl and the other eye blindingly bright brass w/alabaster bowls)aquired for 30USD have been turned into an elegant alabaster bowl w/fake wrought iron details for the diningroom & a bright brass and alabaster pendant hall light. Sometimes I'm so good that I amaze myself.
2nd light question WITH pictures this time. The last light I'm trying to hang has something missing. I'm hoping that I can purchase this part at a local hardware store or something. It is called a "canopy". I picked up 2 lamps from ReStore (it's a store that sells odd bits & the proceeds go to Habitat for Humanity- way cool stuff, from granite to tile to cabinets & trim to windows, to appliances). I put bits of one lamp on another and was able to hang that one last night.When I looked at the second lamp, I realized that the piece that I thought would go to the ceiling doesn't have anything in it to fasten to the box in the ceiling. I'm hoping to just take the "black" part to the local ACE & ask if they have something that I could use.What worries me is that the bowl below is alabaster, thicker than glass & is heavy. I need something sturdy up there to hold the weight. The black bars w/the hooks are metal, so should be sturdy enough. I need a nice looking black metal canopy that will fasten to the ceiling.I have tried researching online but I suspect that I'm using incorrect terminology. It is amazing what gets pulled up when you use the word canopy on google.A little judicial creative tool application & 2 tacky ceiling fixtures (one black w/tickytacky green metal ribbons & a glass bowl and the other eye blindingly bright brass w/alabaster bowls)aquired for 30USD have been turned into an elegant alabaster bowl w/fake wrought iron details for the diningroom & a bright brass and alabaster pendant hall light. Sometimes I'm so good that I amaze myself.
Sorry, forgot the photos.A little judicial creative tool application & 2 tacky ceiling fixtures (one black w/tickytacky green metal ribbons & a glass bowl and the other eye blindingly bright brass w/alabaster bowls)aquired for 30USD have been turned into an elegant alabaster bowl w/fake wrought iron details for the diningroom & a bright brass and alabaster pendant hall light. Sometimes I'm so good that I amaze myself.
I agree with maddog.......that thing wants some chain and a canopy kit, available from a hardware store. You might have to buy the kit in brass or white and spray it black.
You're in Western Mass, huh? I drop in on Restore once in a while.....good place.
Ed
pl is out past Chicago.
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Yeah I just looked at his profile.
I thought he was talking about this place in Springfield, MA that sells used building materials, unless maybe they ship http://www.restoreonline.org/
Ed
I believe plantlust......... is a she :).
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Restore is a part of HforH. Many of the local chapters have Restore stores.In the Kansas City area they are opening a 2nd one.This one is suppose to have higher end stuff..Here is the link to all of the stores in the US. Another one for Canada.http://www.habitat.org/cd/env/restore.aspx
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 11/11/2007 12:03 pm by BillHartmann
..."I need a nice looking black metal canopy that will fasten to the ceiling."might think about some nice black chain to hang between the canopy and the fixture, since it appears to be a pendant style to me.
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I wonder if it still has some knob and tube wiring. Where the hot and neutral are not run together. And in this case the box is used to also suply a switched not to another box and just a single neutral is brought in.Otherwise the 2 blacks spliced together and the single black don't make any sense..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
she did say there was K&T in the house , it's probably still hiding in the attic..
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There were remnants of K&T wiring in the attic...before it got changed to 2 bedrooms, a bath & hallway w/nook. My brother & father are electrical engineers so did all that stuff. I got a professional to upgrade the box in the basement first (BEFORE I bought the house-still shudder about my stupidity sometimes) because of the loan requirements.I'm thinking that whoever disconnected the lamp didn't take the "stuff" off the ceiling too. Additional chains would make it too long. It's at about 23inches now, which is very close to perfect.The loop at the top unscrews & comes off. Is there somekind of conversion kit? Something to turn it from a loop-for-chains to a canopy-to-attach-to-the-ceiling?I did stop at my local ACE & they had a rather limited selection. I told the Helpful Hardware Person that I would remove the lamp that I already have in the ceiling & see if anything she showed me would work. Otherwise I will go to a lighting/electrical store. I'm going for instant gratification because not having the right terminology is killing the google searches.A little judicial creative tool application & 2 tacky ceiling fixtures (one black w/tickytacky green metal ribbons & a glass bowl and the other eye blindingly bright brass w/alabaster bowls)aquired for 30USD have been turned into an elegant alabaster bowl w/fake wrought iron details for the diningroom & a bright brass and alabaster pendant hall light. Sometimes I'm so good that I amaze myself.
sadly it appears that you will have to hang that fixture....perhaps you could keep the chain as a sort as possible which WILL require someone else holding the fixture while you wire it ..or you could go '70s and swag the fixture only slightly away from the junction box..that will allow you to wire it while it is suspended either way you need a canopy with a loop to hang some length of decorative chain through.
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Ok , I found this online place there are some examples of the parts you MAY need to hang that fixture:http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/13-39-misc-lamp-parts.aspx.
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and here is what I'm thinking you would use at the ceiling box:http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/13-39-misc-lamp-parts/screw-collar-loop-kit-600378.aspx
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Edited 11/11/2007 6:35 pm by maddog3
canopy with "hook" or "eye"
and one link to connect the two.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
this place may be close...
http://www.evergreenoak.com/locations.cfm?main=locations&sub=5#hours.the Lisle store used to carry everything, but I haven't been there in over 20 years.
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Is there somekind of conversion kit? Something to turn it from a loop-for-chains to a canopy-to-attach-to-the-ceiling?
Yes. All you gotta do is
1) buy a canopy kit where the canopy supports the fixture itself, using a fixture bar and 8/32 machine screws http://www.cornerhardware.com/angelo_rib_canopy_kit/6756_7004_7979/1958
2) remove the loop from the top of your fixture
3) drill holes in the existing fixture canopy to match the new canopy
4) throw away the new canopy but use the included mounting hardware to hang your fixture.
You might have mess around with the various parts to make it work, but with all that engineering your family I'm sure it will work out.
Ed
Ed
You say the new old lamp with alabaster shade is heavy. If you mount it to the electrical box in the ceiling, you should test first to make sure that old box is sturdy enough to support the weight. If not, you will need a new box intended for ceiling fan installation or swag kit to hang it from the nearest ceiling joist.If the round or octagon electrical box in the ceiling is sturdy enough, you can drill two holes in the existing canopy of the lamp at the same distance apart as the two screw holes in the edge of the box. Your hardware store will have some screws of appropriate length if the existing ones are too short.BruceT
You guys should be a national treasure!Naperville is right next door & Lisle is a sneeze over. I took tomorrow off (fingers crossed it doesn't turn into a root canal) & am taking the hardware with me. I'll stop in afterwards, hopefully they'll be able to understand me thru the drool. I'm pulling down the Victorian lamp now, so I can see what's up there. Hmmmm, y'know, I should be documenting this w/the camera. Could be useful for someone else...A little judicial creative tool application & 2 tacky ceiling fixtures (one black w/tickytacky green metal ribbons & a glass bowl and the other eye blindingly bright brass w/alabaster bowls)aquired for 30USD have been turned into an elegant alabaster bowl w/fake wrought iron details for the diningroom & a bright brass and alabaster pendant hall light. Sometimes I'm so good that I amaze myself.
The Naperville location directed me to wear all the parts are...Lisle. I removed the light that is there now & took some photos. The wiring on this light is more obvious than the hallway was. White wire & Red wire. Fingers crossed that this will be a cakewalk..er, except for the one-hand-holding-the-HEAVY-alabaster-bowl while the other-hand-tries-to-manipulate-screws-and-wires part. More detailed photos below:
plantlust, it looked like you could leave the bowl off of the new fixture while you make the connections on the ceiling.....
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Yup. The people at the Crest location (in Lisle) said the same thing, ESPECIALLY when they found out about the alabaster bowl. Great people, extremely helpful, especially when it comes to a challenge AND couldn't believe that I got such a deal for both fixtures.
good, I'm glad things are working out....
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please look at attached picture
And the GRAND UNVEILING. Finally got the darned thing up there. Mind you, not without some minor pain (stupid fingers aren't skinny enough to get that canopy closer to the ceiling). Really appreciate all your help!Zeeya - (cringing abit) Ummm, it's not there anymore & there was a teeny gap between the canopy & the ceiling?
razafrazin photo didn't attach Well, the feeling that someone took a jackhammer to my jaw has faded to a faint dull ache. Did you know that a dental drill sounds like a Dremel tool?
That looks great!If you want to hide the electrical box completely, A fixture like yours would look great with a ceiling medallion above it. They sell foam ones in all sorts of sizes and styles at Lowes, Home Depot, and molding supply stores; or online:
http://store.balmer.com/balmer6/ceiling-medallions.html
http://www.rensup.com/Search-Results/Ceiling-Medallions.htm
BruceT
Very nice ceiling medallions. They cost more than the fixture cost me<g>.I would have to take down the light, in order to put up the medallion, right? (sigh) Well the feeling that someone used a jackhammer on my jaw has faded to a faint dull ache. Did you know that a dental drill sounds like a Dremel tool?
yep......:) gotta take it back down.
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The simpler styles that HD and Lowes have run $12-25.And they have at least one model that is split so you only need to loosen the canaopy to slide it under.But they are as nice as those in the link..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
THANKS FOR CLEARING THAT UP .
GET THAT MEDALLION IT'LL MAKE A JOB WELL DONE EVEN BETTER AND GOOD LUK WITH THE REST OF YOUR PROJECT
Looks like public opinion is leaning towards a medallion. I would paint it a dull black, to match the hardware. Not too ornate, slightly larger than the canopy, right? Before I forget, attached is the other new old lamp. It's in the hallway next to the diningroom. Somehow the shiny brass finish is growing on me, only on the hallway lamp tho<G>. Hallway, bathroom, foyer & livingroom are the next project. Bloody hell! The mouzies are baaaaack!
Naperville is right next door
Small world, was put up in the Hilton there, while commuting over past Ferimlabs to West Chicago while GPM taught me about CNC. (Dumb commute, but not down to me.) Did get to drive through what had been a two-lane asphalt road through the corn fields between Glen Ellyn & WHeaton back in '68-69, though . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I worked on the Hilton when it was going up... and out at Fermi at D zero can't stand what they did to the area,
especially those two matching AT&T /Lucent 600,000 s.f. monstrosities across Warrenville Road.
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can't stand what they did to the area
Shoot, I'm not sure the "shock" of the difference between '69 and '91 means I can even make rational observations. I mean, really, our F&J subdiv proudly had 23W, for 23 miles west, prefixed to all the addresses. GE & Wheaton are mostly metrochicagoland, near as I could tell back then.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
that's true, but it just may as well be one big town since the land grabs during the 80s and 90s have pretty much blurred any distinction between all of the "little " towns out that way...
Naperville runs all the run south to Plainfield
and Bolingbrookheck, they consider where I live ......70 miles East of Chicago as metro chicago.
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Errrr, there are no more corn fields between Glen Ellyn & Wheaton. Heck, I can barely find cornfields by me now. In fact when I moved out here, I was thrilled to see the Milky Way (first time I ever remembered seeing it-note to self take niece & nephews somewhere w/a telescope). I still see stars but no longer the Milky Way...
there are no more corn fields between Glen Ellyn & Wheaton
Weren't that many in '69, really--just encircling our subdiv <g>
Really, I did know that part, one of my best bros from college graduated Wheaton HS--seeing is different from hearing it, though.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
that someone has switched the neutral side
And, there's a level below Dante's last in Perdidtion for those who do that (and make anonymous blocks xref-dependant circular references in ACAD drawings, too--not that I'm bitter or hating engineers right now anything) . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
No ... you probably didn't do any of that.
You probably have an older house with older wiring - maybe a braided cloth cover over rubber-insulated wire. The box is probably old metal and may, or may not be grounded. There likely isn't a ground wire. What is the date of your house? Pre-WWII??
Pretty simple - connect one of the fixture leads under one cap and the other to the other one - doesn't matter if they are 'backwards'. I'd get a green ground screw and loop the bare copper ground (bare braided wire) over it (screwing it to the box), or barring that, make sure that there is good contact between the box and the fixture ground wire.
As Bill noted, the ridged fixture wire is supposed to go to the neutral, if you can tell which one it is.
Of course, you don't know if the box is grounded without testing with a multimeter, which I doubt you have.
That should work, although you won't know if your fixture is grounded.
Jeff
Edited 11/10/2007 10:24 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
The "cap" (actually a wire nut) color has no convention asociated with it circuit/wire wise. Even if there was I would not consider it. They are sized for different combinations of wire capacity and the color indicates that. The very old ones had several sizes in black but they were mostly a brass sleeve with a set screw and black cap.
For most situations as you describe you should find a yellow one unless there are several pass through wires joined to the lamp wire. The new tan colored ones have a wider range of wire combinations than the old orange, yellow, red series.
Bob
>>has a clear double wire that's been split into 2 ....
Sounds like someone wired it with zip cord or even speaker wire!
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=