Business is good at the moment, and I really need to increase the workforce. I have been therefore giving some thought to the type of person I would like to hire. Some people, it seems to me, deliberately adopt an appearance which puts them at odds with the majority of adult society. Good examples of this would be pieces of metal stuck in various parts of their faces.
I had a young guy talk to me about a job, and although I was trying to listen to what he was saying about how good an employee he would be, all I could see was this stupid ring in one side of his nose.
I don’t think I would employ somebody like this. Partly because I wouldn’t want my customers put off, but mainly because I think their appearance shows an attitude problem which is saying that they are more concerned about what their multi-pierced friends think of them than their potential employers.
John
Replies
Happily hire him with the understanding that the ring is not worn to work. The first time he leaves his nose up on a wall, will be the day you wish you stuck with that rule.
If he won't work that way, part company friends.
I'm sorry, but I need to take the historical perspective.
Back in the days of square-rigged ships, hauling tea from Asia, and whale oil from the far reaches of the Pacific, it was common for skilled sailors from all over to have rings attached to various parts of their heads.
If a carpenter's a skilled one, it matters little to me if he has a ring in his nose, his ear, or one of his other protuberances. One on his finger is another matter, though.
Are you guys that are bitching about this checking all your new employs for wedding rings? Pinkie rings? Any finger? That's a much more dangerous place for a carp to be wearing a ring.
So, do you check for an "Albert"?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
That's a Prince Albert.
All the girlies say that I'm really kind of fly for a white guy.
I know that. BTDT.
Wonder if anyone checks?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
"BTDT"
Way more info then I needed.
All the girlies say that I'm really kind of fly for a white guy.
Gene, You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. It was historical that children worked in factories for 14 hour shifts. Not today. Many other examples abound.I also agree with you on finger rings. Although I am married, I don't wear one on my finger while in the field.So for me it is a combination of safety and appearance. I no more want a nose ring, or other facial piercing, than I want a torn, stained t-shirt or jeans. It is not the image I want to put forward of my company. Now if you start clean and get dirty digging a ditch, that is another matter entirely.
George Carlin summed it up on one of his shows- What do dreadlocks mean?
They mean you will never get a good job in the USA.
I tend to be put off by piercings and distracted as well!, but then I think of when I was younger and wore my hair long, dispite that being unpopular at the time. But when an employer told me he would hire me if I cut my hair, I did cut it.
I'm with Kirk. Safety issue. Tell him he'll have to leave it at home.
I was never dumb enough to wear my earring to an interview. I never wore it to work either. Too much potential for a bad time.
All the girlies say that I'm really kind of fly for a white guy.
In school (70's) if we had long hair you got to wear a hair net to keep it out of rotating items that would not slow down for any part of you. Least of all your hair.
There's a restaurant I know very well that has a policy to ALL employees that in part says only 1 pair of ear rings will be worn at any one time. No other body piercing of any kind shall be visible to the customer Further down the list of no no's is tattoos.
I personally would not hire without that conversation of leave the nose thing at home or in the car.
You want to work and make great pay? These are our rules. Simple enough
I agree with you and all.
Our customers CARE about our persona and appearance. While my job gets me quite dirty at times, I always wipe up the sweat and grime when conversing..and I know that face jewelry just projects the wrong image I'd like to show.
I have ONE tattoo, just a name, not an image of the devil or anything, and I even keep my T shirt ( mostly) covering it. Out of respect for the HO. And what I represent.
Now shaveing...that is a whole new ball of wax...
I'd be up front with the candidate and tell him it is a concern of yours..unlike a tattoo, it is reversable.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
I have a great, hard working, dirty hippie on my crew. His people skills are outstanding, but his appearance is attrocious, and like most dirty hippies, he stinks. We've tried joking about it, we've tried honest discussion, and he just thinks people have hangups about odor in our country. Bottom line is, we're all acting a part, and he's gotta act it too, so I'm working on an appearance code and standard to be fair to everyone and lay it out ahead of time. I worry though, about what this standard will say to new hires. And I'm trying to find the right way to say, "It's not you, it's me." DCG Your Neighbor's Contractor LLC"A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something."--Marcus Aurelius
People DO have hangups about BO in this country. I personally find it mind-boggling that somebody could get upset about someone who does hard, physical labor in the summer having some BO.
okay--we DO have hangups, we also DO have customers who DO have expectations who DO write us large checks for the work we DO. Additionally, we DO write large checks to our employees for the jobs they perform. The largest part of a labor related job is to make life easier for everyone around you, including yourself. Smelling like sh1t does not make it easier for your co-workers to get along with you, for your employer to put you in front of the customer and therfore build your skills set, or for your customer to reccommend your crew based on your hard work and attention to detail. If you neglect your own personal hygeine, what might you neglected inside their home.-dukeDCG Your Neighbor's Contractor LLC"A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something."--Marcus Aurelius
There is nice, clean, honest , fresh sweat, & then there's yesterday's.Likewise with clothes...a world of difference between clean this morning & worn for days.If I have a body odor issue, it's with perfume, cologne, aftershave, etc.
Perfume? Dont' expect to work on my job with perfume on. I get asthma attacks from most perfumes.
I wouldn't put up with a stinky worker either. I'd flat out tell him he has to go home, wash his clothes and take a shower before starting work.
And that would apply for every day for the remainder of his employment.
No tools, no work.
No clean clothes, no work.
No shower, no work.
It's all very simple.
blue
I almost forgot to adress the original topic. Nose piercings.
Personally, I've never worked with too many people that are pierced. I remember a couple of fellows that were unique and they weren't good carpenters. Now I'm jaded and think most that look like them are bad carpenters.
I hire people that I'M comfortable with. If a nose piercing bothered me, I wouldn't hire him. I know my own limits.
blue
jesse... some people START the day with BO.... if the boss won't mention it... who suffers ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If I had an employee that was fine in every respect other than perceived personal hygiene, I would try to keep him. I'd still kid him about it, leave some hippie deodorant in his bags, Dr. Bronner's in his lunch, put rosemary shampoo in his chalk bottle...I understand company policy, but I'm not running a work release stalag. Good workers are hard to find, and ones that can think, unlike sheep, are very valuable to me.I used to be one of those stinkin' hippies, 'til Mrs 'Snort cleaned me up...can you bribe his girl friend?<G>As to the nose ring...any jewelry is a safety issue in my jobs, so it's not an option...but I could care less if someone's wearing it when they're not on the job. I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
I know where your going with "percieved", one man's rose, etc., and I hear ya. I work up a pretty good funk in a day.But this is more like two day old cheeseburger with the works wrapped up and left on the dashboard for two or three days in the sun--its really quite incredible.We plan on keeping him around. I'm just expressing the frustrations a 27 year old business owner has with trying to teach a fifty year old dude what's appropriate and what's not. It always amazes me what you don't think you should have to tell a guy because it'd insult his intelligence....only to find out he'da been safer or faster had a much easier go if you'da opened your mouth.DCG Your Neighbor's Contractor LLC"A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something."--Marcus Aurelius
"I worry though, about what this standard will say to new hires."
If you do it properly, it'll say "I'm a professional."
Do you really want people working with you, and representing you, who don't embrace those basic values? Not I!
Stick to your guns.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Tell him you are willing to respect his dress code outside of the job and expect him to respect your dress code on the job. Your code is no nose rings (or earings) for safety reasons. Does that make studs okay? Your call.
This is also a presentation issue. How your company is represented to the Client is important and sends whatever tones YOU want. If jeans and random t-shirts is fine, that too is part of your dress code. If you prefer companty T's or overalls, that's your call too. You get to decide, NOT your employees.
If he declines the job for not being able to wear his nose ring, he probably would not be a good employee anyway. He's not the team player you are looking for. It's that simple.
Frankie
Exasperate your vegetables until exhausted; disturb your chestnuts in milk until queasy, then disappoint.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
I'm suprised to hear that's an issue in England.
back when we used to get over there a coupla times a year ... seemed like everyone had a tat and a piece of metal sticking outta their face. Seemed to be much more accepted.
Me personally ... I can't stand looking at a nose ring ... but as long as the wearer presents themselves well ... what the hell do I care?
Now ... I have worked with people with BO ... one guy in particular ... Stinky became his instant nickname ... demo in a small bath? ... I'd take the nose ring over BO.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
demo in a small bath--that's exactly it, if we can' solve this thing with some soap and deodorant, he's relegated to outside projectsDCG Your Neighbor's Contractor LLC"A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something."--Marcus Aurelius
Until I read through this thread I thought that I was one of the few who couldn't feel comfortable with these piercings.
That style of dress style is pretty common in youth. No one seems to view it as odd. So my practiced habit has been to try to ignore those rings.
Safety issue, that is another thing entirely.
you are obviously concerned about what your peers think of you as well...the people you are referring too are probably young adults...you are probably an adult. Obviously the desire for respect from your peers and colleagues doesn't diminish over time. This doesn't stop someone from acting responsible and moral. Actions speak louder than noserings.
when I go on trial, I take complete control over a client. I dress them, groom them, tell them how to behave. Sometimes they hate it because "it isn't them." I tell them they make choices; this choice is about accomplishing a goal at the end of the day that is more important than any need or desire to maintain whatever they perceive to be their "style".
The point is that it's all about priorities. To the employer, the priority is whether the guy's skills are so good that he will overlook any idiosyncracies that may cause a problem with the customer, or whether the customer's potential negative impression is more important. If it's a safety issue, that probably trumps everything else.
To the worker, if his need to express his identity by self-mutilation while working is more important than having the job, then he's either immature or a danger to the employer. His skills, however, may trump either.
To the customer, they don't need to be "understanding" of the contractor's personnel problems. But if they really like the work, this will likely trump any negative impression of personal hygiene or self-mutilation.
Personally, I can't stand looking at people who pierce their faces. It grosses me out, and makes me think that they have some personality disorder. But I'm old and may not get it. I wouldn't have anyone working in my house if they smelled, disgusted me, upset my wife. Unless they were really, really good, in which case I'd bite the bullet and tell DW to look the other way until the job was done.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
some of those folks call themselves EMO's....
they're quite the bunch,,,Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
yeah...i hate all that crap too
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
A guy who works at a local taco joint has multiple piercings. He is the most courteous, consciencious, and efficient counter guy in the city.
My only concern would be the safety aspects, and a small nose ring is likely safer than earrings and a number of other possibilities.
I hired a guy seven years ago who had a nose ring, tongue ring and a couple traditional ear rings. He had the skills and expeerience I was seaking. He was well spoken and polite. He worked for me for 5 years before decideding to become a draftsman. He is unquestionably one of the best people who has worked for my firm in 16 years.
All of the piercing came out the year before he went to school. I never had a customer who mentioned his appearance. I would expect that may be because he was capable and friendly.
I can't forget his personal hygiene was better than mine I think:P
Judge the person not the appearance.
Jon
Outward appearances many times have little to do with what is on the inside.
Wife is a public high school teacher for over 15 years. Has seen all types. She looks right through it. Kids that are all gothed out with white faces and black fingernails, looking like a zombie, are sometimes the ones to "pull a kitten out of a tree", so to speak. Sometimes the ones dressed most conservatively are the meanest sheets around. Sometimes, vice versa on both accounts. You can't tell by looking.
As an Engineering manager in a previous life, I had to hire some people. First one I interviewed had a devilish looking goatee, earring, ponytail, etc., looked a little on the wild side. Now Engineering is pretty much a conservative job, and working in an office, with customers visiting, well, there was certainly an expectation of being somewhat conservative.
Long story short, I hire the guy through a temp agency, for a 3 month trial. I needed his skills, and good help was hard to come by. He ended up being the best employee I ever had. I made him permanent after the short trial. I just explained to him what I expected, what the dress code was, etc., and there was no problem. His performance was excellent.
It's up to you to set the requirements of your workers on the job site. You set the dress code, set standards on hygiene, smoking, profanity, chewing, safety, customer interaction, whatever. If he abides and works well, then you have a good employee with a nose ring. I'd just hate to see anyone pass up an opportunity based solely on outward appearance, especially since I read so many posts regarding how hard it is to get good help in the trades. This guy just might be your best employee, making you gobs of money and saving you lots of headaches. But you won't know unless you try. And once you try, you should be able to figure out quickly if it will work out or not.
Personally, I see all those piercings and tats, and I just think "OUCH!" (and "waste of money",) but it's not my body or my money, so I don't worry about it.
The nose ring, to me anyway, might be a safety issue. Dangling jewelry or hair or loose clothing too. Depends on the work being done. But then again, the old-time carps used to keep nails in their mouth, so maybe all these body holes can be put to good use on the job site. If the nose ring is big enough, may put a BiggLugg in there to hold the cordless drill, or keep a spare nail or 2 in the eyebrow or ear piercing holes. :)
Pete Duffy, Handyman
Re the safety issue, check with your insurance co, and check the OSHA regs. Likely OSHA is rather vague about it, but your ins co may have a "loss prevention specialist" or some such who can tell you (based on industry experience) what sort of jewelry is and isn't dangerous on a job site.In all likelihood the nose ring is less dangerous than a wristwatch.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
A few mention a nose ring as a safety issue. Perhaps if its got a chain connecting it to some other piercing, but if its the standard loop, stud, etc. I can't see it being a safety problem. "Nose to the grindstone" is just a euphemism!
If you don't want it you don't want it, but don't run a line about safety.
splat
If you don't want it you don't want it, but don't run a line about safety.I'm curious, do you have any employees under a workman's comp policy? And, if you do, how long have you been doing this business?I've seen pony tails and beards caught in drills, a nipple ring hung up on a top plate, a pinky ring pull off a finger, and an ear ring hung on a wall stud, just to mention few things...sorry, it really is a safety thing<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
No, I'm not in the business.
<!----><!----><!---->
The original poster wrote:<!----><!---->
“:all I could see was this stupid ring in one side of his nose.â€<!----><!---->
“their appearance shows an attitude problem“<!----><!---->
Primarily, I was responding to these sentiments saying if you don’t like the appearance fine, you’re the boss. But don’t get behind the couple posts that threw out safety and say its safety if that’s not the case. Several people besides me questioned the validity of a nose ring being a safety concern.
rings, pony tails, wristwatches clearly a no-no. Nose ring not clear. I tend to doubt it raises the risk level compared with the other risks that people feel safe taking.
<!---->splat<!---->
"No, I'm not in the business...Nose ring not clear. I tend to doubt it raises the risk level compared with the other risks that people feel safe taking."Oh-kaaay...don't take this wrong way, but I tend to feel you're being pretty cavalier with other people's risks, and you could have just stuck with the appearance thing. I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
I cant believe what im reading. i see a lot of popular names on this site replying on this thread and it blows my mind that things like this actually bother people. normally I read your comments and enjoy your input and respect you as equals or better. I have lost some of that respect for you.
I have had similar conversations about this kind of thing before and people usually refer to me as open minded. no im not open minded, your close minded. they are not weird for having it, your weird because you cant get over it.
why is it we cant like different things?
why is it ok to have a ring in your ear but not your lip? its the same thing just a different location. it has no effect on your life so who cares.
granted you have the right to hire whom ever you want for what ever reason but if something so trivial prevents you from hiring some one then i find you pathetic.
self mutilation? so why is a ring in an ear not? how many of you smoke? that's a form of slow suicide. and you REALLY stink. putting a ring in your eyebrow is bad for you but working with dust, chemicals, cutting yourself, getting slivers that get infected etc.... is ok?
what if someone had a large mole on there face but was a talented trim carpenter? what if they were afro american , hispanic, east indian, a woman, or gay? you wouldn't hire them because you think there a bad appearance for your business? i grew up with a girl who had a large inflammation on one eyelid. it was something to get use to but eventually you no longer notice it. she was brilliant, smokin hot , and a blast to hang out with.
would you vote for a useless president because the better choice has a bad complexion? or better yet was a veteran missing a hand. our mayor is in a wheelchair and is doing a kickass job.
do you realize there are many normal looking people with major mental issues or fetishes or perhaps there gay all around you. they have 0 effect on your life.
a tattoo doesn't make a person bad. there are bad people without tattoos too.
what about these twits with blue tooth technology phones stuck to the side of there face. they look like cyborgs from star trek. i dont think it looks good but i can accept it because it has no effect on my life.
I'm also a hot rod fan and I cant figure out why people would waste their time on those 60s and 70s muscle cars. but, I can appreciate there craftsmanship and artistic talent.
so what if they have a dozen extra holes. at least they have an extra place to hang a tape measure or perhaps your client can hang there shower curtain off them to see what it looks like. if a client cant get over how a person looks then i feel sorry for them. because they cant get over apperance and will probably end up choosing the lesser talented choice.
I'm not saying you and I have to like everything we see. what I am saying is just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
GROW UP
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
Perception is reality.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
there's piercingsand then there's piercings . . . . . . .
I wonder if he/she flys very often. That might be interesting watching them go through the metal detector.
Looks like a good canidate for a Client Relations position.........if you want to sit home and watch Opra.
I agree, I think those bluetooth ear buds are completely retarded. I can't imagine having someone working for me while talking away on one of those. They look like a big beetle munching on their ears, always tempted to swat it away. I would definately institute a no-cell phone policy during working hours. BTW Curious what you're definition of a hot rod is if you don't like 60's musclecars. I probably wouldn't hire someone driving a hopped up Camry trying to tell me it's a hotrod though.
Hmm, while I agree with you in principle, I stumble on some of your specifics:
"why is it ok to have a ring in your ear but not your lip? its the same thing just a different location. "
It isn't quite the same for all people. Some people I can't understand what they are saying. It's more of a problem with a tongue bar, but either way - hardware on the mouth sometimes gets in the way of speech.
"self mutilation? so why is a ring in an ear not? "
I don't believe anybody said it wasn't. I was 16 before I mutilated myself with pierced ears, and even then my mother was really unhappy with me - according to her I needed to be 18 to do it without permission.
"a tattoo doesn't make a person bad"
No, it doesn't. But gang and prison tats in visible locations are indications that a person is bad. Hiring a member of a gang is a good way to invite trouble to your job site. There are charities that will remove these for free if said person has decided to be good.
ear ring , nose ring, lip ring spike sticking out of there head or where ever. no matter how you look at it its the same thing. not being able to understand them because of a lip ring or a safety issue is a different thing.
one person did refer to it as self mutilation. my point was most likely their wife/girlfriend probably has ear piercings.
the bad person was bad before the tattoo. it didnt make them bad. if that little girl in you profile (really cute by the way) got a butterfly on her leg, would she be a bad person? no. if they use it to label themselves then fine, thanks for telling me. firemen get tattoos to label them selfs as part of a group too. there not bad.
my father is the typical close minded person. he thinks body art is a bad thing yet his wife has pierced ears, wears make-up and perfume.
maybe if these contractors gave these people a chance to prove their ability then there customers might see that not all strange or different looking people are bad.
i seem to remember a similar problem a few decades ago. i think it was refered to as raceism
my point is i dont think its fair to discriminate because of apperance.
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
Are you really going to compare judging someone by skin color or some appearance they have no choice over to a tatoo or piercing. A tatoo is a choice. Things in life have consequences. Everyone who gets unusual piercings or a tatoo you cant conceal with clothing knows they are doing something against the norm. Those decisions have consequences, mostly bad. You have the right to stick as many pins in your face as you want, I have the right to not hire someone who choses to poke holes in their face.
I'm the one who said it was self mutilation, and that's exactly how I see it.
You want to call it body art? Fine, call it whatever you want. But don't compare it with racism. It's a million miles away.
You can argue all you want about how wonderful it is to pierce whatever it is you want to pierce. And I can get nauseous when I see it. And if it's your company, hire whoever you want regardless of piercing. And if it's my company, I can choose not to hire people with piercings. And if its my house, I'll have in there who I choose to have in there, even if it hurts your sensitive feelings.
Make your choices. Live with the consequences and stop arguing about how others are wrong to dislike your choices. I've already got children, and don't need to argue with another child here. I am not in favor of some law saying you can't put a ring any place you want. But don't demand that I like it. Your body art is my self-mutilation. It doesn't make you a lousy carp, but it does tell me that your need to put societrally abnormal holes through your body is more important to you than the consequences of doing so. End of story.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
"my point is i dont think its fair to discriminate because of apperance."
Sorry, but I think you are dead wrong. I see the context that you are coming from by your post and that you have rationalized it down to that statement, but step back for a minute and think about what you say.
Appearences do matter and play a huge factor in the business world. I don't think that will ever change.
not getting liked because of appearance?had a second level boss who didn't like my ties and made a stink over it.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Life aint fair.
Deal with it.SamT
this posting is making me laugh. you all need to calm down.
just to let you know, im 36, white with no holes or tats. i never said i liked these things. im just able to accept them.
ccal. yes i am comparing it to racism. granted they're different, but basicaly racism was, or is, not accepting someone because they are different. it dosent matter there colour, believes, or apperance. its called accepting them for who they are and there choices. that dosent mean you have to like it.
shg. i can accept the fact that you have a different opinions, i can accept that you refer to it as self mutilation. what i have difficulty with is that your wifes pierced ears is self mutilation too but you dont see it that way. i hope ,for your kids sake, that one day when your kids get older and get earings or tats that you can accept it then. that dosent mean you have to like it.
jer. thanks for your reply. thats just it, i have stepped back and looked at it and realized 1 hole or 5, a hole is a hole is a hole no matter how you look at it. 1 tattoo or 10 it dosen't matter. because at the end of the day i may not like it but i can accept it. why? BECAUSE IT HAS NO EFFECT ON MY LIFE.
and thanks to john for posting this. this is an interesting topic.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
Think back to when you were in high school (especially you 50-somethings), and all the wasted energy that went into the administration worrying about hair length, skirt length, etc.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I guess the point you dont seem to get is that it can affect my life. The people I hire have to go in peoples homes. If they stink, and im not talking about the way a normal sweaty guy smells, people dont want him in their home so that affects my life. If he looks like a pin cushion and makes people uneasy in their home it affects my life. If hes got tattoos that cant be covered or are offensive it can make people uneasy in their homes and that affects my life. If I ran a custom bike shop I wouldnt care how many tattoos you had because people expect that on a biker. People dont want a guy that looks like he just got out of prison working in their home, and if you work for me it affects my life. Working construction is already one of the least restricted jobs out there as far as appearance and dress, why push it to the rediculous.
Everybody agrees that you cannot employ poeple who make your coustomers uneasy in thier own homes, but a good personality can overcome any unconventional apperance. All the guys that work on our crew would make someone feel uneasy on first sight (peircings, tattoos, shaved heads..ect) but five minuets of talking to any of us puts just about anyone at ease. I've always found that if the coustomer trusts you and you show that you trust your employees it really doesn't matter how many tattoos or peircings they have the coustomer will be happy."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
"1 tattoo or 10 it dosen't matter. because at the end of the day i may not like it but i can accept it. why? BECAUSE IT HAS NO EFFECT ON MY LIFE."
That's good. You're a much better person. But it's not about you.
But do explain to me that if you may not like the way a person is wearing their shoes, or is combing their hair, or has a tattoo that you may not like...(I knew a guy with a huge black swastika on his forearm), or is wearing a ton of makeup that you don't find attractive, or has 30 piercings through their left eyebrow that leaves you feeling a bit queezy, or any alterations or disfigurments that a person by choice has done to themselves that you may not particularly like....explain to me how that is tantamount to being a racist.
I have to say that I like and admire tmaxx's attitude.I completely get his point about comparing some of the attitudes expressed in this tread to racism, although in the grand scheme of things hating someone for the color of their skin is a million times worse than not loving the idea of employing someone with a nosering it is still discrimination based on how someone looks or chooses to live thier life.Discrimination based on looks alone shows real ignorance and an unwillingness to learn."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
So let's just say that you need to employ someone in the field of business and presentational speaking within a large conservative financial corporation for the sole purpose of attracting future customers based on their presentation of the company and themselves. There are two applicants for the job, each equally qualified in their verbal communication skills, and both likeable people. Part of their job description is to meet with both public figures and large private investors. One dresses in the tasteful business way with good grooming. The other has shocking blue hair, punk clothes, three nose rings and a tattoo of Che Guevera on his neck. Tell me which one do you think H&R is going to hire and why.
If they chose the first, are they just ignorant and unwilling to learn and totally discriminating against the person with blue hair?
Or are they merely practicing good business sense?
By the way, I have a pierced ear.
turning up to an interview in "punk clothes" would mean that the second guy probably wouldn't get the job, it does show a lack of respect for the corporate environment, IMHO expecting someone to dress a certain way at work or ajob interview is not unreasonable (all our crew wear the company tee shirt).If the second guy turned up in a suit then he probably still wouldn't get the job but I don't think that the company would be displaying good business sense. In my experience people that have and unconventional look fall into two categories: quiet shy wallflower types that are trying to get more people to notice them (doesn't sound like your guy with the blue hair), or extremely confident people that are comfortable in tier own skin and are very good talkers because the've had a lot of experience engaging people over the way they look and he would make an excellent presentational speaker.For me having peircings or tattoos is part of a persons identity much like a Jewish man wearing a kippah a Muslim growing a beard or a Rastafarian having dreadlocks.The problem as I see it is that although piercing has been around for thousands of years it has only been in popular culture for around the last thirty years and it takes a lot longer than that for some areas of society to catch up.Just out of interest what if the second interviewee was a woman with dyed red hair, nose peircings, large tattoo across her lower back or base of the neck and a devil tattoo on her ankle. There are lots of well respected women that have adopted a looks like this, I have met doctors, accountants, head teachers, police officers and lawyers who have made most or all of the above changes to thier bodies (I was describing my lawyer, she is a partner in her firm), but as they are female it seems that it is more acceptable to society.just my opinion"Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
Why do you think its ok to require someone to dress a certain way at work yet think its unreasonable to require they not wear visible piercings or tattoos? Isnt it all part of your appearance? You can judge someone by their clothes yet not by the way they wear jewelery in their face? Seems a double standard too me.
Heh, this is a topic near and dear to my heart, because I wrestle with it all the time.Up until about a year ago, I had a nose ring. I still have other non-visible piercings, and my fiancee and I will be getting tattooed for our wedding on the forearm soon.I always took out the visible things during job interviews and asked about it after the fact. Last place I worked, I was told it was fine and wore it every day.At the time I was a full-blown skater punk.. goatee, nose ring, extremely baggy clothes. I have moderated a bit since then but still dress similarly, though cleaner perhaps and I lost the nose ring last year and haven't yet replaced it.I remember a few times at the last employee greeting a new client at the office, and the look I would get when they asked about radiant and I started talked. Mystification, generally. Lots of stares.You know what though, about five minutes into it, without exception, we were having a good conversation and they relaxed. Why? Because it was apparent that I knew something about what I was talking about, and they didn't. Because I was courteous and helpful and knew what they needed to know. As far as I know, my nose ring never cost my previous employer a single job. But then again, we were dealing with a variety of people who tend to see things more clearly; energy efficient people, DIY'ers who understand that capability not appearance is what matters. If I had to enter the homes of the general public, perhaps it would have been more of an issue.So I lost it a year ago and was deciding whether to replace it or not. I'd still like to. But now that I'm a business owner, I have to play the "what if" game. If it turns off one client, that could cost me and my business a lot more money than I would pay to have my nose pierced.So I'd like it, but ultimately it's a fashion accessorey, and fashion just isn't that important to me.But I'll tell you what; while I may or may not ask a new employee to leave it out when he comes to work, I would never consider turning someone away simply because they have one. I have met far too many self-directed, intelligent people with piercings to think it's an indication of anything other than a fashion decision. Lots of dumb ones too, but I meet those without piercings as well.So whether or not to hire one, it's a non issue unless they won't leave it out when they come to work. For tattoos, depending on your job maybe you would ask them to wear long sleeves or what have you if it's a big deal. But saying "NO" just because they have a piercing or a tattoo, well, you're just missing out on some POSSIBLY very good employees there, which doesn't help you or your business. Good help is hard to find. I wouldn't consider filtering them out over criteria that don't matter if they want the job enough to conform to my business's standards while they are at work.Meanwhile, I'll leave my nose ring out, and maybe wear long sleeves to important business meetings after I get inked and married. But if I run into a client on the street, I am not going to cry if they see a picture on my forearm. And by then, they should know pretty well who I am and what I can do for them, and it shouldn't matter. If it does, then they are probably not a reasonable client, and frankly, I don't have enough time in a day to worry about pleasing unreasonable people, clients or not. If my professional behaviour at work is not enough for someone, well, that's all I am willing to give them. What I do after hours is my business and mine alone.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
What we're discussing here is appearences for buisness purposes and appearences in one's personal life. Most often the two intersect, but many times they just don't. If you agree with that, that's fine...but it ain't the real world. Stacks and stacks of books have been published, seminars given etc etc about the "Dress for Success" thing for good business practices. If you disagree with that...fine, that's your perogative but I think you're wizzin' into the wind with it.
Our friend in the UK makes several interesting points, not unreasonable ones either. It is interesting for instance to ponder the gender discrimination on how women get away with more than men can. I may be mistaken but from what I gather piercings and tattoos are more readily acceptable in businesses over there than here...but not by much anymore.
Again...maybe not to you, but to many, and I think even most, facial piercings at a certain magnitude are offensive. I do not like talking to someone who has tiny metal rods sticking through their eyelids or when they open their mouth to speak there is a metal post that is sticking through their tongue with little metal balls on either end. I don't like that. It makes me wince. I don't like to wince and stare at a 1" diameter hole through the lobe of a kids ear (out of choice), or one of those bull rings through the center of their nose while I'm at the counter buying groceries. It's not horrible horrible, but I don't really like it nor do I think it's attractive to me the public. Do I think they should have a right to wear what they want to. Damned straight I do. Do I have to like everything that everybody wears because otherwise I will be thought of as a terrible discriminator on par with being a racist? Hell no. Do I get to choose where I do my business based on my own personal reasons maybe having something to do with the type of service I get or if I get turned off by who's serving or waiting on me? Yep yep yep!
Am I a terrible person. What do you think?
How did I know you'd come back with the double standard argument<G>I think that you've slightly miss understood my point. You're talking about apperance I'm talking about a persons identity, the things that define that person. Having people that work on our crew wear the company tee shirt show coustomers that this guy works with me and I trust him, it also makes it easy to spot someone who shouldn't be on site. Asking someone to remobve facial peircings whilst at work can be compared to asking someone to shave off their beard <<You can judge someone by their clothes yet not by the way they wear jewelery in their face?>>I cannot dissagree with that more, some of the nastiest creepy disgusting human beings I have ever met wore suits worth more than all my tools put together. The point I've been trying to get across is YOU CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT JUDGE SOMEONE BY THEIR OUTWARD APPERANCE.when more people understand this the world will be a better place."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
What you should or shouldnt do, and what happens in real life are often two different things. It will probably surprise you to know that I have a couple of tattoos myself. They are covered at work unless I have my shirt off, and if thats the case I am working on a site away from my customers. I am not willing to risk substantial business because someone chooses to look or dress in a way that makes or potentially makes my customers uneasy. The only problem I have personally had with employees was one who had some swastica and racist tattoos that he got in prison. He was a decent guy but you just cant let a guy go into someones home with a six inch swastica tatooed on his forearm. He only worked on sites where there were no customers and eventually went back to prison anyway. I really cant see how someones identity can be tied to their jewelery though. It just seems a little too vain to me. If someone wont take it off or cover it up Im not going to use them in a job that deals with the public.
I once worked with this guy who had just come out of 10 years in prison for a bunch of things. This guy stood about 6'4" and while in the pokey he had bulked waaaaay up by lifting weights as I guess there was nothing much else going on. He probably went about 240 with no fat on his frame. Anyhow he had a big swastika on one arm and in huge 4" high black thick tattoo he had 666 across the side of his neck where it was always visible. He was a white supremist and always seemed to be in an ornery mood about to snap. I was the foreman on that job and he was by far one of if not the most intimidating person I ever knew or worked with. There have been other guys I've known to be more lethal but they weren't as demonstrative as this one. There were a couple of incidences that I had to step in on with him and just use my calming wits to quell any storms. I was glad when he finally left. The GC told the sub who hired him that he was in no way ever allowed back on one of their jobs again.
"YOU CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT JUDGE SOMEONE BY THEIR OUTWARD APPERANCE"
A point well taken. It goes in line with the Golden Rule.
"some of the nastiest creepy disgusting human beings I have ever met wore suits worth more than all my tools put together"
Amen, brother!!
"The point I've been trying to get across is YOU CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT JUDGE SOMEONE BY THEIR OUTWARD APPERANCE."Sounds good, but it ain't true.if their outward appearance is a matter of nature - like the colour of their skin, eyes, hair opr position in their wheelchair, that is appearance that they have no control over.But in the subject of discussion here - nose jewelry, tattoos, filthy clothing, etc, those are all indicative of a decision, choice, and action that they have taken. it is a chosen indication and sign to other people in the world around them, that they wanbt to be seen and considered in a certain way. Then they followed through with the action of placing that ornamentation on. That is an indication of how they make decisions and of what sort of judgement they have.The item itself doesn't tell the whole sytorey, but it is one lead amoung many that I want to know more about before I hire him or her.
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<<"The point I've been trying to get across is YOU CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT JUDGE SOMEONE BY THEIR OUTWARD APPERANCE."Sounds good, but it ain't true.>>It's your opinion that it isn't true. I wear a large ring through the top of my left ear, a bolt through my tongue and until a few months ago a stud through my lip. Out of interest what would your opinion of me be?"Then they followed through with the action of placing that ornamentation on. That is an indication of how they make decisions and of what sort of judgement they have."So you're saying I have bad judgement?<G>"Someone - maybe it was you(tmaxxx), mentioned having never lost a job because of piercing or tats.
How do you know?"I said this, I know because I have got every job I've interviewed for, I've been headhunted twice and the only contracts I haven't got when working for myself are the ones I've turned down. I've stated in a previous post that the crew I work with all have tats or peircings and we're booked up for months."The item itself doesn't tell the whole sytorey, but it is one lead amoung many that I want to know more about before I hire him or her."I agree, I'm not saying that everyone with a piercing, tattoo, colored hair or baggie clothes are saints and should be hired on the spot, the problem I have is with the attitude expressed by some posters on this thread that people who dress like this are not worth interviewing and would bring the reputation of the whole company down if hired."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
" Out of interest what would your opinion of me be?"Like I said, it is one of many indicators. The interview would tell me the rest. I have one guy who has spent a year behind bars and has tattoos all over his upper body. but his is clean, polite, works hard, and is dependable. He wears a shirt to cover up on the job so nobody is ever offended.I don't make judgements on one thing only, like you are challenging me to do. Even in the challenge, there can be another type of indicatoor in your body language, or your tone of voice. Did you read the part where I said I'd want to know why those accoutrements are part of your facade? I'd surely think there is something more to you than one descriptor only. You don't write like a shallow person but you ask me to act like one to judge you with such a tiny bit of information.
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<<"The point I've been trying to get across is YOU CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT JUDGE SOMEONE BY THEIR OUTWARD APPERANCE."Sounds good, but it ain't true.>>you have me confused, the statement above imlplies that you do make judgemnts of people by their outward apperances.You then go on to say that you don't judge someone until you've interviewed them.I apologise if I have misunderstood your argument."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
he's saying or implying outward appearance ONLY. I'll take it into consideration along with a a hundred other signals. Beyond that, I explained that this particular appearance thing comes from a dicission made by the person and an action that follows that deccision. - so a judgement made on piercings is a judgement on how a person acts, interacts with others people, and determines values in their life. It is not a stand alone.
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you have me confused, the statement above imlplies that you do make judgemnts of people by their outward apperances.
You're trying to rope him into making a final judgment on only one issue and he's not saying that.
The facts are that outward appearances are a factor to be judged and most people feel more comfortable with other people that are like them. Given enough time, those same most people can adjust their uncomfortableness with others that are different and get along fine. The fact remains: judgments are made on the first impression. Those judgments can be wrong as often as they are a right.
I don't have tatoos, piercings and I"m not considering any. I would consider hiring anyone with them, because I don't feel threatened by them. I don't cater to a clientale that cares either. If I did feel threatened by them, I would form my impression and stick to it because I hire people that suit me. It's one of the few things in my life I can control. If my clientale dictated the types of people that I could employ, I'd have one less thing in my life that I can control and I wouldn't even give them an application. I'd expect the same treatment in return.
blue
Blue hit it. Done.
"The point I've been trying to get across is YOU CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT JUDGE SOMEONE BY THEIR OUTWARD APPERANCE."
I tend to agree with Piffin on this issue: decisions that effect one's appearance are manifestations of their decision making processes, values, and priorities.
On what planet can one have a reasonable expectation that others will not make decisions based upon their decision making abilities, priorities, or values?
Wishing doesn't make it so, no matter how fervent the wish.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I may be completely off base with this but from the tone of your post you think its a bad deision to look a certain way and someone with a facial peicing has values and priorities different from yours.Of course if you belive it to be a bad decision to wear facial jewelry then you could belive someone with a nose ring or lip ring to have bad judgement in other areas of life, that is stereotyping a REALLY bad idea.I have facial peircings, my priorities are my family, my freinds and being good at my job tell me if your priorities are different."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
Edited 7/9/2006 3:54 pm by limeyjoiner
"I may be completely off base with this but from the tone of your post..."
Hello LimeyJoiner,
First: What did you INFER the tone of my post to be?
Second: When did I make a value judgement, and what was it?
Third: Since you seem to be responding almost solely to your own emotional reaction to my post, what part of my statement did you disagree with?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Hi Jazzdogg<<I tend to agree with Piffin on this issue: decisions that effect one's appearance are manifestations of their decision making processes.>> I would agree with this, It shows that they are willing to follow through a decision they have made. But to suggest that you can make a judgement about thier values and priorities because they have a peircing ,I belive, is wrongI've learned from very bitter experience not to judge someone by the way they look, all the people that have ripped me off or had me over in my life could be described as looking respectable, where as some of my best freinds look like they should be in prison, but I would trust them with anything."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
Edited 7/9/2006 5:10 pm by limeyjoiner
"But to suggest that you can make a judgement about thier values and priorities because they have a peircing ,I belive, is wrong"<!----><!----><!---->
Hi LimeyJoiner,<!----><!---->
It appears that trying to discuss these kinds of issues logically - that is, without employing logical fallacies - will be difficult when so many of your arguments appear to be largely unsupported expressions of your beliefs.<!----><!---->
To say "I believe in X because I have learned to believe X is true" isn't a supportable argument in and of itself; it's circular reasoning.
Repeating unsupported arguments doesn't make them true. By the way, I didn't miss the fact that you chose to ignore the three questions posed in my earlier response.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Hi JazzdoggMy apologies for not answering your questions, there was no offence meant. I should have given your original post my full attention before answering it, after re reading it I would have posted a slightly different answer, my bad.It's getting late over here so I'm sorry if I'm sounding a little fuzzy.
Discussing human behaviour based on logical arguments is tricky, logic is not a set rule to human behaviour.You are assuming that someones choices in appearance is a manefestation of their values and priorities, I would dissagree with this, for example wearing a crucifix doesn't neccecerly mean that that person has christian values.
Also the assumption that all facial peircings are based solely on how it looks is flawed.I know that my statemnt is circular reasoning so let me put it a different way, after some bad experiences I no longer mke a judgement about somebody until I have spent some time with them, listened to the way they talk watched their body language ect. Basing any part of your opinion of how someone will act or interact with you or your coustomers on the way they look is flawed. I would like to think that if you met me I could prove it to you."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
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Our next president?!!
Hire me!! Hire me!!
I wouldn't give an app to that person because I wouldn't want to have to look at him every day.
blue
"all the people that have ripped me off or had me over in my life could be described as looking respectable,"This just means you have youth and inexperience with reading people. No foul there, but as you learn to develope that instinct, you begin tolook right inside of them.The outer things are like signs on the highway to get off here for route 59, but you really don't know what condition Rt59 is in untill you travel it - but there are signs, like if every set of tracks turning out onto the highway tells me that it is a muddy road. From that I can deduce that there may be danger points and that I will needt owash the car soon.People wear signs on their face and in their clothes or speech. There are signs in the suit guy that telegraph his honesty or lack of it too. One way to learn to read this and avoid painfull relationships is to observe many different people in many different situations
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<<This just means you have youth and inexperience with reading people. No foul there>>I completely agree, it was a few years back when I was last burned.I know exactly what you mean with your analogie with the roads but I would not say that peircings, tattoos or dyed hair are a very reliable "tell" to a persons true nature.The best way to read someone is to learn body language, body modifications are a concious act I'd rather put my faith in the things that people reveal unconciusly, how they stand, walk, what they do with thier hands or where they look when the talk to you are all better indications to thier nature than if they choose to wear a ring through their nose."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
"you think its a bad deision to look a certain way and someone with a facial peicing has values and priorities different from yours."I'd say that's caled "Prima Facia evidence";)
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I have tatoos and piercings and I am not a bad person so you should not judge people by tats and holes.
I know someone who has tats and holes and they are a good person, so you should not judge people by their appearance.
I got ripped off by someone in a suit, so you should not jude people by their appearance.
Ya walk into a bar. There are two empty stools. One is next to a gorgeous lady in an expensive outfit reading A Brief History of Time. The other is next to a wildly twitching, toothless man in ragged Goodwill hand-me-downs loudly talking to nobody, with red streaks up and down both arms and oozing sores covering every inch of exposed skin.
Who ya gonna sit next to?
Remember, it ain't right to judge by appearance. LOLSamT
I'd stand ;)"Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
The lady at the bar ain't no lady. Trannys turn me way off, so I would ask the rummy if he's like a ride to the hospital since I'm leaving anyway
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The point I've been trying to get across is YOU CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT JUDGE SOMEONE BY THEIR OUTWARD APPERANCE.
Sure I can. I do it all the time.
Why shouldn't I? It works.
Every human does it constantly, even you.SamT
I used to until I had a couple of bad experiences with respectable looking people. I've since learned not to and my life is better for it."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
My point was that content is important. If a guy interviews who has a tattoo, no problem. But if that tattoo is a teardrop, there IS a problem and I won't hire him. He has marked himself as one bad dude and I don't want that around me. So, while it is not fair to discriminate on appearance that one is born with, it IS fair to discriminate on appearance that one has chosen. Body art, piercings, clothing - these are all choices we make and reflect us. If that body art is indicative of criminal activity, then that person has made a choice - and that choice includes not working for me.
Sort of reminds me of Dave Chappelle on the topic of women who dress like ho's. They get all upset when men's eyes drift down to what is displayed. He mentions what if he was walking down the street in a cop uniform? People would expect him to be a cop. When you wear the uniform....
Some time during the couple years my daughter was in school out west, she put a couple of holes in her nose, knowing I didn't care for such.When she moved home, I chose to ignore it for a while. A week later, she had taken the metal out. Asked her why...She pointed out that since coming home, she noticed that of all the other girls around here in her age group, the ones with piercings in other places than their ears were the grunges, the whores, the bums. She decided she didn't want to be associated with that group. but while in school she was in a different social culture and the message she was projecting was different there.I do think this has a lot to do with the cultural sub-groups we choose to associate ourselves with.There was a time when tatoos weree used like a brand - to mark one as a slave.There was a time when sailors wore gold in their ears because ina shipwreck, their valuables would likely stay with them in the chance they made it to shore. My Dad had a tattoo that identified him asa US serviceman and included his SS# so he coule beidentified if his tags weree lost in a casualty.There are good and practical purposes to some piercings and tats.
Other times, like you point out, they are simply signs of rebellion, bad judgement, or criminal mindset.
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"maybe if these contractors gave these people a chance to prove their ability"What you are missing is that these people are notthe ones gembling on that "chance"Why should a contractor "give" a chance to anyone?Someone - maybe it was you, mentioned having never lost a job because of piercings or tats.
How do you know?I can remember three darn good jobs I have had where in the initial interviews, I found that the type of job proposed was really more the kind that one or another of my competitors does regulary. Asking whether they had considered that outfit for the job, I get answers along the line of, "No, I don't think so. his crews look like they just got released from prison or slept under a bridge. I don't want them on my property. I know your jobs are nice and clean and I have seen your crew."My point is that there may wel be some discriminating people out there who have totally passed you by before you knew about it.
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i had this big repy written out and decided not to post it. and heres why.
say and do what ever you want. i have been called worse by better people than you. at the end of the day i know im better than you because i am willing to accept differences in people. i have never met you so i have no reason to dislike you. but i do feel sorry for you. i honestly and truly feel sorry for you. you live life in this closed scared little box and change frightens you. if you got a job over someone else, good for you. how many did you not get called for because they were willing to accept the way the others looked. in this industry if apperance really mattered then this discussion wouldnt be happening because we all would look just the way you want.
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
you should have posted the longer version because that one paragraph made no sense whatsoever. Like, " i have been called worse by better people than you"Worse than what. I never called you anything I responded to your arguments and opinions with my own. You got a problem with diversity of opinions?
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my profile says im 35, look 30, act 12. im assuming you were calling me childish. kind of like some other twit did earlier. i take that as an insult. if you were trying to suggest something else, feel free to explain.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
That's it. Some of your posts come across as a bit imature - or childish as you chose to say
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There's a guy at a local heating supply, who has 2 small ear rings and a mildly punky sort of haircut. He's got several professionally done tatoos on his arms, and one on his neck. He's been there for several years that I know of and seems to really know his stuff. He even opens the shop somedays, like with the key and security code.
One of the guys at the local tool rental is Latino (Puerto Rican I think) and has gang tatoos on his arms, along with some scars I wouldn't ask about. He shows up every day, been there for years, know his stuff, obviously has a past but has since reconciled. He works hard and takes care of his wife and kids, and teached them right from wrong, which he obviously knows a lot about.
About a year ago some tools got ripped off from a jobsite (none of mine fortunately). The perpetrator was your average looking, white, working class, no tatoos or piercings, t-shirt and jeans, work boots, clean cut... I never did like him, didn't trust him from the start. I was just a sub on that job, but I'd have hired the punky looking guy or the ex gang member over the overly clean cut guy any day. Not because he looked decent, that was a good thing in my mind. But because when he talked, just something about him I didn't trust. Allways seemed to be thinking something he wouldn't say. Shifty.
I trust my senses. As for tatoos or piercings, people have them. Take off the ear/nose ring at work so it doesn't get snagged on something. No hip-hop or punk rock on the radio, it's not a party. Be punctual, do good work and be honest and respectful. That's all I ask from anybody. --------------------------------------------------------
For a good time, visit MyToolbox.net See some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
<<"a tattoo doesn't make a person bad">>No, it doesn't. But gang and prison tats in visible locations are indications that a person is bad.>> That seems uncharacteristically judgemental. Almost everything else I've ever read by you seemed pretty open-minded.It might just as well be an indication that this person has had some unusual experiences that were instructive and never to be repeated.If I had applied your criteria I would have missed out on the best employee I have ever had. This guy is remarkably intelligent, highly motivated, and tough enough for any two seriously tough people. He brings an amazing complement of skills and abilities to work every day, and learns something new every day. He is gentle, kind, polite, considerate, attentive, diligent, professional, and does not stop working until I tell him to.Good thing I didn't pass judgement on the prison tattoos. He probably doesn't want them removed. It's part of who he is. Besides, he would not have enough skin left to come to work. <G><<Hiring a member of a gang is a good way to invite trouble to your job site.>>While gang members do tend to have their share of difficulties, that's also not necessarily the case. Everyone is an individual. <<There are charities that will remove these for free if said person has decided to be good. >>You have got to be kidding. They are only good if they remove the tattoo? Or does it work the other way around?There are folks in the world who specifically avoid being tattooed because it is a visible form of positive identification. I was one of them. So am I good or bad?
The bad/good thing was a feeble attempt at humor based on the text of the post I was responding to.
That said, I would tend to avoid gang or prison tattoos. If a gang member, it would have to have been in another locale entirely. Once a member of a gang, one is generally a member for the rest of one's short life. It requires a move away to make a break.
I understand that I could miss out on some of the most wonderful employees in the world, the nicest people, best workers, blah, blah, blah, using this policy. However, I don't want to invite trouble either, and the majority of people wearing these tats have not changed their life and turned over a new leaf, so I play the odds. That tattoo was a choice they made to mark themselves as a gang member or a criminal. If they didn't want to be seen as a criminal, then they shouldn't have gotten the tat.
But I would have to interview the person in order to see the tats, so I would ask. If I got a good vibe and a good explanation, then that would certainly factor into the hiring process. I would ask, because a person does deserve the chance to make their case. So far, this hasn't happened to me because most of my hiring has been done in a corporate setting. I've seen more piercings than visible tats.
There's the reasonable Aimless whose opinions I've come to respect. <G>Thanks.
"am 35,look 30, act 12"Your profile and your post both say the same thing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sounds like your judging the book by it's cover.
As a proud wearer of facial piercings I've met several people who share your attitude all in the 50 to 60 age range.;-)
Having piercings has never lost me customers, in general the punter will look at your work, your price and how you run your business. they really don't care if one of your employees has a nose stud as long as he turns up on time and gets on with the job.
<Some people, it seems to me, deliberately adopt an appearance which puts them at odds with the majority of adult society.>
Yes they do, it's called diversity, how boring would life be if we all had a regulation short back and sides, wore a brown V neck and beige slacks
<I think their appearance shows an attitude problem which is saying that they are more concerned about what their multi-pierced friends think of them than their potential employers.>
well duh, it's not an attitude "problem". I've never met anyone in the building trade who has decided against a body piercing, tattoo, growing a beard or having their hair styled because their potential employer might not like it.
Basing your opinion of someone on how they look makes for a life of missed opportunities. The team I work with are all quick, clean and courteous, we turn out an excellent product at a reasonable price, we have no need to advertise (no builders board on site, the vans arn't signed up and no advert in yellow pages) and we're booked up until the middle of next year, but from what you've said in your post you wouldn't employ any of us.
Give the lad a months trial, hopefully you'll be pleasently surprised.
someone else that agrees with live and let live
very few of these peeps on this site
if all else fails they drag out the safety card
makes me wonder how many people really work for a living here
,everyone here always does the absolute best work there is to be done, employees always wear uniform
about the only people i feel are real and living in a real world is mike smith
andy builds
brownbagg is for real but uhh dont think we would get along,same as jeff buck kinda too much the same type people to get along but i believe hes real
theres more but i guess i will just let it go at that
sorry for the ones i left out ,think yall know who you are piffin need not apply
Due to recent budget cuts the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.
Maybe it's just me, but no nose rings, no body piercings, no raggdy #### shorts, no big jonhson t's, anything that I find cutting edge ain't happening when I'am paying the frieght. After work when your not on my time I could care less.
I try hard to project a professional image, nose rings just don't give me that feeling. Alot of my customers are old money, although they might not object, they are my bread and butter and I don't need to find out that I'am losing work because of the image my employees are projecting.
Call me old school frankly I don't care, as I'am paying the cost to be the boss.
a little off topic,but i won't rent a house to someone pierced or tatooed.why? because when you dress like that and go apply for a decent job [such as the job you were interviewing for] people don't like it. so they end up with a crppy job that pays 6.00 a hour and then paying me the rent is a problem.i know this from experence and have tried to learn...... larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
setting yerself up for a pretty good lawsuit there.
they won't need a job to pay the rent!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
>> setting yerself up for a pretty good lawsuit there.Why? Body modifications do not make a protected class (race, creed, color, national origin, etc).
really? i never thought about it. are you saying thats discrimanation? i thought basicly you couldn't discrimanate on sex, race,i never saw where i couldn't be prejudice toward a persons apperance.i always pay attention to the way a prospective tennant presents himself.if he or his car haven't had a bath in a month,i figure thats how my house will look.i also have to sum up what i think his ability to pay rent in the future will be, i don't care if he's standing there with a months rent and deposit in his hand,if there is no job or a low paying job that just won't cover the rent and living expense's,i don't want him.tell me what your thinking on this is,maybe i just got my head in the sand for the last 31 years of landlording and been lucky. thanks larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
As a landlord myself I think it would be tough for anyone to win a lawsuit based on what you described, however housing discrimination is taken very seriously so it is probably best to be very carefull about how you qualify renters. They could probably claim some kind of religion is tied to their body art and find some lawyer to try it out. A credit check usually tells me what I need to know.
Some very interesting replies to this thread.
I think that the appearance that people choose to adopt is basically a bonding exercise. Everybody wants to be part of a goup, whether that group is one of white-collared conservative businessmen, long haired hippies or baggy-trousered skateboarders. No one would even think of having a piece of metal inserted into their face unless they wanted to be part of the group of humanity that goes in for that kind of thing.
People who adopt any kind of appearance, be it conservative, Hell's Angel or whatever, although they will tell you that it is all about their own personal choice, are in fact applying to join the club which is identified by that appearance code.
Often those who adopt appearances which are further from the norm will tell you that it is all about personal choice and individualism, when really it is all about joining a club, and individualism doesn't have much to do with it
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
You're right on target John. By making these choices, a person is telling the world which group he wants to associate himself with. And that choices carries all the other baggage that goes along with it.
For those who know me here, and know what I do, they know that I am often in the company of some very tough people, so I've gotten to know these guys despite the fact of how they look and what they've done. And I've come to like and respect some, while others are the scum of the earth. I absolutely agree that the appearance doesn't tell the whole story.
But this isn't about whether it's right or wrong to judge people on their appearance. We ALL judge people on their appearance, and we do it ALL the time. It's the first impression we get, and we couldn't possibly spend the time to get to know every person we come across every day, so we have to make calls about people this way. It's not just human nature, but human necessity.
This is about how someone's appearance impacts on customer's first impression, crew's first impressions, prime's and sub's first impression, because this is about how it impacts on business. Anybody here want to argue that customer's should not be allowed to jump to conclusions about people?
What do you want to do, tie down the HO during the first meeting and force them to have a nice conversation with the nose ring guy until they grow to like him?
Tatoos aren't my thing, but they don't skeeve me out like piercings. Provocative tatoos like swatstikas are another matter, because hate messages are inherently bad, but it's not quite the same as 10 rings through an eye brow. And before anyone argues that this is inconsistent, you're right but that doesn't change how I feel about it.
So when you make a choice about being a punk rocker, preppie or rapper, don't kid yourself into thinking that it's the other guy who owes you the opportunity to prove that you're really a good guy. People make judgments about you based on appearance and always will. That's life. And if appearances don't matter at all, why are you bothering putting that crap through your nose in the first place? It costs money, gets infected and hurts. If you're going through that, there's a reason. So quit your whining and live with the consequences.
SHG
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
In the 60's a lot of folks decided personal hygiene was bourgeois and people who practiced it were uptight, etc. Then they found out the hard way--getting lice and so on was not so much fun and maybe it was okay to bathe occasionally.
75720.57 in reply to 75720.26
In the 60's a lot of folks decided personal hygiene was bourgeois and people who practiced it were uptight, etc. Then they found out the hard way--getting lice and so on was not so much fun and maybe it was okay to bathe occasionally.
Danno, how old are you? Did you know these folks? How many?
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I'm a couple years younger than you. I didn't hang out with the Haight-Ashberry crowd, so I didn't know a lot of hippies, but I knew some who thought bathing was overrated.
Well danno, as long as you realize that what you saw maybe wasn't the norm. Streetpeople don't have the luxury of facilities. Not all hippies were living on the streets.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I read something somewhat recently that doctors then (60's) were having to treat diseases that they had thought were long gone since the advent of bathing.
Maybe you need a company policy, passed out at hiring, regarding appearance, smoking, language, interaction with clients, etc. in writing. The next time a situation occurs where an employee may risk damaging company image the employee has a written and established policy. It becomes less personal, and confronting employees in post hiring violation is also made easier. Comply or fly.
I wouldn't wear a ring on my finger while working with homebuilding tools for safety reasons, so why even think about a nose ring? Keep choices out of the discussion, it is a safety issue.
Not true at all. Wear a clasp ring and it can pop right out without tearing the skin.I've had that happen at enough concerts to know it well :D-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
role reversal
your son/daughter wants to follow in yor foot steps and ba a carp. after years of framing he/she decides they want to move into interior trim carp but they need good training with a good company. their potential new boss offers them a good position with their company. do you congratulate him/her because they took the job or congratulate them because they turned it down because there employer had a nose ring?
next question who would you rather hire out of these 2 pics?
both are succesful bussines men both have spent time in jail. 1 died just befoe he was about to spend the rest of his life in jail.
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
Both of those guys have CHOSEN to appear a certain way because they think it says something about them.
In this hypothetical scenario am I hiring them to present a sales pitch to the board of directors or to fix my car?
In this hypothetical scenario am I hiring them to present a sales pitch to the board of directors or to fix my car?
Knowing what we know about both of them would it really matter which job we were doing?
Doug
I'd hire Jesse just to buddy up to his wife, or exwife even.
Lays old lady is a hag iirc.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
"...who would you rather hire out of these 2 pics?"
I think that the most conspicuous self-imposed physical characteristics are more likely to act as predictors of behavior, whether it's gang tats, skateboard apparel, multiple piercings, a flat-top haircut and clenched jaws, or an Izod polo shirt and penny loafers. They are most certainly not a guarantee of one's behavior or character; they're more like a "tell" in poker.
I've seldom had a man with a manicure offer to help with anything involving physical labor or perspiration, and there are likely to be exceptions, but I don't feel I should be faulted for drawing such an inference, or to suggest that such a man may not be the best bet as a new hire on on a framing crew.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
don't let yourself be goaded into trying to fit logic into a silly example. We all make judgments based upon physical appearance, especially personal choices because they are intended to send messages about the person. NOBODY pierces their face by accident. And I am willing to bet that nobody does it against their will because somebody is holding a gun to their head. While there may be the ocassional drunken mistake, you can always take the ring out the next morning and let the hole heal.
So having made this choice, and announced to the world that this is who you want to be, why all the whining about the consequences? You made the choice to tell the world who you want to be, so live with it. The ocassional tatoo, except for swatztikas for example, isn't that far out of the norm to put most people off. Personally, I don't understand facial piercings (because I am definitely not hip enough) to appreciate why anyone would want to do it or what it's supposed to mean, but they just gross me out and I don't like to be around people who gross me out.
But it's silly to compare Jesse James with Ken Lay, aside from the fact that the latter is dead, making him a poor choice for anything. You don't use exceptions to prove a point, you use the typical example.
So can someone explain to me what it means to put a ring through your nose or eyebrow? Why in the world would you want to do that? And as long as I'm asking, why would anybody give their child a bizarre name? Do they ever stop to think how it would sound then they are "Grandma"? And that cute tatoo on her back when she's 25 is going to look like Darth Vader when she's 52 and all saggy. What is she thinking?
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
SHG
I notice you seam to have a bit of a hang-up regarding piercings and tats, whats up with that?
I dont view them as anything different then you wearing a three piece suit into a courtroom, just part of their/your attire really. And yea, I know that you can change out of that suit so maybe not completly the same but ....... you still seam to have a hang up regarding the two "decorations"
Doug
You're right, I do. Much less so with tatoos, but still I would never get one and I wouldn't allow my kids to get one. I have this thing about doing anything permanent to your body. Clothes aren't a good comparison, because they aren't permanent. So can you explain to me (because I really don't get it) why a piercing or tatoo is a good idea?
From where I stand, the only explanation I see is that they look "cool" for the moment and let you feel like you're "special" by being a part of a group that does the same thing. And then a few years later, when you grow up some, it's one of those things that you wish somebody smacked you in the head when you came up with the idea.
Think Grandma Tiffany still looks "hot" with that belly ring at 78?
SHG
And then a few years later, when you grow up.......
No point in discussing this with you because you assume facts that arnt necessarily true. I'd think in your profession that that could be problematic but........
I'm sure to some extent that its human nature to see someone that we precieve as differnt then us and make assumptions but I know from my experience if I had done that throughout my life I would have cheated myself out of meeting some of the more interesting people that I know.
Doug
so nobody's going to take a shot at actually explaining why? Lots of talk but no reasons.
My question was sincere. I don't get it. As for the growing up line, I'm a bit older than a lot of you lads and know quite a few people who had gotten tatoos when they were younger. Every one I know regrets it. Maybe younger generations won't. Or, maybe they haven't gotten old enough yet.
But still, the question is why. Take a chance and actually give me a reason. I would really appreciate being able to understand. It doesn't mean I'll agree, but at least I can have a better understanding.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
SHG
I dont have any tats or piercings, cant ever remember wanting any, especially the piercings, looks like a potential for pain and I can do that shid just fine without any additonal snags!
I may not "get it" because I've never had any desire to do either to my body. Doesnt make it wrong for someone to do it though. As far as I know its not illegal. :)
I guess I've never gave much thought to why someone does it. Why do you do the things you do? or why does Piffin do the things he does? It's not for me to understand, it doesnt bother me so I dont waste a lot of time trying to figure it out. That may not be the answer that your looking for but honestly I dont know that I could offer anything else.
I've got three boys from my first wife, all three of them have tats, got them after they were grown, never gave any of it a second thought and I dont know that any one of them feels that they are being singled out(I hesitate to use discriminated against because I dont feel that I have the right to tell someone that they have to hire a person with a tat or pierceing) because of the tatoo.
Dont know if they will regret it either, there still young enough that thats probably not on the short list of concerns. By the time they get old enough to regret it I'm sure that medical science will have something that you pass your body under and all tats are gone!
I've seen a lot of people in my life with tatoos, maybe as many as you, I'd have to see the stats on NY V's Iowa/OK/TX to know for sure but I'd guess the numbers would prove similar. Of all those people I dont know a single one that has complained that they wish they'd never had the tat or pierce.
Now maybe I wasnt paying attention if they did bitch but if I heard anyone say anything I'm sure I'd have told them that they made the decision so live with it, or do something about it, either way dont bother me with it.
I guess my whole point in this is that there are bigger battles to fight and I chose to not fight this one, seams pointless to me. I'd like to believe that a nose piercing wouldnt turn me off from giving a person a looksee.
I read this whole thread and didnt feel compelled to respond until I saw you make a second reference to the piercings, I sensed that it gets under your skin to see them, thats cool, your right, but its theres to do it and really, is it that big a deal?
For someone that seams fairly openminded(you, not me) I just found it interesting that something that I'd consider trivial would be such an issue with others.
No real revelations on the subject, not on my part anyhow. Just seams with all the other things out there to worry about this doesnt rank up there in my book, but hell who am I.
BTW, I find certain tats on women very sexy, but that could be the perv in me, who knows?
Doug
well said Doug. well said.
yesterday I met with 3 realtor friends I don't get to see often. one showed me his new/first tattoo he got on Friday. I asked what his wife was going to think. he said who cares she is no longer in the picture. I made comment of this thread and they all kind of chuckled. one has both arms fully tatted down to the elbows with a greaser style haircut and the other who just got the tat only has 1 hand. since they're all successful realtors, I'm guessing people don't judge them on appearance.
has any of you that don't approve of these choices bothered to ask these people why they did what they did? they usually have interesting stories. tats often signify a point in there life or to remember someone. I find asking them "why?" opens the door, shows them you don't hate them for it. then once you get to know them you can razz on them for doing something silly.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
tmaxxx
tats often signify a point in there life or to remember someone.
And whats wrong with that!
One of my sons got married last week, he recently got a tat on his arm with his wifes name on it. Its in some weird(to me) language so who knows if they even spelled it right, but considering how marriages last maybe a foreign language is the way to go!
Doug
I think somewhere you misunderstood me. there is nothing wrong with that. I'm all for people doing this stuff. Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
I didn't misunderstand you(at least I think not), I was reiterating what you said. Reemphasizing is all.
Doug
I don't know too many people with tatoos. I'm sure you know more than me, so no need to research it. Just the ones I know tell me they are sorry they did it.
A few I know have prison tatoos. They did it because they felt pressured to join up with a group for self-preservation. Once they're out, they hate it. One guy (a younger one) got some Chinese tatoo. Thought it was really cool at the time. Then he got himself a good job and is now deeply embarrassed by it. He keeps it covered at all times. I asked a young woman about one of these butterly tatoos on her ankle. She told me she thought it was sexy. I asked her how sexy it would be 20 years later, and she admitted that it was a foolish whim and she realized as soon as she showed her parents that it was a childish thing to do.
Now I'm not saying that this is a good statistical sample, and that I have any clue what people think of their tatoos in general. But that's why I'm asking the question.
So where are the guys out there with the tatoos and the piercings who can explain why they did it?
It's axiomatic that we should get to know people before judging them on their volitional outward appearance, but since we can't spend an hour talking to every person we come across every day of our lives, it's a bit impractical. Aside from the fact that piercings gross me out, I want to understand. So one of you piercing afficionados, please tell me why?
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
SHG
Just the ones I know tell me they are sorry they did it.
I'm sure your right in regard to the number of people that wish they hadn't gotten a tat. Same can be said for the number of people that did a lot of things. At least that paddalock hanging from someone's ear can be taken out and maybe the ear will recover esthetically, not sure.
I regret a few things that I've done, I'm sure you do to, everybody does at some point.
Don't get me wrong, when I see someone with multi-piercing about the face and body I take a second look but my thoughts are a bit more pragmatic in that I wonder about all the inconveniences that they cause. And sure the thought goes through my head as to there motives but...........
I'm sure that you don't condemn a complete stranger when you see a chunk of metal protruding from some body part, or for that matter a prison tatoo, I just view it as that's someone making a statement that although I don't understand it, he/she is really no different then me, with the exception that the're more willing to take a risk or are a bit more extroverted than I!
Doug
I'll give it a shot.I started piercing when I was 18. I thought it looked cool. That's it. I enjoyed the way it looked. If you know anyone with pierced ears, go ahead and ask them why they did it. It's no different, just a different location and a different fashion sense. Personally I like nose rings more than earrings. No big mystery there. You make the fashion decisions you are attracted to. It's not some secret code or secrete handshake. It's a fashion decision. Period. Furthermore, a person's choice in fashion doesn't really dictate much else about their personality.As for tattos, I'm just about to get my first one (I'm 31 now), my fiancee and I will be tattooing as a part of our wedding ritual. A nice forearm piece to represent our lifelong commitment. She currently has a beautiful goddess figure holding an earth on her upper left arm and some less attractive ones elsewhere ("folly of youth" tattoos) but that one on her arm is gorgeous and really fits her personality.Frankly, by the time these things turn to blobs, who cares? I'm not going to be out in the bars trying to pick up ladies when I'm 60. At least, I sure hope i"m not. Who cares if it's wrinkled skin or a wrinkled blot? It's still wrinkly. with care and touch ups, it should look great for a long time to come, and when it doesn't look good anymore, I'll just black it out.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Thanks Rob for the explanation. It's kinda what I thought, but you can't assume stuff when you suffer from CRS.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
I have to bite.. CRS?-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Can't Remember Sh!t
Scott,
So where are the guys out there with the tatoos and the piercings who can explain why they did it?
I got my first tat because my tatooist wouldn't do the large one I wanted until I had worn a small "sample" for 6 months first.My large tat is my daughters name and BD. The small one is of a character created by an artist whose work I admire.
I still want one with my sons' stuff. Both existing are high on my arms so they are normally covered. My sons' will be on my chest for covering.
I got my ear pierced so that when I'm "Putting on the nine's" people will see that I'm wierd. Seriously.
But, when I'm doin' the Biz, I want to look like I could be in the clients club.
ps: fer all y'all hippies 'n' outlaws, it's Beatrice Bump, Cheech Lizards girlfriend, by Vaugn Bode'. "So's I could fill yo little head with wisdom."SamT
You're really pushing this idea of yours that employers shoud change their human instincts, or at the very least, they should ignore the effects of those same instincts in their clients.
Since the birth of Man, people have survived by not trusting the unknown.
Just because we outgrew clans, doesn't mean that we changed our survival instincts.
If someone wears a suit and tie, they're a respectable businessman.Wearing overalls and driving a PU, they're a farmer, steward of the earth, very moral.If someone has long hair, tats, and metal, they have no respect for custom, ie: an outlaw, untrustworthy.Very short skirt, filmy halter top with no bra, lots of makeup; they're a hooker, again an outlaw.
Or; They're Ken Lay, a meth cooker, Jesse Ventura, and Madonna.
Now, before you get personal with me, you should know that I have tats and piercings, and long hair and a beard. I have dined with Kings and paupers, partied with Klansmen and tribes, lived with bikers and bankers.
Expecting people to change their survival instinct is a fantasy. The world is what it is.SamT
Sam
WTF?
You're really pushing this idea of yours that employers.....
Where'd you see that?
Now, before you get personal with me,........
And where's that comming from?
I dont get a damn thing that you posted to me. I made one comment on this thread to SHG regarding his distaine for piercings and tats and you respond with ?????
Maybe I'm just to stupid to get it, sorry!
Doug
Edited 7/9/2006 9:25 pm by SamT
Thats about what I thought I'd get, actually a bit more!
You know how it goes, ya jump into a conversation, ya think the guy who just spoke is the same guy that said all those other things. . . .
there are bigger battles to fight and I chose to not fight this one, seams pointless to me
SamT
Thanks Sam
Thats all I wanted to know, couldnt figure out what I said that provoked the response that I read.
Doug
"couldnt figure out what I said that provoked the response that I read."
well ... it all started when U showed up wearing that silly nose ring ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Its like my tie though, clip on!
Don't let Jeff give you the business. Here's a pic of him at home:
View Image
either his head is too small ...
or ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
well, next time you meet a beautiful genie, don't ask for a little head.
yer right ...
I fall for that each and every time.
but it always seems like such a good idea?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'd be afraid of that ball swinging into one of my teeth and knocking it out!
Doug
Or a really strong magnet.Or lightning storms.
That guy wouldn't get an app from me either. His sense of proportion is off. I'm sure his carpentry/artistry would be similar.
blue
He looks more like a lawyer anyhow!
Sorry Shg
Doug
See, I'm with you, but on the other side of the spectrum. I won't hire anyone who shows up to a jobsite meeting wearing khaki's and a polo shirt. My experience with them is that they are just a bunch of sales people and not craftsmen.
* Note to self*
Do not wear a turban to work...
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
unless you're ready to unwind<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Think I seen Bugs Bunny do that with his ears.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
riiight, I shoulda took the right turn to Albuquerque<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Too many posts to read through, so pardon me if I repeat someone. But what that one poster said.... Ditto!
Naw, just kidding. Actually, it's real popular for younger folk to have a pierced nostril. If it's just a small ring they're wearing I wouldn't have an issue with it, as long as they dress like a professional, or at least dress like the other workers.
However, if the applicant shows up to the interview with a pink mohoawk haircut and studded leather pants, or just a rather large nose ring, or a big heavy chain necklace or dressed like Rinestone Cowboy, or unshaven, or anything implying they have no sence of what's appropriate for an iterview, I wouldn't even let the fill the application.
I don't hire but if I did, a small nosering or earring wouldn't put me off. I would have them remove it while working, but only for safety reasons. I think my customers probably agree.
ROAR!
Amen.
I've seen the scenario you describe, but only from a distance. I personally wouldn't want to put cartoons on my body, though admittedly once considered it.
John,
What part of the country are you in? The reason I ask is that, around here (Pac NW), I can't imagine there being very many potential clients who would be put off by a hard-working, polite, clean worker would happens to have a small nose ring (heck, I think that describes the average Starbucks worker, and those joints seem to do a bang-up business).
For myself and many other people I've known who've had constrction work done, they've been alot more offended by having some workers and practices in their homes, that the average GC around here paradoxially seems to think is perfectly OK, and should be tolerated by the client. Like smoking on a client's property, or workers (and everything they own) reeking to high heaven like an ashtray, even when they're not smoking.
Give me the nose ring guy anytime.
Maybe you could make a case on the safety issue, but you have to apply the same standard to wearing finger rings, too (which really are a hazard on the jobsite).
I used to be a dirty hippy, so I resent (or resemble) that characterization. I used to wear my hair long like Tarzan, walk like Jane, and I smelled like Cheeta. (Joke courtesy of Ronald Regan).
I think this is a matter of your personal opinion. No opinion matters others than yours. If the guy has a lot of public contact, I'd make him lose the nose ring.
Regards,
Scooter
"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934