I hired a structural engineer to engineer a fairly complicated home that is sort of on a cliff. We agreed upon a price for him to prepare all of the needed drawings, calcs , etc. He also stated in his contract that on site inspections would be billed at an hourly rate. I seem to remember him saying that he was going to pay close attention to the installation of the micro-piles and also do special inspections on the welding of the structural iron work. (he doesn’t remember things the same way and his contract doesn’t state what will be inspected) . So he comes by and gives me a bill today, I ask what it is for. He sez that he has been comeing up to the site and checking my rebar and forms. I told him that that is unnessary and unwanted and a waste of my money. (The city has to inspect before I can pour.) He sez if he is going to engineer the job , he is going to inspect things periodicly and thats that.
Is there any standard methods of operation for engineers concerning site visits? This is the 1st time I’ve had to hire one. Seems like I might as well give him a blank check .
I am not happy with this guy for several other reasons (4 months later than promised and not a vast understanding of building in general).
Replies
Gee.....an engineer that can't build?!!!!
Nothing surprising there! There's good ones and bad ones. You really haven't offered any proof one way or the other...only your opinion and it's theoretically possible that it's you that doesn't understand...so I'll withhold any comments or judgments.
Why don't you think he has a vast understanding of building in general?
Next...you're probably gonna tell me about Architects that make awful drawing decisions....
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Exactly!! Maybe it is me that doesn't understand about engineer site visits. Am I off base or not.
Wanna take a stab at the question I posed origionally?
Sorry, I really can't comment because I don't know. We don't use building engineers here. The only people using them are the architects on bigger projects...and ....it's all flat here.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
How can you tell when a politician is lying?Kinda the same thing, only different.(Hey, I are one, but the only sites I visit are web sites.)
I'm gonna answer you, not because I'm a big building expert, but because I've basically just been through what you are looking at. Not building on a cliff, but building an engineered custom house.
Funny side story -- I called the engineer one day when we were just getting started. He was going to make some computations on my roof framing -- doing a tradeoff calculation between a steel ridge with few supports and LVL ridge with more frequent supports dumped into floor trusses (no place for posts on the 1st floor). I guess I didn't word the questions correctly or whatever, he gets all upset and yells at me for a few minutes. Tells me "If you want a box, then build a box, but if you want a unique house, then you need to let me do my job". Fortunately I have thick skin, I shrugged it off and on this end of the project we have a good relationship -- end Funny side story.
At any rate, I'd give the guy some slack. If I'm engineering a house on a cliff, I'd like to be there to look at some things too. Your inspectors probably don't know their head from their...you know. Whatever the engineer put in the diagrams is what has to be done and they just sign off that your house matches drawings. But put yourself in his shoes...He certainly isn't going to trust the BI to catch all the details that he has certainly thought about (even though they are in the drawings). And what about your relationship with him -- does he suspect you might "just leave out a few pieces of rebar"? I'm not trying to stir anything up, just try to look at the risk he is taking by engineering a house on a cliff. If it falls off...uhhh....big money is involved because people will die. He has done his calcs and now he wants to make sure it becomes reality. Do you really want to argue with the guy 5 years later (when the house goes down into the valley) over whether you actually put (4) #4 rebar in that footing or was it 3?
Another thing to keep in mind - sometimes it is hard to see ALL the details when drawing something. It's possible that he is wanting regular inspections in case something occurs to him as he is staring at the real deal. I'm not sure I would mind that.
The things I would do...
1. Get a digital camera and photo every detail. Maybe he would appreciate daily updates. Allow him to request pictures of any detail he wants.
2. Ask him if we could keep the site visits to true necessities. I wouldn't want him out there inspecting joist hanger nailing, but welds and other absolutely critical links - yeah let him have at it.
3. I'd ask myself -- how much will this guy increase my TOTAL cost of building this house - and is that worth absolute liability on his part? "You inspected it, it was built like you designed, why isn't it working?".
Just my thoughts. Good Luck. Post us some pictures.
MERC
Excellent response DJ
Eureka! I finally understand!
I was wondering why that engineer kept encouraging you to go back under that house that had us all so concerned a while back. :-)>
Ah good memory you have! But 'tis was a *different* engineer, though both engineers are friends (via being neighbors and some professional work together). The engineer who said the house was doing fine up on posts was the ICF guy, the other guy was the structural design engineer for all the steel and ridge, etc. However, after the basement was complete ICF engineer brought the structural engineer out to show him the job (trying to convince him to use the ICF for his upcoming house project). The structural engineer was quite impressed that we pulled it off (including putting in a 1200 lb piece of steel with a bobcat). He said something like "when I was sizing all this stuff, I just couldn't believe it could be done".
MERC.
I'm a consulting electrical engineer. On most projects, I do the design work for a fixed fee, and then any work during the construction period (like site visits) is done on an hourly-not-to-exceed basis. I'll spell out in my proposal how many site visits I expect to make, along with other tasks such as reviewing shop drawings, preparing record drawings after construction is complete, that sort of thing. The customer knows the maximum amount it's going to cost him up front, and if things go well during construction it'll probably cost him a little less. As far as I know, here in Minneapolis this is pretty typical.
It sounds like it may be too late to do much about the contract you have in place with this guy, but I'd think you could at least tell him to contact you before he makes any additional visits so you won't be surprised when his bill shows up at the end of the month.
Personally, I think he's trying to milk the project...most engineers I know would rather minimize the number of site visits they make, because they chew up so much time. For instance, I have to go out to a job site myself tomorrow morning, and it's going to shoot half the day just driving there and back.
I work for engineers so I know your problem. Good thing about having an engineer, the county inspector cannot touch you. But you need to have a talk with the firm, not the engineer but the office manager and say I got this much money for you and thats all. dont pay by hour but by job, let him bid it. Its usually a little less than 2% of job cost.
sounds to me like he's milking the project as well. Have a talk with him. Tell him he can do whatever he wants, but he can't charge you because he feels like showing up whenever he wants. Tell him that's why you had a contract and a price, and it wasn't so he could charge you once under the contract and again whenever the hell he felt like it.
Tell him you'll work out something fair with him, but you're not his ATM and he can't charge you when you didn't ask for something. That he wants to do it this way is his problem, not yours, and if this was the only way he'd do the job, he should have put it into his contract. Remember, he wrote the contract so he's responsible for its content and omissions. If he doesn't like it, he should have spelled it out in his contract, and then you could have hired someone else.
SHG
Speaking in support of the engineer (yep, I are one) his liability for design can theoretically outlast him. Never heard of this happening but the possibility is there.
Insofar as his site visits are concerned it's a CYA thing for his records. You may also find that if you take a less adversarial approach he may even turn out to be of great assistance.
Consider this scenario:
"Hello, Mr. Engineer, we've got a minor problem. Just yesterday, after we layed out the pile boring locations we got a heavy rain. No, no we don't have to lay out all the locations again but we lost the outermost pile location on the SE corner due to minor washout. Since we know where the next one is and we've verified it's location using your CP can we use this location as reference to LO the one we lost???" Papershuffling, computer clicking, more papershuffling.........."Yes, I don't see a problem with that." No site visit, no visit fee. A win/win for both parties.
As far as the site visit hourly rate is concerned I'm sure it is stated somewhere in whatever paper was exchanged between yourself and this engineer. If you were under the impression that his visits would be gratis after the design was complete, consider it a tuition payment.
Best Regards.
Thanks for the reply.
Yes I have tried to stay on the friendly side of the guy. I know I need him as a team player if this project is to go smoothly. But it seems as though every time he comes up to the site he has some "little" suggestion that is only going to cost several hundred dollars and take several extra hours. I question a lot of these ideas ( and he usually drops the idea) as to their true value.
I think I sort of P Oed him when I told him my philosphy towards engineering a home. "If one nail will hold the board adequetly, than two nails isn't 'super strong' , it's just the waste of a nail and the labor to install it. " He doesn't seem to buy in to that philosphy.
Yes , I was well aware that there would be a hourly rate for site inspections. But what is bugging me is that he has been up to the site maybe 3 to 6 times to look at my rebarr. And there are not any problems. Both he and the city inspectors have both said I was doing an excellent job on my forms and concrete placement. (I am having to do mulitple pours, complicated three level foundation.) Sorry I can't say exactly how many times he has been up, because I didn't get an itemized bill or any type of written report from him. I usually here about the "inspection" during a phone call to him concernig some other matter.
FWIW, I would schedule a little get together with this engineer and try to come to a reasonable idea of the number of site visits that will be required throughout the rest of the project.
As a civil engineer I typically like to inspect rebar placement prior to a pour, any structural framing that my firm may have designed (timber or steel), roof truss erection and sheathing. The reasons for these, as I'm sure you're aware, are to make sure bolt numbers match drawings as to pattern and type, trusses are properly constructed (prefab or stick), and roof sheathing is nailed off properly if specified by engineer.
As I'm just kind of thinking out loud, it appears that this engineer doesn't get out much and any excuse to get away from the office is a good one. Unfortunately, every time he leaves it's costing you money.
Here's hoping you can come to a reasonable agreement with the engineer to limit his site visits to critical items only.
Best Regards
I'd suggest you talk with the engineer about what he plans to inspect. Since none of us know him or anything about your project, we can't tell if he's milking it or being reasonable.
I think only a dialog between you and him can straighten this out.
We are communicateing, although at times things are a litttle tense. I have questioned him about the inspections and he replies that he is going to inspect any project that he works on, and thats that. I guess he likes looking at rebar placement a lot.
First of all, what do you mean by "..sort of on a cliff"?
A very senseless statement.
Sorry for being vague about the "cliff" aspect . I guess I felt it would distract from my true question.
The site has approx. 30 foot of drop in 50 feet and about 1/2 of the home will be attached to exposed bedrock. The other half went thru 10 to 15 of soil to attache to bedrock via micro-piles.
I just knew I was going to regret saying "sort of a cliff" and I do.
I think he should have enlightened you as to his additional charges when you first spoke about his fees.
However I would not be surprised if he made visits on site at critical processes of construction and charged for his time.
I would have a problem if he stopped in every time he drove past the site just to pad the bill.
You need to have a talk with him about what inspections are neccesary
What does your contract say about site visits? We include a set number of visits in our design fee and they are spelled out in writing. The site visits are a very important aspect of just about every project for a number of reasons.
I would suggest that you have him make a list of the critical junctures where he needs to inspect before the next step and agree to contact him at those junctures so he can do his job at the agreed rate with no surprises.
All my contract sez, is that all site visits (inspections ) will be billed at XXX. I do not have a problem with site visits when I am at a critical point ( I actually want them , and would demand he come up and take a look. After all , thats why I hired him - to engineer the place and relieve me of some responsibilty) But fer gods sake how many times do you have to look at good forms and correctly sized and installed rebarr.
Next step, get a list of the site inspections he deems necessary and ask him to notify you before coming out if he thinks additional site visits will be required. If he's been out as often as you say, for the reasons you say, it sounds like he may be over doing it with the billing.
Clear communication, preferably in writing, about all future site visits you need to budget for, should help define both of your expectations and allow a good relationship to continue.
What I have decided to do is request that the engineer make an appointment with me to do all inspections. I am also going to request a report for every inspection.
Hopefully the above will make me and the engineer happy. I want to thank everyone who responed to my question.
>What I have decided to do is request that the engineer make an appointment with me to do all inspections. Agreed. But word it so that it's more for your benefit than to question his practices. It'll grease the skids better that way. Tell him that it will be easier for you to understand what he's recommending if you're able to have things pointed out to you while you're on-site. Certainly easier than trying to explain things over the phone.>I am also going to request a report for every inspection.A report costs money to prepare. What's that gonna cost you, and what's the benefit to you? An alternative is that YOU prepare a written record of what was discussed and cc him. It'll cost you less. Pros and cons.
>>I am also going to request a report for every inspection.I'm with Cloud - I don't think that is necessary (especially if you are there) and can really skyrocket your costs.Consider this: If you are going to be there at his inspections, take a note pad and summarize what he says. Then type it and send it too him for him to sign off on."Here's what I understood you to be saying at the inspection on xx/yy//zz. Please initial and reurn 1 copy if I've understood you."If I haven't gotten it right, please give me a call."The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
The good thing about the engineering business is they do have a code of ethic. They protect this code. If an engineer was in fact trying to screw you he woulld be run out of town by his peers.Now on placement of rebar. This is very important on the inspection schedule. I feel the engineer is not doing you wrong, all this is normal in the commerical side of construction. I think they is a different of what you was expecting and what happens. A communcation problem.
>>The good thing about the engineering business is they do have a code of ethic. Ummmmmmmm.So do lawyers!Helps you sleep better, right? {G}
I agree with you, likely it's a communication problem.
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Edited 11/24/2004 11:29 am ET by Bob Walker
The placement of rebar is certainly critical in some cases and may deserve engineering scrutiny. There was a building in Minneapolis some years back that started to collapse (had to be closed for about a year of repairs) due to misplaced rebar in the columns.
The good thing about the engineering business is they do have a code of ethic. They protect this code. If an engineer was in fact trying to screw you he woulld be run out of town by his peers.
You clearly haven't done business with the only two engineers that this town has to offer. One is worse, but it's close. With difficulty, after dealing with both, I got what I needed. Go back? Not likely.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
A little late to the party, but here's my story. I asked my cousin, who lives about 5 hours away, about doing our engineering. I know he's good and honest. Apart from being family, I've been told by his draftsman that my cousin is the most honest person he's ever worked with. Anyway, my cousin said he would do my engineering at way below his normal rate if I really needed it, but he would rather not because he couldn't make enough site visits that far away. He said that he would normally make about five visits to a site (he works in the LA area so there are major seismic/hillside/mudslide issues). He said "I've never done a job where the contractor didn't have something major missing. They always say 'Oh, you don't need that', but they don't run the numbers and don't know all the seismic requirements."He said getting rid of rebar, structural members, tie-downs and so on were common and he often had to ask for things to be redone according to his drawings.
My opinion is that there is nowhere near enough information to determine whether he is doing a proper job or milking it.
He has made a (common) mistake, though, in my opinion: he has failed to let you know what to expect -
That is, he has failed (and you, to some minor extent, perhaps) has failed to manage your expectations.
Rule #1 with any profession delivering knowledge services is to make sure the client knows what to expect and # 2 is to keep the client informed throughout the process as to what is happening and why.
BTW, In an "tricky" or unusual situation like you apparently have, I would much rather pay an engineer to inspect than to rely on the building officials - not because I agree they don't know what they are doing, but they cannot possibly bring the same level of understanding that the design engineer will bring to the inspection.
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace