So there I am at my friend’s house, setting tile and minding my own business (edit: I have done the majority of the work on a medium size remodel at the house in question, am not the GC). The electricians were there doing undercabinet lighting for the new cabinets, and also redoing a few fixtures and putting in a floor outlet in the maple floor.
As I was walking outside, I heard a Sawzall in the crawlspace. I knew right away something was off…so I went and looked at his 3″ hole for the floor outlet – right smack dab in the middle of the joist. I went below and told him to stop, but he had already cut through 3/4 of the joist, and to make it worse, another joist was headered off of that one.
Poor showing…his excuse was that there was no way to fix the maple floor because it was t & g. Considering I installed the floor two months ago and there was a whole box of it in the garage (prefinished, too), all I could do was shake my head.
He was pretty young, in his 20s (but so am I). I tried to be nice, but told the guy he should NEVER cut floor joists. Anyways, it will probably only cost them a couple hundred bucks, I can hanger a new joist off of a carrying beam down there.
Anyone think he would have said anything if I wasn’t there to notice?
Edited 4/17/2008 8:50 pm ET by jesse
Replies
I'm confused. Are you the builder?
The remodeler, yeah. But the owners are acting as the GC. But since they are my best friends, I figured I should step in and do something...especially since I will be the guy to fix it.
I know that you are not the GC, however you have taken on the role. I find that meeting with the subs and discussing what needs to be done with all areas of the project alleviates babysitting issues in the future. I met w/ the plumber today on the job I'm on know and I asked him if he needed anything so that he didn't have to compromise my work. He told me that he wished everyone was as easy.
Dustin
Yeah, well, in this case, the cabinet company referred the electricians to wire the undercabinet lights, I didn't even know the homeowners talked to them about the floor outlets. It's really not my deal, until someone screws up. /rolling eyesI'm just glad I was there and happened to be walking through the living room instead of holed up in the bathroom with my ipod cranked, doing the most complex tile shower I've ever attempted.
So, your friends are the GC ?
and you didn't know they talked to him ?I always find it humorous that its the ..........( fill in the blank) fault and not theirs..
did they even bother to qualify this twenty-something before he started work on something he wasn't referred to dobecause it sounds like this guy is good at hanging cabinet lights, ........ and that's allbut you managed to save the day and t it's always somebodys fault except the "GC " ... what are their qualifications , that they let some one just start cutting holes in the floor.
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I fail to see your point. Two licensed electricians in two fancy vans with their name on the side should be able to install an outlet without compromising the structural integrity of a house.
I don't have to follow my electrician or plumber around making sure they don't wreck stuff. If I did they wouldn't be my subs. That the guy is a complete meathead couldn't have been anticipated. It's like giving your keys to the valet parking attendant and watching him drive straight into a tree.
Edited 4/18/2008 1:02 am ET by fingersandtoes
read it again, your friends are just as incompetentand I have never seen a van install anything.
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His point is that when DIY HOs try to function as GCs without knowing what they are doing, this kind of screw-up is common and they are at least as responsible for it as the young unsupervised electricican is.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, I disagree. If the electrician would have stopped after discovering the joist, no big deal. I could have easily patched the floor.But when he cut the floor joist, he failed miserably. Do you really think the owners bear responsibility? Electricians work for homeowners all the time. I told the homeowners I would fix it and they can back bill the electrical contractor. Is that wrong?
Jesse,I think you handled it well. Plumbers and electricians should be give the IRC notching and boring chart and pay attention to the part about how far in from the ends.How bout some pics of the intricate tile work.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
We aren't talking notching, he cut a 3" piece out of the middle of the joist. The whole thing...it's now two shorter joists. I'll put up some pics in a few days.
There is not a thing wrong with what you did. I'd have done about the same, and the sparky should be backbilled.The thing that is wrong is when HOs try to GC and expect somebody else to supervise for them. Being a GC is a skilled job that demands time and attention instead of letting just anybody with a sign on the van go in and start hacking away
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The thing that is wrong is when HOs try to GC and expect somebody else to supervise for them.
We don't really know that this is the case. I know that my subs have done some bonehead things in the past. And I have had to deal with it. Rarely does something of this nature involve backbilling the sub. I just fix it and put them in debt to me. This pays off doubly when I need something done in a hurry.
In Jesse's case, his friends will still have to suffer the consequences. They will have to hire him to fix the mess and have to come to an agreement with the electrician over the cost. This is something that we do without giving it a second thought but it is one of the reasons we earn out money. They will be earning the money they saved.
If his friends thought that somebody else was going to supervise for them, they got what they paid for.
Edited 4/18/2008 9:35 pm ET by Schelling
As a former project manager (and also in my 20s):Back-charging the electrician is the appropriate action. He frakked up, period.Unless I'm completely misinformed - I'm not an electrician - there is no excuse for the electrician not to know that what he did is a no-no. Is he actually a journeyman? My understanding is that perforating a joist incorrectly can result in a failed inspection. All kinds of things violate code, like drilling a hole above or below another one. Bisecting a joist is, in comparison, incomprehensible.I agree 100% with the 'stuck on stupid' observation, though. I've got a few chestnuts along those lines.
it's their house !
they should have a grasp of what is under the floor !
they should have located the outlet before anyone started cutting !
they are the GC, weren't they on the job ? I agree the electrician should be back charged, just don't lay all the blame on him even if he is boneheaded perhaps he cut the opening exactly where the GC wanted it .....I have had those discussions too.
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I'm confused, if you're not the builder you should ignore major hack work?
Barry E-Remodeler
No - he should inform the builder of the problem. Then the builder resolves the problem with the involved sub(s) and whatever other resources are required. Each sub works for the GC - I assume. I'm always very grateful when one of my subs inform me of a problem - weather it involves their trade or not since it speaks to their integrity, but since I inspect all my subs work it generally isn't necessary although anyone can miss something. Sounds like he is doing the builders job for him, for free. It's a good thing since he says they are best friends and it sounds like a DIY GC.
Almost seems like the GC would have located the exact location for a floor outlet - my electrician requires it. They charge $135 for a floor outlet - and it's not just because those brass floor boxes are expensive. I'm guessing it's because of the liability involved.
I've noticed that, at times, pay scale is inversely related to intelligence quotient. Electricians and plumbers, especially the ones under 30 yrs of age, seem to have the market cornered when it comes to out and out stupidity. Once they get a little older, something happens and the majority gain some awareness but it's a difficult climb with considerable resistance, others remain doomed to a life of permanent disability.
Mind you, I don't want to imply that all plumbers and electricians are afflicted with this, it just seems that the incidence of "stuck on stupid" hits them more then the other trades. One of my best friends is an electrician but to date, there are no plumbers in the list.
There are lots of messes like that out there. Day before yesterday I seen a place where two floor joist were cut up half way from the bottom, about 10 inches from the wall, then it looked like they just smacked it with a hammer and split it out of the way.
Sad part was if they would have thought about it the drain realy didn't have to go through there.
My father and both of my grandfathers were carpenters, so I had an understanding of what the wood was there for, before I became a plumber.
This has always baffled me, that electricians and plumbers, especially plumbers, have no concept of how what they're doing will affect later events. I hired a plumber to run a gas line from my basement to the kitchen, and he did it so that the stove has to now be two inches from the wall in order to clear his installation. Afterward I saw that he could have put it closer to the wall, but it wouldn't have been as convenient for him to have done so from below. I don't think he cared at the time, and he never asked me about it. I think that all electricians and plumbers should have structural concepts as part of their training and certifications. As hard as it is to get quality into these trades, given the decreasing numbers entering them, cross training should be at least a considertion.