So, I hired a new guy. He’s fantastic, 25 years of experience, knows his stuff inside and out. But… his safety habits are making my blood run cold. How do you guys establish and enforce safety practices? I’m not looking to play “it’s my way or the highway” kinds of scenarios, not that I’m not willing or capable of that but rather I realize that this guy has done things this way for 25 years and I’m not going to change him by threatening him. I’d rather…motivate him 😉
PaulB
Replies
If it's that bad give him a raise, have him go get his own insurance and a 10-99 at the end of the year.
LOL... well, it's probably "the usual" to many guys but I don't want to be the guy calling his wife to meet us at the hospital. I've had too many close calls to take chances anymore myself, so maybe it's just me "projecting" but...PaulB
25 years or 40 years experience is no excuse for bad safety habits. He or she will contaminate others and challenge your authority.
On my sites, it is my way or the highway.
Gabe
send him to the house for the day, next day do it again, again, again,again> He will finally get the picture. Or you could call his wife and say you going to fire her husband.
Not sure if this will help but as a condition of continued employment have him sign a release stating that he will all assume any and all OSHA fines levied while he is on the job site and further to hold you harmless for any and all injuries incurred by him on the job. Probably won't hold up in a legal environment but will probably make him think... Further hold your weekly safety meetings complete with a signed training roster and give Mr. X a copy of your state OSHA book and make him the company safety officer and give him a token raise for the added responsibility to put a positive spin on it. :-) Also, I assume you have your company safety manual with copies distributed to each employee ... As an FYI I've been in front of an informal OSHA review... wouldn't wish it on anyone...
Not sure if this will help but as a condition of continued employment have him sign a release stating that he will all assume any and all OSHA fines levied while he is on the job site and further to hold you harmless for any and all injuries incurred by him on the job. Probably won't hold up in a legal environment but will probably make him think...
Probably? Completely and utterly illegal
Further hold your weekly safety meetings complete with a signed training roster and give Mr. X a copy of your state OSHA book and make him the company safety officer and give him a token raise for the added responsibility to put a positive spin on it. :-)
Good idea
Also, I assume you have your company safety manual with copies distributed to each employee
Good point
As I understand it, from my karate instructor 2 decades ago; it doesn't matter what kind of disclaimer waiver you have someone sign if you show gross negligence your #### is grass.
"Not sure if this will help but as a condition of continued employment have him sign a release stating that he will all assume any and all OSHA fines levied while he is on the job site and further to hold you harmless for any and all injuries incurred by him on the job."I don't think you can legally do this with an employee, or if you could, it would not hold up in court. The employee is not a free-agent and has no authority to run the jobsite or make necessary investments in time or equipment for safety and training. It is your responsibility as the employer to train your employees on proper safety standards, to have safety standards in place and better yet, have a safety plan in place and have your employees sign off on receiving and reviewing a safety handbook and/or training session.You keep the sign-off with the employment records.You have safety rules in place, you know them, post them when you can and enforce them. An employee who violates your safety rules after knowing full well what they are is no different than an employee intentionally ignoring any other of your rules or proper work methods. They aren't playing with the team and as such, should be reprimanded, that recorded and if they don't change by a certain (specified to them and in writing) time, then out. Period.I don't see how this is any different than any other employee issue and a general pain in the neck all around. I have subs and prefer to monitor them for safety compliance, as I rarely have to.
and, if anybody get hurt on the job, get a drug test within hour.it will save your butt
"and, if anybody get hurt on the job, get a drug test within hour.it will save your butt"absolutely and fill out that paper work, as an employer you will drown in pounds and pounds of dead forests.
Help me out here. Who gets the drug test? Me? Him? The two hippies in the vw van going surfing up the coast?
Working on a commercial office remodel right now. The GC doesn't care about any safety rules. What he does care about is if somebody gets hurt, his premiums go way up.
No boots, no hat, don't bother coming to work. They kick anyone off the job untill they have boots and hat. NO exceptions.
They also spend about 75 grand a year on their safety program.
Its not a mister big stuff thing. He gets hurt you stand to lose alot. If i'm paying someone they will work as safely as possible or they wont work.
It doesnt do anyone any good if he or someone else is hurt on the site.
Try "motivating him" by giving him the day off unpaid. These days (sue happy society) there's too much to risk.
If you have a safety policy, or are working on a job which has one, you can make sure he knows the requirements and lives up to them.
What does he do that you're finding unsafe?
Give him the "importance of safety" speech or the "gov't has passed new laws" speech and then put him in charge of safety. You could also sweeten the pot with a year end bonus for no accident claims.
If that doesn't work, then try the "it's my way or the highway" speech.
Dave
Thanks for all the feedback guys...PaulB
Cut a hand off in front of him. That usually does a bunch towards motivating. If that doesn't work then do what Doctor Dave says. A company I used to work at gave a yearly safety bonus if you went accident free. If anyone on your crew had an accident then that guy got nothing, and you got half of the full bonus. It was a nice thing for the guys that wanted to be safe anyway. And it motivated some of the schleps to tighten up.
"Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously." G.K. Chesterton
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Paul I run my guys similar to you I think. I really don't like to have to put the "boss" hat on very much. Sometimes it's gotta be done though.... and safety is one of those times. At the end of the day I don't care how my guys go about getting something built.... as long as it satisfies my standards of quality, is completed in a reasonable amount of time, and is done safely.
Somethings aren't worth nitpicking over. This is. Correct it now because it will only get harder to do it later.
Be careful not to word it in such a way as to imply that he or his ways are "wrong". And I'd tell him about specific things you've seen him do......."Hey I was watching you do XXXX the other day and to be honest it really made me nervous. I really don't feel comfortable having you do that....blah, blah, blah". Also explain that it's not a race and he can take whatever time he needs to get set up appropriately.... make a push stick, set up proper staging, get a saw instead of karate chopping the wood, whatever it is. And cover all of it (or is much of it as you can recall) all in that one 'talk' you have with him. If you keep coming at him every time he gets back to work it will come across as nitpicking and you'll set him off.
Have the talk. Get it over with. And get on the same page. It's tough to give raises when your W/C rate goes through the roof. (I use that one from time to time)View Image
Excellent excellent excellent Brian... thank you!PaulB
I'm gonna back up Brian, but I've got to rearrange the priorities. Safety is job one. I've have a bunch of smart guys in the lead, but the it seems the pencil with the dullest lead is the one that takes the time to set up properly. He's caught on to the fact that he's not invincible.I arrived at a job site today and all 5 guys had their harnesses on. Not a single rope on the site. "We left them at home". Fortunately, home was less than a mile away and they could probably still hear me yelling when they got there. You've got to be the ahole sometimes. I'd rather have some guy pissed off at me than have to dial 911 and then call his wife/mother/girlfriend.http://grantlogan.net/
thats like hard hats. I have two. one in the work truck, one in the personal truck. If I cover a job on the way home, I dont forget the work hat at home.
There ya go. What's a hard hat cost? A dollar five ninety nine?
What's an OSHA fine cost? A dollar fifteen thousand ninety nine?http://grantlogan.net/
I'm like diesel I don't like to put the boss hat on very often either but safety is one of those times. Although, unlike a lot of this nice ways of telling him to be safe, I'm a hard arse. I don't mess around with safety. Every is told when there hired. We have safety meetings, courses if need,(fall protection for example) and I've now started to give fines to my guys if there not safe. When they whine and complain I tell them its to pay the higher insurance premiums I have to pay if they kepp this up. I don't mess around with safety. As much as I think I'm a good boss most of the time, which I am, Im not when you being unsafe.
Sorry Grant.... but I gotta ask......why did they even bother wearing the harnesses without ropes? That's like setting up the hoses and nailers and then hand nailing all day. :)View Image
>>>>>>>why did they even bother wearing the harnesses without ropes?'Cause I've got it beat into their heads to put the harnesses on before they leave the ground. Before they left for this job, they were organizing the back of the van (they had to make room for some materials which they seldom haul) and they'd coiled up the ropes very nicely and forgotten to put them back in when they headed for the job. Easy mistake to make, but instead of heading back to the house to get them, they started working. They were gonna go get them at lunch, but I arrived about a half an hour before lunch. Dale and Duane were working on a big commercial job (Duane posted some pics) and nobody but them on the job was tied off. All the framers had a hard hat and a harness on, but they didn't have any ropes.http://grantlogan.net/
Great advice!
Simple. Make safety rules. Enforce them strictly!!! I've seen too many good people(and a lot of dumb ones) get hurt. Don't like the sight. F#$%
encouragement or any type of new-age growth crap. We're talking safety; i.e. LIFE & LIMB. SERIOUSLY!!!!
What is the problem?
Very few contractors know and understand what their obligations are as far as safety and OSHA compliance are concerned. It's not an optional choice for you, you are required to meet their standards by law. Part of your obligation is to train your workers. You should have safety meetings and training sessions. You should be able to prove you have an active safety program, written records of meetings and other initiatives. You are also required to have written safety plans. An inspector can ask to see your emergency response plan or your fall safety or leading edge plan.
Once you get up to speed and start having safety meetings, issues regarding your obligations and those of your employees should be clearly understood by all your people. Not many businesses want to face fines because an employee doesn't want to know or follow the rules. Anyone with 25 yrs. experience who doesn't comply with basic safety rules, probably doesn't know much else. Is it worth jeopardizing your business for a non-compliant employee? You wouldn't put up with shoddy workmanship.
It's commendable that you want to educate and involve this person. If he won't wear safety glasses, I'd put him in charge of eye safety. I'd help him read OSHA standards and find eye safety films and info. The bottom line is, you are the boss, you built the business, it is your way, end of story. You don't have to say it like that but everyone should completely understand, that's the way it is.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Very few contractors know and understand what their obligations are as far as safety and OSHA compliance are concerned. It's not an optional choice for you, you are required to meet their standards by law. Part of your obligation is to train your workers. You should have safety meetings and training sessions. You should be able to prove you have an active safety program, written records of meetings and other initiatives. You are also required to have written safety plans. An inspector can ask to see your emergency response plan or your fall safety or leading edge plan
Well written, hammer1.
Paul, while you are getting up to speed with hammers suggestions, start by having daily safety tailgates and job briefings. You are already assigning work each day, so it is simple to point out the hazards that accompany each job. That is your job briefing. Have each crew member sign a form showing that they attended the briefing. Your safety tailgates need to cover specific topics and should also be documented as to subject and signed off on by those that attended.
I'm not sure if any of that helps in liability issues, but it shows that you are complying with OSHA regs and goes a long way in minimizing any fines they may levy during an accident investigation. It is also a very good start in building a "culture of safety" within your company. That culture is ultimately what is going to reduce the risk of injuries. When everyone is aware and watching out for themselves and those around them, you win.
Dave
That's all good but I don't really give a damn 'bout fines compared to seeing somebody standing there with a bloody stump....Seen too many stupid accidents that cause grave injuries . These powerful tools, the heights and depths we work in are dangerous as ####.
Stay alive and healthy so you can play catch with your kid and someday your grandkid.SMILE!LAUGH!!!HUG!!!!!AND (wait for it....) #### 'EM ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been in the industry 17 and a bit years and had to adapt to alot of changes, some good, some almost stupid . There is justification for ALL . When I first started people gave me a hard time about earmuffs and safety glasses , well one such fool is missing an eye! Anyhow we're in an industry that demands change 2 years or 32 on site no excuse for ignorance . In this day and age we all have to comply if your an employer or employee. I've had to learn the hard way, please don't follow my example of losing everything because you have someone who can produce alot but is contaminating the your own safety efforts ! Warn him ,no result let him go ! If he does improve make sure he dosen't slip back to his old ways .Good luck
I had one young guy work for me who enjoyed challenging himself to work fast without regard for safety. He was very good at heights but took more risks than most. Just a little too reckless, wore it like a badge.
I decided to teach him safety by making him follow other kinds of disciplines first. So next morning I started with how he parked his truck, taking up extra space that might be needed by a visitor, like the GC. Then I got into how he tied his boots, explaining that there's no ankle support when the laces are left out of the top three eyelets. It was about that time that he got the message.
"This is about me walking down those rafters yesterday, isn't it"?
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When we broke for lunch, he'd been straddling the ridge on the chalet we were building, moving along, nailing the rafters, while two of us nailed them to the plates. When I called lunch I told him to hang out for a minute while I went for the extension ladder.
He said, "don't bother, I'll be right down". He hooked his toolbelt on a nail, raised himself up and proceeded to walk down two of the 12/12 2x10 rafters...forwards. About half way down both of the rafters began to quiver due to the strain in his leg muscles, trying to hold steady. He made it through that OK, got down to the plate and dropped like a cat onto the floor, a big smile on his face.
"Cheated death again", he said.
He'd won our admiration, everyone of us, so it wasn't the best moment to talk about safety. One thing for sure, none of the rest of us were going to try that move. Him neither, I suspected, not after that big quiver.
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"Yeah, that's right", I replied with a chuckle, "You're smarter than you look".
"You too", he said, laughing with me.
After that, it was easy to gain his cooperation, not just on safety. He became a real team player and lead by example, producing quality work and helping other guys without being asked. He even tied up his boots and parked his truck more carefully, even though he knew that I wouldn't have mentioned those things again.
You have to TALK to him! If he dosen't know there is a prob. how can he change it?
Ummm... I have in a lighthearted way like:
I gotta tell you Joe, your safety habits are scaring the crap outta me
Obviously, I'm planning my next step.PaulB
You have to realize if something goes wrong, you as the employer is the one that will take it up the azz! Give out SIGNED [by him] warning slips and if he dosen't comply, get rid of him. Things have changed from the old days when there were no rules. Lots of luck.
I missed if you said exactly what the guy does that's so unsafe...I train my guys by making them look at my scars<G> Outside of the gates the trucks were unloadin',
The weather was hot, a-nearly 90 degrees.
The man standin' next to me, his head was exploding,
Well, I was prayin' the pieces wouldn't fall on me.
All the usual... removing or pinning back guards, not wearing safety glasses (in spite of my handing them to him), playing cat burglar on staging, reaching in front of circ saw cuts etc etc etc.PaulB
Except for playing cat burglar (that sounds like it might be amusing), I've had guys do everyone of those things, get warned, someone got hurt, and I got to pay for it. I'm sorry, but that guy's off of my job. Outside of the gates the trucks were unloadin',
The weather was hot, a-nearly 90 degrees.
The man standin' next to me, his head was exploding,
Well, I was prayin' the pieces wouldn't fall on me.
The 1099 suggestion won't help you. You are responsible for sub-contractor injuries too.
The release won't help. Workmen's comp laws hold strict employer liability for work place safety.
The only thing that you can do is terminate an employee that doesn't follow standard operating procedure.
Bill
Paul have you looked at these things...http://www.toolboxtopics.com/Construction/index.htmthere are plenty of sites that offer similar versions of them free, and some charge, but the point is , the DAILY talks provide reinforcement that YOU are serious about job and personal safety.. plus everyone gets to sign the things ,which can be ordered as multiple copiesaround here we used to sign it AND provide our SSN next to our sig.... I've listened to so many of them I can almost mimic the guy who is reading it aloud.perhaps you could add your opinion to coincide with whatever topic is being discussed and take the opportunity to point the finger at any "offenders".
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
Good link Chris, ty. I'm folding all these ideas into my "game plan". I'd like to find a way to have this guy "smarten up" while still keeping him (and hopefully keep him happy on the job as well)PaulB
another style of safety talk was used by the big industries here..they would share there incident reports weekly !with an emphasis on the fatal accidents. and every week had at least one of those..there was one week with THREE asphyxiation, (2)
exploding pressure vessels, (5)
run over by a bulldozer (1)
amputations, (numerous)
burned by molten steel, (numerous)
explosions, (3)
falling from heights, (many) it doesn't take much to get hurt , it does take some effort to stay alert too, need to keep you head outta your duffel bag ....Ok this is a good site too:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/injury/traumafall.htmlalso,check out the FACE reports on their site.
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Edited 5/27/2007 11:29 am by maddog3
I broke my arm and knee at work, it was all because of Boss, saying hurry up, hurry up, do it before lunch, hurry up
what went wrong?.
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
You seem like an ok guy, you might want to reconsider waiting for him to straighten out. The settlements could be a whole lot more than he could ever make for you. I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more.
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more.
Well, she talks to all the servants
About man and God and law.
Everybody says
She's the brains behind pa.
She's sixty-eight, but she says she's twenty-four.
I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more.
Paul, we use a variety of discipline actions for safety violation. ranging from verbal warnings (minor incident) though written warnings (2 in 6 mos.-yer gone), to paid or unpaid days off (serious), and immediate discharge. We also empower every employee to stop any job if they see a safety rule violation taking place, or unsure if what they are doing is the safe way. the company also tries to track "near miss" incidents by allowing their reporting through a no penalty clause in our safety program. If you get into the research aspect of safety, you will see that there is a pyramid of many "near miss" and minor incidents before there is a serious accident. Control those issue and you avoid the big ones.
Dave
That's a simple four part senario.
First simply tell him, "Hey John we need to keep the blade guards on the circ saw functional." Enough said. There isn't a discussion, vote, or any confrontation. You're simply letting him know the boundaries.
If it happens again repeat the sentance above and take away one brownie point.
When he's out of brownie points tell him, "John, unwiring your blade guard has to happen or this isn't going to work out."
Finally, when he rewires his guard as soon as you're driving away let him go. He's taking up space that's better suited to a carpenter you do want to work with. You've given him plenty of space to make the decision and he decided you're not worth listening to.
I could care less how many years a guy has under his belt or how good he is if there is something about him or his actions that is a deal killer, it's simply a deal killer.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Hi Paul,
I rarely chime in here on the boards, I'm an engineer and builders (for the most part) think little of our services or knowledge. We are merely the"college boy".
During my construction career (started out as a form carp) I have been on jobs where, due to 'ruled' accident or plain old mother nature the guy you were working beside yesterday is gone. To say the least........it makes one think.
Personally, I think the dumbest thing I have done concerns eye protection. I rarely work in the field anymore but, when duty requires, my safety glasses go on before my hard hat!!!
In closing I can only state that I am happy to be able to see this clearly with both eyes.
Were it my insurance !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
one of the problem with safety is over and over and over its like reruns. I must attend at least three safety meeting a week. some are eight hours long. its pretty borning and alot dont apply to me so you fall asleep. You want to enforce safety.But a boot up his azz. thats the only way.
now that you have announced that you are aware of his unsafe work habits, what is going to happen if he causes a wreck that hurts someone else? The lawyers will be dividing you assets. I think it should be the safe way or the highway.
good luck
john