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we have a job that will take us out of the area for a few days , up to a week. And I see more of this in the future, but not a whole lot.
If I have to take employees out of the area This is what my old employer would do so I thought this is a good thing, pay travel time one way, I would supply the transportation, hotel room and 2 meals a day and a 30 minute phone card. They would have to share a room with one other , unless they want to pay the difference, and the meals were on me if they went with me, with a limit on what they had.
I want to offer the employees something fair. I asked two of them the other day and one wanted pay for every minute he is gone from home and the other said no cap on meals and drinks and travel paid both ways. It is a 4 hour drive.We will be gone 4 days maybe 5
Opinions and ideas please.I need to come up with something so I can give the client a price, and I need to set a new policy for the future
Replies
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I spent a LOT of time on airplanes during my career, and the rules changed constantly during that whole time, there were some things that always stayed the same:
1) all reimbursement should be based on actual and reasonable expenses (the alternative is a per diem)
2) check with your tax acountant for meal payments
3) it is reasonable for someone driving to a distant job; particularly if it's your vehicle, carrying your stuff, and/or carrying equipment to be paid for driving.
4) paying others for travel can vary from "none" (that's what managers/professionals usually get) to full OT premiums (some union guys demand this). "Single-time", or a flat-fee is common for trades.
5) don't pay for alcohol - exception: pitcher of beers/litres of wine at communial meals; or, 1st drink after work.
6) phone card is the way to go - enforce a "no calls charged to the room" rule.
7) No receipt - no reimbursement; full stop.
8) only pay for hours worked, they would travel to work at home, so don't pay they for this out of town.
9) IT HAS TO BE FAIR, SO BE PREPARED TO CHANGE THE RULES.
*Your guys don't normally get paid to commute, do they? I'd say pay both ways beyond what an average commute is. Or as soon as they leave your shop.A cap on meals is reasonable (and perhaps necessary if you have someone who doesn't think it is). An offical source of per-diem (lodging and meals) and mileage charges is the IRS's tables for various cities. It can get somewhat high for big cities (SF, NY) but that's fair enough. Most of the country has a constant rate.Getting the $0.33/mile is a pretty good deal. That's $20/hour for driving down the highway, listening to tunes. And it is tax-free (reimbursement for an expense). When I started in engineering, my car made more per hour than I did.I'd try to be generous in areas where you can. Maybe have a cumulative-for-the-week meal allowance. If someone wants the surf-n-turf at the end of the week, that's covered if they didn't max out every other day. A dilbert comic strip on this topic: http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20010622.htmlIt's worth calling around to motels if you're booking several rooms at a time. See who'll bargain a bit. Having my own room is a plus for me (I don't share my room with a sweaty carpenter when I'm at home). But I turn off the Sci-fi channel and get to sleep earlier in a shared room. I most often see shared rooms for trades and single rooms for professionals.As Phil points out, you need the receipts for your records. My perspective, while on the road, is that my meal receipt is like a $20 bill and goes into my wallet to be just as safe as currency. No tickee, no landree. -David
*I'd see if you could two tier the wages. One amount (higher) for their skills another for their travel time, just sitting in a plane. Check with your accountant on the legalities.I was salary so I didn't get overtime, but comp time. One day off for every two worked.Martin
*David"Getting the $0.33/mile is a pretty good deal. That's $20/hour for driving down the highway, listening to tunes. And it is tax-free (reimbursement for an expense). When I started in engineering, my car made more per hour than I did."You not 'makeing' anything with the auto reimbursement. That has to pay for gas, oil, tires, insurance, depreciation, maintance, etc.Hertz or AAA or someone does calculation on the true cost of operating a car and I think that the last number I heard was 50-60 cents a mile. So you are "making" any money and possibly losing money.BTW, any tolls and parking fees are paid on top of the milage.You are right about the motel rooms. All rooms are negotiable (execpt during special events, Derby, Indy 500, etc). Even one room for one night.
*Hey Josh, I worked for a company several years ago that offered about the same deal as yours, the only difference being on food . They paid a flat amount up front for the week. That left the budget up to the workers, some saved a little, some blew it. What they do after hours is their time, so let them pay for it.
*Pay em for travel both ways, pay for breakfast lunch dinner, 5-5-20. They're away from home making you money. Give em a little slack. Overtime after 40 hrs. Tell em we work longer we get out sooner. Fire the guy that wants pay 24 hrs/day, he's a dip shit. Don't forget to check on poss. union relationship b/4 you bid.
*Bill: Regarding car reimbursement: Yes, I agree there are some expenses, but the expenses don't come to much if you have a reliable, fuel-efficient vehicle. My 1988 Chevy Nova has gone 277,000 miles and cost $7,200 brand new. Two $100 parts have been needed and I've had three $500 servicings done (mostly for the timing belt). It gets 35 mpg now (used to get 41-43) and burns a quart every 3,000. I get 45,000-55,000 miles per set of Michelin X-series tires ($39-42/each). So it costs me less than $0.03/mile in purchase price and repairs and $0.05 in gas, oil, and tires (used to be $0.03 back when gas was cheap and the compression was good). So of the $0.33/mile my cost has averaged about $0.07/mile leaving $0.26/mile "profit". At 60mph, that is $15.60 or the equivalent of a $22.60/hour wage before taxes.So I am definitely "making" a fair bit on mileage. A total of about $28,000 for the business miles which more than pays for the 2/3 of the miles that have been personal. I realize that many construction workers drive POS, domestically made, gaz-guzzling trucks. It may be a small-dick thing, but that's their choice. In "House", Tracy Kidder comments on the correlation between short carpenters and big trucks. With those vehicles, the purchase price, repairs, and fuel costs may be 3X to 5x of what mine are. That would indeed eat up the mileage allowance. I do get some odd looks when I load 15 sheet of CDX or 400 feet of 2" PVC conduit on my Yakima rack. And Home Depot made me sign a waiver before loading a full-sized fridge on top, but it has always worked fine. A few times a year I rent or borrow a full-sized truck to haul masonary, cord wood, or multiple appliances, but $100/year of rental is trivial.And more about hotel rooms: Ask if they have any specials going on. Try the national toll-free number and also call the location direct. Every price survey that does gets quoted widely varying rates. -David
*RE: negotiating room rates. While I was working in internal audit (that's a 'live on the road' job) we learned that it wasn't a good practise to push beyond the corporate rack rates, or possibly the holiday specials; however, services were always up for grabs - upgrade to larger rooms - full-sized fridge - if you rent 4+ rooms, then ask for a party room for the evenings. - continental breakfast and a paper - free thermos fills in the morning - box lunch (well, maybe a wrapped sandwich) - hotel limo takes you dinner - 1 free drink ticket for happy hour PS, don't know your budget, but I liked "suite" hotels so that I could make my own snacks/tea/coffee and save a bundle.
*Try Priceline.com for the hotel rooms. We stayed in a really nice Marriot in Salt Lake City for $40/night, plus $15 to upgrade to a suite. Rented an Oldsmobile Bravada for $25/day the same way.Andy
*IRS allows $.33/mile (or there abouts) and $25/day for food without reciepts. A fair deal is either those amounts or actual expenses (including wages for driving).And a private room.And you bill your client. If he ill not pay, you don't do the work.
*I would agree with Bill on the costs of using personal vehicles for work. David- Was that a picture of your cousin or brother-in-law that I saw over in the woodshed? You know, the one with a whold bunk of plywood on the roof of a jetta (or something like that) and a half ton of concrete in the trunk? I have broken down my costs of operation, and $.33/mile just about breaks me even. I don't know about you, but how many tools do you have to carry? I do alot of remodeling, so every tool is almost essential. I really don't see how I would get along without a full size truck.Josh- I agree with the poster who said that you should pay for travel time that exceeds the normal days travel. It's not their fault that you took the far away job. From a sometime employees point of view- I would expect all my expenses to be paid for (reasonable motel accomodations, food, long distance travel gas.. etc.), would want to work alot of hours with overtime to get done with the job as soon as possible and get back to my family/life, and would be appreciative of any perks- phone card, bonus, paying for a movie on a rainy night, tool donation. Hope everything turns out well for you.Jon
*Josh, I work for a company with a per diem rate that includes 33 cents/mile, 5/10/20 for meals, individual motel room. No money for travel, alcohol, valet parking, golf, etc. Got in a real bind with the company when I stayed at a four-star resort, eventhough I negotiated the room rate down to $130 a night from $180, when the boss stayed at a flea-bag down the street for $39 a night.
*Jon: Everyone I've ever worked with has sent me that photo of a Jetta. That my car works fine after 277,000 miles and has only needed a new gas-gauge sender unit and a clutch master cylinder suggests I'm not overloading - just taking it to the limit. Mostly I'm doing plumbing and electrical so my tools are less voluminous than some. Even when a truck is available, I'm a big beleiver in having supplies delivered. Our expertise is building things. Let the truck drivers do the deliveries.I agree that for some trades, a big truck makes sense. But so often, a F350 shows up with a carpenter, tool belt, and a donut inside. Seems inefficient to me. I've traveled a lot and built a few things in Europe and no contractor there has a 9 mpg behemoth, even though most houses are stone or masonary. Trying to think outside the box, David
*We get $17.50 a day food, hotel room( days Inn) and eight hours a day plus overtime worked.
*thanks I agree with many of you However Jon "its not their fault you took a job so far away"that is trueI guess we could all sit at home wishing we had work and get no pay at alla job on the road is better then no job at allthen again there is always flipping hamburgersI would prefer no over night travelI have a family, a farm, a wife I love. I do not want to be away.but I need to pay bills and when I see a slack week local or a busy week away, I got to go.that is why I posted this the first timeI want to do what is best for everyone, without making the bid so high we are all sitting at home thinking, could of , should of, how much is that bill ?
*Josh, having BT & DT, I would suggest that the rooms be direct-billed to you (your credit card), making sure that the management understands, in writing, that you are only responsible for the room rate and that the XXX-movies, room service charges, etc., are not your responsibility. Pay meals up to a daily cap. Pay regular wages for travel plus mileage. The phone card is a good idea. Be aware that some people live awfully close to the bone and you may have to front someone some money. Be fair and reasonable.
*Josh, you're not partners with those guys so don't spect them to give in order to stay busy. Besides, how do you think the quality builders in that town feel when some underpaid guys come into their area and don't competitively bid. You may not only hang yourself in the process. You set a standard and then go back home. Let your reliability and quality of work be the deciding factor. Don't get me wrong. If you can maintain your workers and give them their due, not just break even and keep food on the table and ask them to give in, and competitively bid out of town, then go for it.
*If they drive their vehicle, they should get the standard IRS rate, $0.345/mile. The IRS standard "per diem" rate for my area is $30/day meals, and $55/day for hotel. You can deduct that much per day with no receipts. That usually covers my expenses.I agree you should have a lower per hour rate for travel -- that's typical -- but they should be paid for travel in excess of their normal commute, as someone else said. The phone card is a good idea. 10 mins. per day should be enough, if you want to be generous, 15 mins. No alcohol -- you don't buy it for them when they're at home, do you?You want to develop a rate structure that allows you to KNOW what YOUR expenses are going to be, on every job, no matter how far away, or how long you stay. That way you can bid consistently and know you're not going to lose your butt. If you are non-union, push for 4 x 10's so they get an extra day off and you avoid a day's expenses. Sitting in a hotel room is soooo boring anyway.
*Keep your life simple. Look at what the IRS allows/rules and thier required documentation. If IRS allows $30/$55 give it to your quys, let them figure out if they want to share a room or if they want micky d's or prime rib. They are adults? Let them have full responsibility for their room and anything they do do it. Pay them their full hourly rate for travel, during the normal day, that's part of the job.Pay them the IRS milage.I work for a large "frugal" organization. Been "imposed" on many times dealing with travel and travel costs. Use the KISS principle and treat them like adults. Be fair but not cheap or extravagent. Keep to IRS rules. Do it the simplist way the IRS will accept.
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we have a job that will take us out of the area for a few days , up to a week. And I see more of this in the future, but not a whole lot.
If I have to take employees out of the area This is what my old employer would do so I thought this is a good thing, pay travel time one way, I would supply the transportation, hotel room and 2 meals a day and a 30 minute phone card. They would have to share a room with one other , unless they want to pay the difference, and the meals were on me if they went with me, with a limit on what they had.
I want to offer the employees something fair. I asked two of them the other day and one wanted pay for every minute he is gone from home and the other said no cap on meals and drinks and travel paid both ways. It is a 4 hour drive.We will be gone 4 days maybe 5
Opinions and ideas please.I need to come up with something so I can give the client a price, and I need to set a new policy for the future