I have to rough frame a lot of different size elipses in a custom home I am building (windows, door archways, etc.) What is the best way to lay them out for rough framing?
Thanks
I have to rough frame a lot of different size elipses in a custom home I am building (windows, door archways, etc.) What is the best way to lay them out for rough framing?
Thanks
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Replies
I do the bearing header at the highest point of the arch plus two inches. I cut the arch in a pair of plywood pieces, and then use short blockes of two by four running horizontally between the two to create the arch and then place it in the openning and screw it in place.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Thanks Piffin,
I frame arches the same way, but what I need to lay out are elipses. I cannot use a radius point or other standard methods to achieve the ellipse. There must be a way to calculate to "radius" but I don't know how.
Thanks
draw line x-y, place point A at the 1/2 way pt of x-y. from pt. A measure up to pt. C (this is whatever the total rise you want in the ellipise) Along the line x-y place pts.b and d exactly 1/2 the distance of line A-C from the pts. x and y these are the foci . tack a small nail at pts b , d , and A.Take masons line and tie at pt. b wrap up and over A and tie off at d.
Remove the nail from pt A and place a pencil against the string at pt. A
Carefully slide the pencil to pts. x and then y making sure you keep tension against the string you will scribe a perfect ellipse with just a little practice. If you had some piano wire instead of the string it will be a little more precise but the string is fine for most framing applications.
Sure wish a knew how to draw on this gadget!
I hope its clear to you . Have fun.
put your description with this drawing.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
nice drawing, but you went the same distance . the foci should be 1/2 the total rise , other wise your pencil would scribe the ellipse too far out of the opening.
So are you going to keep it to yourself? (How you do that?!)
hey Piffin - what program do you use to make those cool diagrams, and how do you get it on the post?
ps: that's the same method I have always used to make an ellipse.
red,
That particular drawing was done on Turbocad. most others around here, I do on Softplan.
Regardless of the program that generates it, that program would save to it's native format by default which readers here could not read unless they have the same program. Most PC's have viewers for BTMP, JPG, or GIF. I unsually save as JPG for posting here, sometimes GIF, because they are relatively smaller file sizes that take less space on the server or your hard drive and take less time to upload and download.
Irfanview is a good program that is free and lots of folks use it for viewing, manipulating and converting drawing or photo files. I posted a link to it in the Gallery..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Thanks for the scoop, I'll try Irfanview.
Suppose you know the lengths of the long and short axes of the ellipse you want. Draw them, then draw a circle whose center is at one end of the short axis, and whose radius is half of the long axis. This circle will cross the long axis at the foci of the ellipse. Put nails in the foci, rig up the string, and draw the ellipse.
-- J.S.
I've got a couple of links for you that demonstrate the string method.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html
http://www.josephfusco.com/DW3_Sites/Ellipse.htm
I can give you a few tips.
I usually use the bottom of a piece of plywood as the bottom of the arch because it is straight. I just draw a line in the center of the arch.
Our taper always wants me to leave a 1/2" square on the bottoms of the arch so the sheetrock can butt. So if I have a 6' opening, I draw a vertical line at 3'.
I then draw a line in from each end 1/2".
The distance from the 1/2" to the center line (2'11-1/2" in this case) is what I think of as the radius of a circle. From the top of your arch ( whatever number you measure up the center line from the bottom) swing the 2'11-1/2" radius and where ever it crosses the bottom of the plywood on each side of the center mark, put a nail. Those are your focus points. Put a nail at the top. Then stretch picture hanging wire (trust me, it works much better than string) starting from the left (or the right. It doesn't matter) up and around the top and tie it off at the right. Take out the top nail and scrip the arch. The first link above shows why this works. Joe Fusco's drawing shows how to find the foci by swinging the radius.
When you build these arches, put a ton of backing or filler between the plywood cutouts at the bottoms. Our taper cries because the bottoms are steep and his corner bead doesn't lay flat. All he has to do is staple it, but he likes to complain. I have a really old Senco crown stapler and I use it to attach the filler to the plywood cutouts. The filler pieces never move and this avoids the shock of using and airgun.
I'm posting a picture of a simple barrel hallway I framed last week. The arch to the right is an elliptical arch. You can see how I framed it. Trust me on the stapler, it won't split the filler. Hope you have fun.
Here is another pic.
One more thing. If you have a bunch of the same size opening that have to have arches, I cut one and then use a router to cut copies.
Edited 12/12/2002 6:19:29 PM ET by TIMUHLER
we just frame a square hole and leave it. When we hang the job the opening gets overlapped and the elipse is drawn on the board. Cut that out and take your little surform rasp and hit any "wobbles", screw in some blocks, hang underneath, attach plactic cornerbead. Finisher has a little more work than usual at the tight radius.
math world was outstanding but mr. fusco's was not functioning correctly.
Ya, that page has been that way for awhile. Can you see the graphics? That's really all you need. With the math world link it all should make sense.
Nice shooting!
pretty groovy hallway. looks like 2x6s flat for the ceiling? are they secured mid-span somehow? Most doug-fir 2x around here would twist or warp laid flat like that unless they were somehow pinned.
I used 2x4s flat. I thought about doing something midspan, but the total span is 6'. If it was any bigger I probably would have supported them in the middle. Thanks for the compiment.
Try this simple method for lay out of arches I learned from an old timer....
every elipse has two axis ,major..the longest and a minor..the short. both intersect at the centerand are 90degrees to each other..knowing this we start with by snapping a line on the ground that is the length of the major axis....now find the center and square a line thru ....using the dimention of the minor axis , center it on the line....using a string and two nails,,,place the nails an equal distance in from the ends of the MAJOR axis ,,,I usually start with about 1/4 of the minor axis dimention....now tie one end of the string to one of the nails and pull it past the second nail until you touch the out side point of the major axisand fold the string at that point and bring it back to the nail you just went past....tie it off there....place a pencil in the fold of the string and draw the elipse......some times you have to move the nails several times to get all of the points to hit,,,trial and error, just remember to keep the nails at equal distances in off the ends of the MAJOR AXIS.....good luck...Mark Rogers G.C.#643905
i use a trammel
Thanks, I was trying to keep it simple....T/points work as well as a/geo and a good `puter ..good luck...Mark
here is an easy method
http://www2.fwi.com/%7Ekrumy/ellipse/ellipse.htm
you use a framing square and travel points you get 1/2 ellipse
cybersportSS,
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Joe,
It still appears the same to me.
Jon Blakemore
Jon,
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Joe,
Using IE6 with windows ME (don't know if that matters) and the title "build your own..." overlapps the previous section. The top left corner of "build" is at the top of the first "l" in "pull as tight as you can". Hope this helps.Jon Blakemore
PM22,Jon and everyone else,
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Very nice Mr. Fusco!!
wow...
You even managed to get me to stop complaining.
Page looks great.
edited---
Joe, you would have to make a new jig for each new ellipse, correct? Or, you could use two long pieces of c channel and install stops per your dimensions, then use an adjustable trammel. Am I thinking correctly?
Jon Blakemore
Edited 12/21/2002 7:11:31 PM ET by Jon Blakemore
Jon,
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Edited 12/21/2002 8:00:29 PM ET by Joe Fusco
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That's seriously cool...Jon Blakemore
that is cool Joe, that ought to work for anyone that has an eye to see.
works fine for me Joe - nice work as always.
Joe,
I clicked on the page and it mostly worked EXCEPT some parts of it were overprinted or overlapped. I'm using IE 5 if that matters. Never saw this before. Other than that, I respect your flagrant genius.
-Peter
Edited 12/21/2002 3:34:15 PM ET by PM22
PM22,
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Edited 12/21/2002 4:36:46 PM ET by Joe Fusco
worked fine for me joe... (IE ).... but this sure is deja vue...
i wish i had my old .jpg image of that page in Architectural Graphic Standards i always use to lay out eclipses ..........heh, heh, hehMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I believe the explanations you have received are quite clear, in addition I might add: The practical problem of putting the above in practice is finding a string, wire, etc that doesn't stretch. When you locate your foci points tie the string/wire to the left foci nail/pin, place your pencil on the mid-point vertical axis at the desired height of the ellipsis, drape the string over the pencil, pull it tight and secure the string to the right foci point pin. Because of the inherit stretch, trying to precisely measure the string doesn't work very well in the real world.
Also, to speed up the layout in practice, forget the math. Measure the opening, lets say 8'-0", many times we allow a 4" to 6" flat "shoulder" for aesthetics, in from the jamb or stile. Then at the mid-point measure up the desired height of the ellipsis, lets say the total distance from the bottom of the ellipsis to the ceiling or rail is 1'-0" minus the reveal you want, in the case above the taper wanted 2" which subtracted from the total height of 1'-0 equals 10". Subtract 10" from each end of the 8'-0" opening and place your nails or pins, these are your ellipsis foci. Snap a line between the two pins, which are 8'- 0" minus 20" or 76" apart. Locate the center between the pins, on the snapline, in this case 38", measure up 10", place your pencil point on the spot drape and tighten the string as described above, scribe, walaa your ellipsis. If you want 4" shoulders, subtract 14" from each end. Good luck.