Hi guys,
It’s been awhile since I have posted here on Breaktime.
The renos on the bungalow are still ongoing. But they are just about finished. It’s been over a year now. Apparently we’ve run into another snag. The engineered hardwood floor was installed on Tuesday. I went up to inspect it on Wed. The guy said he’d finish installing it Thursday. So I went up to inspect yesterday and when I walked over the flooring in the livingroom All I could hear was a Cacophany of “squeaks”. The man who installed the flooring wasn’t there. So I drove directly to the Flooring store where I purchased the flooring. He agreed to come up to inspect the flooring next Tuesday. He thinks the problem is due to humidity and will take up his hygrometer and moisture meter when he comes on Tuesday. I mentioned to the manager that there was no EXPANSION GAP around the perimeter of the livingroom. He said that didn’t matter. I told him there was absolutely NO gap. not even 1/32nd of an inch. That flooring was TIGHT to the wall with no gap.
The installer obviously didnt’ read the installation guide that came with the flooring. I’ve read it cover to cover. It says to leave a 1/2″ gap all the way around the perimeter. They installer wants to blame it on the carpenter who laid the floor saying there was a bow in the subflooring . The manager wants to put it down to humidity saying the floor will settle in time. NO WAY! I am not going to swallow that BS! The guy the company hired to install the floor is at fault. He didn’t Says in the installation instructions for Award flooring.. “the installer assumes all responsibility for final inspection of product quality”, Before the install of the installer must determine that the environment of the job site and the condition and type of subfloor involved is acceptable, ensuring that it meets all the requirements stipulated in the installation instructions .. Installation site should have consistent room temp of 60-75 degrees F relative humidity level of 35-60% for a min of 5 days prior to installation
47″ length, width, 6.2″ thickness 1/2″ made in America Milano Copper Relics Collection. Special Patina Relics Collection. This flooring cost $11.99 sqft. (sliced veneer engineered hardwood)
I’m blaming the “squeaking problems on the installer. It’s an improper install. He used the Float-in installation method. That means he used tongue and groove glue/ no nails. Now if I’m not mistaken a floating floor has to be permitted to move. IT moves as a unit. So an expansion gap is necessary. So why is the manager of a flooring company telling me it doesn’t need a gap?? hmmmm
This engineered flooring was laid over a brand new plywood subfloor. Screws were used not nails. We went over the floor testing for squeaks. But to make sure we asked on several occassions for the company to have the installer come in to check to make sure the subflooring was ok before the floor was installed.
Now we have ourselves a problem. How the heck are they going to fix this F… up! ???????????? without destroying the floor.
Is it imperative for engineered flooring to be installed at right angles to the floor joists. which in my case it wasn’t but some people just say it’s a matter of personal preference. If you lay it along the longest length of the room it looks better.
This flooring was installed On Grade. The installer used foam underlayment. no staples just glue on the tongue and edges. But I have a sneaking suspician this guy nailed down a section in the middle of the floor. He mentioned how he had a difficult time because a section of flooring was bowed. So why did he continue his installation without notifying the customer??????????????
Wanda
Now
Edited 7/31/2009 1:53 pm by Wanda200
Replies
First of all, calm down. It won't do anybody any good to get that upset!>G<
That being said, unless someone speaks up with more flooring experience, I believe the squeaks are probably caused by the flooring laid with no gap at the edges. I had a simular problem with one of my floors, until I read the directions.
The flooring can be cut back at the edges, in my case a multimaster was the tool of chose!
Is it imperative for engineered flooring to be installed at right angles to the floor joists. which in my case it wasn't but some people just say it's a matter of personal preference. If you lay it along the longest length of the room it looks better.>>>>>>>>>>>
Personal preference if over min 3/4 plywood, I believe.
He mentioned how he had a difficult time because a section of flooring was bowed.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Should not have been used at the price you paid. Not for a floating floor!
Hi Framer,
What I meant was the subflooring. he was blaming my carpenter saying the subflooring was bowed.
How can anyone install an engineered hardwood floor with no expansion gap?????? My god! That proves to me this man has no experience laying flooring.
Wanda
I'd probably call the installer and tell him/her that the cost of demolition and a new floor, laid properly (in accord with the instructions) is XX dollars. And that you will be sending him/her the bill.
Be ready to meet him/her at the house for resolution. Which, as Frammer mentioned, can be done by cutting the expansion gap into the perimeter.
Why wasn't it naild down? And you're right, it needs a gap around the perimeter. Maybe not a full 1/2" because it's engineered material, but it should have a gap. Wow, you paid $11.99? You should have asked, we could have got it for half that.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Who pays (paid) the installer? I'm assuming he came through the company that sold you the flooring. If that's the case, the installation is their problem.Sharp flooring companies will put a moisture meter in the floor before they do anything... they don't want any problems, either.I'm also assuming you paid 1/2 down. If you put it on your credit card, dispute it, if there is a problem with the floor co./installer.You mentioned a carpenter being blamed for a bowed floor (what floor isn't?), then you say the floor is installed on grade. Is it on a slab or on wood?http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Look where she lives before commenting on price.
I have laid plenty of engeneered flooring, and have yet to nail any down.
Ok, I'll bite, what does Canada have to do with nailing the floor down?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hello Wanda,
The question of who´s to blame is a question of who pays/does the fix.
Answer: Installer-or 3rd party at installers cost.
This would be the course in Germany, where I live.
We lay tons of engineered hardwood flooring. Gap is essential, so if installer forgot- humidity changes, lateral movement...bla,bla - you learned all this- after the fact.
This is frustrating. We all do mistakes, the installer did´nt know, so it was not willful.
If you don´t scream at him, he should invest half a day to alleviate the problem.
Here´s the prescription:
Remove baseboards and nails around the perimeter.
Use a circularsaw with the blade close to the side. Tape the body (of the saw, not the carpenter) as to not scratch paint and wallpaper.
Set blade-depth to material thickness plus 1/16 of an inch.
We would use the FESTOOL 55. It has the blade at appr. 1/2 inch incl. Blade width distance to the wall. Dive in carefully (new, sharp blade) and cut around the sides. (Tip: If you tape the edges of the floor the waste will cone out in one piece) In the corners, use a FEIN multi-master. Under doors it is finicky. Best to remove the covers ( I don´t know the specific name).
Done.
Attach baseboards, smile.
Let the man know that his learning curve cannot be financed by you, but offer to share the damage.
Good karma, no dead bodies.
Mathias
You are right: cutting that gap in the side would be easy. I can't imagine more than a few minutes per side with my powersaw. I'd need a few more minutes to finish out the corners with a sawzall or chisel.
The bigger issue is the subfloor that wasn't flat enough. I don't know any easy fix for that. He'll have to open up the floor and add floor levelor. He might be able to take a hump out of it from below by cutting out a bad joist, or cutting up the joist and sistering it with a straight one.
It's hard to say without being there to assess the situation.
Good morning Velcro,
Yup, that's a quick fix providing the guy knows how to operate a circular saw/ multimaster tool. Can rent them from any Lowe's or Home Depot.
This guy claims to be a professional. Therefore an expansion gap should have been left. He didn't read the instructions in the manufacturer's installation guide that came with the material. It clearly says no matter what method you use to lay the floor to leave a 1/2" gap all the way around the perimeter of the room. I have laid laminate flooring before and even I know about leaving and expansion gap.
I"m in a bit of a pickle.. The flooring was paid for in April. It was on sale. 50% off. I have no leverage.
According to the manufacturer's installation guide it's the installers responsibility to check out the environment , material, and humidity before installing the floor. If there were problems they should have been rectified before install. The company was asked several times to come in and check the subflooring to make sure everthing was ok. The installer did come up to do an inspection but failed to notice any defects or problems he might encounter. It's too late now.
I'm pretty sure the installer nailed down a portion of the floor. Not just the starting strips near the walls. So if that's the case how the heck is he going to fix this mess?????? and the tongue and edges of the boards have been glued. You don't use nails in a Float-in installation.
Wanda
Edited 8/1/2009 7:44 am by Wanda200
There is an other potential problem area. One of the installation specs will be for the floor flatness. I don't know what specs are for this floor, but IIRC 3/16" in 10 ft is common.That can lead to the hollow sound that someone else mentioned. And I am not sure, but I think also squeaking.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
The floor teeters and totters if there are sharp voids in it.
Hi Wanda,The installer would (should) know where he nailed down the floor. If he doesn´t admit to it it would be because of fear. This can take a guy out.
If he nailed it in the middle, no problem if you have expansion joints. The only setback is that the floating method isn´t floating, i.e.: the sound separation is gone. This means you have the full impact of sound.
I guess he made all the mistakes you can do, except not using the right glue.
I have seen many men that proclaim to be professionals - hacks.
On the other hand: I had to learn my craft too.
Made some costly mistakes, most outof haste. Cut five times and still too short...
Hope you can get this settled.Mathias
Hi Velcro,
They have all claimed to be professionls but have more than proven themselves to be HACKS.
Luckily for me I was able to find a good contractor to redo all the work that was done by the companies "professionals".
Now I have to wait until Tuesday to see where I go from here. Will they be reasonable? They have all ready given me a number of reasons why the floor is squeaking. "smoke and mirrors" if you ask me. Throw everything at me but the kitchen sink.
Now if I'm not mistaken humidity isn't the issue here since the floor was squeaking the moment he laid it down. That's why I don't understand why the man continued to lay the floor without alerting me first. If there was a bow he should have taken care of that problem before installing the flooring. My goodness. After all it's up to him the installer to check for moisture levels and bows before installing.
The foam acts as a vapour barrier does it not? so moisture from the basement cannot come up through the subflooring into the new flooring. The only source of moisture is from the room itself. So why is this "jackass" going to take his moisture meter and hygrometer up on Tuesday to test the subflooring. He wants to convince me that a dehumidifier wiill rectify the situation. This is the same person (manager/owner) who told me that an Expansion Gap wasn't necessary. The man must think I'm an idiot.
I'll let the man do what he has to do. However, I am standing my ground due my previous experience with workmen. I permitted the company to try and redo a ceiling 4X and where did that get me. Let them argue the floor wasn't installed incorrectly. I have the installation guide to back up my arguement.
I paid them to lay a floor now I want them to do what they were paid to do. I want it laid to my satisfaction.
Wanda
Based on: >> We lay tons of engineered hardwood flooring. << I have a few Qs for you: If it is a floating floor it would seem that a gap would only be required on 2 perpendicular sides? Just a thought...
Secondly, is engineered flooring very popular in Europe? Here, it is considered somewhat of an inferior product, but necessary for hardwood over concrete or for wide board installations.
BTW - I was talking to my flooring supplier the other day and he said they no longer sell floating floors because of warranty issues. This is a rather large flooring company who sells nearly all types of floor covering.
122948.13 in reply to 122948.9
>>If it is a floating floor it would seem that a gap would only be required on 2 perpendicular sides? Just a thought...<<Well, the manufacturers demand a 1/2" gap around all sides, for full warranty. Engineered floors come in three layers (floating) or two layers (to be glued down). One layer of mostly softer wood runs 90 degrees perpendicular. So lateral expansion would be possible in all directions theoretically.>>Secondly, is engineered flooring very popular in Europe? Here, it is considered somewhat of an inferior product, but necessary for hardwood over concrete or for wide board installations.<<Yes, very popular, it has taken 20 years. Now they rule. We don´t nail a lot in Europe. Framing is different in the dimensions of the joists. We have thick floor joists (5x8" typical) on 32" centers. You need long boards to hit centers, lots of waste. So we have adopted the american subfloor method with OSB sheathing, two layers, 22 plus 15 mm. Now we can screw down solid wood, or engineered wood.
I don´t like floating installation because of the queer walking feel. Too soft, I like a solid feeling. But if sound proofing is an issue...We don´t glue laminated flooring in the T&G- rather the manufacturers compete with "click"-install. No glue. It has the charm that if you change houses you can pick up the floor and move. >>BTW - I was talking to my flooring supplier the other day and he said they no longer sell floating floors because of warranty issues. This is a rather large flooring company who sells nearly all types of floor covering.<<If you had two or three snags like Wandas you just drop it out of the portfolio. They have to carry it here- too popular.If done right- no problem.
BTW: Buy the most expensive underlayer-foam- it pays. Like Kährs from Sweden.
Check humidity levels subfloor, rooms and write them down, with date.
Do not be pressured to put in a floor if parameters are not just right. It´ll blow for sure.
Hand out care instructions (I had them translated into polish, turkish, spanish...because the cleaning personell changes a lot).
Track your customers, 1/2 yearly-yearly. "Everything alright???"My two cents,Mathias
I'm also guessing there might be some "adjusting" of the >> 5x8" typical << floor joists with a power plane, etc, to get a flat floor.
>> Now we can screw down solid wood, or engineered wood. << are you hiding the screws with plugs or what? Aren't the engineered wood floors prefinished?
It really fasinates me to see not only how other people "do it" but even more so how they do it in different countries where their building methods are totally different. I am of the impression that in europe they really do it right, but also that the average person can't afford a single family home.
Hi Matt,
We screw into the tongue, at a ca. 35 degree angle with special screws (small head, TORX-drive, part shaft) so, no see-um. I have plugged floors where you need lots of hold, like a teak-deck, with SP-Epoxy. To get a level floor with curvy joists, we screw 2x6" boards to the side, string and/or Laserlevel and done. Wouldn´t have time for planing in situ.
In Europe there are lot´s of countries, I have worked all over the place - and would say the best craftsmen live in Switzerland, the german speaking part. Good prices, good pay.
German craftsmanship is overrated, meaning because you are german you do good work is a fairy-tale.
We have our share of witless people at the sites.
Anyway there is good and bad everywhere.
10% top
30% get along
50% so-so
10% just a job
Hiya, Wanda-Been reading this with much interest, since I have installed the subject matter, Kahrs in my case.In your original post I thought you stated that the flooring seller stated that he didn't think that the gapping was the source of the squeaking (???). Anyway, that doesn't negate the fact that gapping was required in the installation guide as you read it. I have never heard of a floating floor installation that does not. As someone else pointed out, nailed engineered floor will not necessarily require a gap, although the installation will go go quicker without trying to make the perimeter 'tight'. At any rate, it would seem that squeaks are caused by movement of some kind. On subfloor it is typically from the subfloor material riding up and down on nails. So, the question in your case is- where is the movement? I guess we can rule out the subfloor since you said that you checked it for squeaks. That leaves the flooring itself, which must be adjacent pieces rubbing up against each other.I can only guess that the cause is either over-spanned joists causing some deflection, or a 'dip' in the subfloor causing adjacent pieces to rub against one another.Good luck and we'll be interested in the outcome of this next week. Hope the end is happily near for your remodeling woes.The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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Hi Guys,
One thing I forgot to mention. The walls of my bungalow have 3/4 " thick knotty pine panels.Looks like a Swiss Chalet! Not your typical bungalow livingroom with drywall and paint. So an expansion gap would be essential. So now you can't just nibble away some of the drywall to make an expansion gap like some people have suggested as a fix it.
I am not so sure the flooring was even installed the right way. I know some of the boards in the package were curved (bowed.. convex and concave. interesting that it mentions how to properly install these convex/concave pieces of flooring. Maybe the guy didn't tap the boards in place properly. After all he didn't bother reading the instructions and he was in a hurry to get this job done. It sure took him enough time to lay the flooring.
Wanda
I will tell you that if I was going to do a floating floor, I would buy the ones that lock together like the laminates do. I have done it the way you had it done ahd it is a slow process compared to the locking ones.
I did my room 18x20, with angle bay, in about 2 hours. I didn't do the shoe molding that day, because my wifes new baby grand showed up, in fact that was 8 mths ago, I think that she is still waiting>G<
Hi Framer 52,
This engineered hardwood flooring by Award Flooring fits together like caribou pine panel that you see on walls. A thin tongue of plywood which slips into a groove. Can't imagine it's all that easy to install.
Wanda
Edited 8/2/2009 6:12 pm by Wanda200
Especially when you add glue to the mix!
Hi framer,
Here are some pictures I just downloaded of the flooring after installation. Those boards are TIGHT to the wall. NO Gap whatsoever. not even a 1/8". Take a look at the thin tongue on the board. It's only 1/2" thick plywood flooring with thin layer of veneered hardwood.
Wanda
Edited 8/2/2009 7:04 pm by Wanda200
Hi,
here are a few more pictures of the intalled flooring.
wanda
After looking at the pics, I have determined that I could have those relief cuts done in about an hour for that room.
I like the look of the flooring, not sure if I like it next to the pine walls.
In the pic "Milano copper red..." wow , the installer must have been blind to not see he installed a darker board in that part of the floor."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hi guys,
One last ? regarding the installation of this engineered flooring. I noticed today when I went up to check on things that the starting strip isn't nailed down. I also noticed that the end of the boards are tight against the wall but the way he has 2 or 3 cut.. little shy of the wall.. you can see the tongue. Now I don't think the tongue of any boards should be fitted against the wall. Correct me if I'm wrong here. One board was installed tight against the wall and the board adjacent to it had the tongue tight to the wall. I always thought the last board in a row was usually cut straight.. therefore there is no tongue to butt up against the wall. It's the Short Grooved side that is against the wall.
wanda
I think we are in agreement, the installation is bad.
Would love to hear your conversation with them!>G<
Hi,
here are a few pictures I took today.
As you can see from the pictures, you can't get a floor to fit much tighter... I doubt I'd be able to fit my smallest feeler gauge between the wall and flooring.
wanda
Edited 8/3/2009 7:55 pm by Wanda200
From the looks of the doorway pic. I'd say it swelled ( humidity) and it wasn't clamped and weighted as the glue was used. And there should be clearance all around. About 8mm should be adequate in most cases.
Probably.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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FL24 - was he going to install a transition strip to hide the cut ends?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Oh yes, he was going to put down a transition piece. but everything is on hold now because of Tuesday's meeting. At least the guy managed to install the vinly flooring in the 3 bedrooms, kitchen and porch.
Actually I have a ? concerning vinyl flooring should you have a seam where the vinyl in the main room meets the closet? or can you avoid the seam with a carefully planned installation. He has yet to fit /install the vinyl in the master bedroom closet.
I'd like to know how many engineered hardwood floors this guy has installed. Maybe mine was the first!!! I couldn't have F..! it up any worse had I done it myself. A DIY/ weekend warrior couldn't have done a worse job.
I'm sure I'll have more to report tomorrow when I meet with the manager/ owner of the flooring company.. But I have no idea why I'm wasting my time considering this is the same man that told me to my face that an Expansion Gap wasn't necessary. So what good is his hygrometer and moisture meter going to do him???????? LOL
What is he going to say when I tell him I want the entire flooring taken up and taken out of my bungalow.
Wanda
If the room is more than 12'x12' you will have a seam somewhere. A seam in a doorway would be pretty easy to hide, better there than the middle of a room."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
what kind of base moulding is going in that room?? also why wern't the pine wall boards left "short" for the flooring to have relief under them?
Possible the flooring guy thought it "needed" to be tight to help complete the room? should have bben floated under those door jambs. meaning under them, not tight against. any chance of you catching more flies with sugar tomorrow and strongly suggesting the relief cuts as a start? Be willing to work with them for a solution, rather than being confrontational from the moment he arrives, but with the understanding that your both working towards a squeek free floor.
also, do you have access under this flooring. If so, you could probably easily see any nails shining through the sub-floor???
Edited 8/4/2009 4:21 am ET by deskguy
Hello,
The Plot thickens! I went up to check on things today and discovered a few interesting things. I borrowed a moisture meter from my local Home Hardware store. (They don't sell them but they loan them out )
Here's what I discovered:
1. The plywood subfloor in the hallway is just fine. Why did the manager tell me he got a reading of 16% on some sections of the subflooring in the hallway?????? I discovered that The engineered hardwood flooring in the opened and unopened boxes were full of MOISTURE. I stuck the probe an 1/8" (as instructed on the back of the moisture meter) into the tongue of each board. I got a reading of of over 17% / 20% on almost all the boards in the box.
2. So it is the flooring and not the subflooring that is the source of the moisture problem. Although the manager is trying to tell me it's my subflooring that's responsible.
3. When I inspected the flooring in the hall (not all of the pieces have been laid. The job isn't completed yet. ONly 1/2 of the flooring in the hallway has been laid. I noticed the following: The floor has been NAILED down. Hard to see at first but when I bent down for a closer inspection I noticed tiny indentations and sure enough they were spaced approx. 8" apart. You can just see the tops of the nails. Wow! There was no evidence of ashphalt paper or Foam underlay beneath the flooring. It is tight to the floor. So I have to assume the guy didn't bother to lay foam in the hallway. I do know for a fact he did use in in the livingroom .. at least on 1/3rd of the flooring. I wasn't there to see the entire flooring laid down.
Looks like I got the "combo" installation. We all know a float -in installation frequired a foam underlay but doesn't require nails. A nailed in installed floor would require ashphalt paper. (buiders paper) if done according to manufacturer's installation instructions.
Now what happens to a floor that is nailed down in some sections if not in all sections? If you nail through foam how does that effect the "floating floor". since it is supposed to move as a unit?
Had a good chat with an installer from another flooring company today. I described my situation to him. .. Told him the flooring was purchased on sale in late March. He told me that flooring was discontinued.. well I all ready knew that... said it could have been sitting in their warehouse for 3 yrs. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm!
Wanda
If you had a hard time seeing the nails, how big were they? 18 ga brads?
If you nail through foam how does that effect the "floating floor". If you nail it, it no longer floats. Sounds like you need to get the boss on site before the installer goes any further and covers up the evidence."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hello FastEddie,
The MANAGER/OWNER was oniste. He is standing behind his installer.
He TOLD me he'd be up in a weeks time to check the moisture levels again.
I went into a few flooring stores today with my questions concerning engineered flooring plus an unoopened box of flooring . After 15 phone calls to various building stores and flooring places I managed to track down a man with a moisture meter that was willing to measure the moisture levels in the wood for me. I wanted to be sure. The moisture meter I borrowed from home hardware was giving the same readings as his Delmhorst moisture meter was.
Not only do I have an improperly installed floor but I have an Owner/manager of a flooring company that is STICKING by his installer and who insists it's the subfloor that is causing the moisture problem. He's not going to replace it either until he is 100% sure he can't remedy the problem.. Last thing he wants to do is rip up the floor. He assures me a dehumidifier will do the trick. The man is telling me an expansion gap is't necessary.. and I have to listen to this idiot!!!!! All he's doing is covering up a messed up installation job. What's he going to do to me when I tell him the flooring in the hallway is nailed down and that there is no foam underaly or any other type of underlay beneath it. The installer has all ready told me he doesn't use ashphalt paper because it costs the customer more money. OMG! what kind of logic is that. What happens if he hasn't taped the seams of the foam underaly in the livingroom. Not sure how important that is but it says to do so in the installation guide.
When I went up to install the dehumidifier today it was reading 73% relative humidity. So I will monitor the RH and see what happens. Before I hooked up the dehumidifier I noticed that a part of the flooring next to the fireplace was buckling (lifting). No big surprise since there is no expansion gap. It wasn't buckling yesterday!
The man at one of the flooring stores couldn't understand and can't explain why the readings are all over the place. 8% on one section 18% on another. God only knows what conditions this flooring was stored and for how long. It's his material that is the source of the moisture problem. But we can debate that till the cows come home.
My god! treating a customer this way and blatently disregarding the installation instructions. We all know the manufacturer declines responsibility for job failure resulting from inappropriate or improperly prepared subfloors, job site environment deficiencies . So where does that leave me the customer???????? The company webpage assures the customer that they have EXPERT/Professional Installers. It goes on to say.. Here are 7 reasons to choose us. What BS!
Who is accountable? The customer who put their trust in the company/ the installer who was hired by the company/ or the Manager/owner of the independently owned store (locally owned) . The company hired this man to install a floor and he didn't install it correctly. The manager refuses to admit the man didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions.. He refuses to take any responsibility for a shoddy flooring install. He's not going to take his guy to task for this. He hired the guy he's repsonsible as far as I'm concerned. These guys seem to have me by the "balls".
Wanda
Wanda
Edited 8/6/2009 6:51 pm by Wanda200
I skimmed through quite a bit of this but a few things are obvious. Floating floors can grow (expand) given the right conditions. There's no way this can be improved without cutting the floor back around the perimeter. It can't remain "locked in" the way it is by the looks of some of the photos. A good tool would be a toe kick saw.
Incidentally, moisture meters work well but has anyone made calibrations with the material that is actually being tested? By pushing the pins in below the wear layer you're testing a different material and not the hardwood veneer. I wonder what Award says it is?
Actually I don't see subfloor/material moisture as being a contributing factor...yet...it could add to problems later. The symptons don't occur immediately like what has been mentioned. But are the readings accurate? Plywood or whatever is down will read different. The calibration has to be brought into the picture.
And part of it was nailed? OMG...I'll have to read through the whole thread later. Anyway good luck.
Hi Hardwood guy,
Now I'm a little confused. I need you to explain this calibration thing to me..I stuck the probes 1/8" into the veneer layer and down 1/8" through the top of the tongue on each board. Testing various areas down the length. I flipped it over and stuck the probes in through the back just to see. Then I had the man from the flooring company use his meter to check the moisture levels.
Are you saying the dehumidifier isn't going to take care of the problem? If so, then I should be on the phone to the manager. I'd like to get my furniture moved back in so I can get on with living in the place.
My baseboards need to be installed and that's on hold now till this flooring business gets resolved. I bet when he comes up next Wed. He's going to put me off for another week. And then he'll come back 3 weeks from now and tell me he's decided to cut away the flooring near the walls so the wood has room to expand.
I'd like him to him to haul that flooring up right now. Save both of us a lot of aggravation and time. I shouldn't feel I'm at war with this guy.
WAnda
Wanda, All that needs to be done is to have the 1/2" gap cut around the perimeter of the room. Until that is done everything else is just wasted talk and wasted time.Once that is done we can move on to other things. But you'll get no remedy...zero...until you get that expansion gap which in turn will let the floor relax a bit.I'd call the flooring manufacturer's tech department. Focus on the gap, because that is real and it's evident. Everything else is what the moisture meter said today versus what the moisture meter said tomorrow.And everything - EVERYTHING - wrong, and everything right with this floor falls directly on the installer. He installed it. He accepted the conditions of the subfloor. He accepted the condition of the flooring and the installation instructions to install it. He accepted the environmental conditions of the work space. Right now it's not about the moisture. It's about the gap.
Hi Mongo,
Unfortunately for me the installer was employed by the company. and the installer isn't going to fix what's wrong with the floor. The company is insisting that the floor is fine. He's standing behidn the install. The company doesn't want to help me out here. Although they say they do.
Wanda
Hello again,
So what do you think is responsible for the "crackles", that's the best way I can describe the sound of the floor when you walk over it. Everywhere you walk.. every sq inch of that flooring... Did he glue the grooves incorrectly. Did he use the wrong kind of glue/ not enogh glue?
What would cause a floor to sound like that? Right after it was laid it was making that sound.
sounds to me like the tongues fo the adjacent boards are rubbing off each other when you walk over them.
OMG! Who would be so stupid as to not allow for an expansion gap. Why didnt he use shims around the perimeter. Where are this guys references. I trusted the company. Now I find out from that fat bastard that it's up to me to find that information out. Oh my! He's impossible to reason with.
Wanda
As I said earlier, ten to one it wasn't clamped. That would make it crackle.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Sphere may very well be right. A non-interlocking glued floating floor needs to be clamped on installation. Are there any gaps showing at the seams?The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
The Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum Tavern
HI,
Nope, no gaps showing. The seams look perfectly normal.
Wanda
What kind of glue did he use? I'm not sure if this was covered, but if regular yellow carpenters glue was used, then I think that would surely cause alot of snaps crackles and pops.
In Hamburg, Germany, this would be the course:
Get an inspector, he will assess the wrongs- take pictures and write a report. You´ll have to pay him. Do everything in writing.
Set a date for the work to be finished (2-3 weeks would be acceptable). If the installer/seller does not react have the work done by beforementioned other installer at presaid cost.
Go to court.This is academic though.
If the installer is just a small guy he will get the bill, and maybe he´s a deadbeat.
That leaves you with costs for court, lawyer, inspector and...
still no new floor.
Damages can only be collected from people that stand to their responsibility and have the money.
Better business bureau maybe?I don´t know how it works in the U.S.?I wonder why the eexpansion gap has´nt been cut already?
I´d do it for 3h´s pay, if I´d live in the area.Mathias
I agree, first thing to do now is get an independent inspector to examine and document. A licensed home inspector would probably be sufficient."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
OK - so we know who NOT to get sub referals from. :-)
Still wanna be a GC? :-)
A relationship with a craftsman relies on trust, just like any other professional relation.
You had doubts about the validity of the installers findings and it
seems the man is lying.
Qui bono? Does he want to keep his job, livelyhood? Probably. It would be better to tear everything out and redo the job.
If I did that (what he did) I´d surely would have to do that, coerced by my GC - and no more jobs in the future.The customer should not have to run around borrowing moisture meters.This looks like a story where lawyers come in...I hope not - bad money thrown after good money.
These things are always settled like 60/40 - 50/50 with lawyers and the courts being paid the difference.
No one wins - still the same floor.
A product on sale would have to have the same characteristic specs that any floor should have. You measure subfloor, and floor. I take the Delmhorst Moisture meter with isolated pins (fine american product).If you nail a floating install, even one nail will perform as a sound bridge.
Seasonal movement occurs, but less than in solid floors. Expansion should become less when drying. So maybe you are saf(er) just waiting. Do you have moisture sources, do you live in an area with a lot of natural moisture?No way anyone can install engineered wood that moist. No nails, expansion gap needed.
This is your right!
But to get it...Mathias
Now I don't think the tongue of any boards should be fitted against the wall.
Considering what else the installer did, I suspect that he was able to fit a full width board in the last space, so he didn't bother to trim off the tongue. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
did you see them install the last pieces? Seeing how tight it is to the wall I wouldnt be surprised if they used a bit of force to push down the last pieces or a few near the ends. That could make a bubble in areas wherever they did so.
Personally, I dont think the gap is a huge isse provided the pieces are not forced into place and the subfloor is at a reasonable moisture content at the time of install. The benefit of an engineered flooring material is that it is applied to a stable substrate (plywood in your case). The wear layer is typically 5mm and that normally will not cause significant expansion/contraction.
Good luck. It seems the installer should find a new line of work or learn how to read.
Brad
Hi Brad,
The man wants to totally ignore the Expansion gap issue. He's blaming it on the moisture content of the subflooring. Hell, he thinks there's a 1/4" gap. There is no 1/4" gap around the perimeter of the room. You can see that from the pictures I posted.
Not sure what brand of moisture meter he used. Some are more accurate than others.
He told me the flooring was (8%) the subflooring (16%) The pine panel on the walls and the casings around the door openings are around 8%.
He assures me if I run a dehumidifier for a week the crackles in the floor will disappear.
"the subflooring obsorbs moisture like a sponge"... The flooring was laid last Thursday. The guy installing it said it was squeaking after he had about 1/3 of it laid but continued to install the flooring.
If they read the instructions they should have carried out their moisture meter test before installing the floor. Then he blamed me and said, " I wanted the floor laid asap... so what was he to do"
Basically he ignored my questions and concerns. He didn't want to budge. Moisture is the cause of the problem. Arrogant SOB!
So I have to allow his installer to come in and finish installing the rest of the floor. I bet this guy will hassle me if I ask for a different installer. I guess I will have to be there on the premises before he installs the rest of the flooring in the hallway.
How much moisture can seep up through the basement and up through the subflooring and through the foam barrier. So much so that's it's causing crackling.
Our contractor purchased the plywood subflooring from a lumberyard warehouse. How much moisture can plywood obsorb? The new subflooring we had laid about a month and 1/2 ago was well screwed down and tested for squeaks.
Wanda
Wanda
Wanda:
Re moisture of a subfloor 16% sounds pretty high to me. OTOH I have no idea if it would cause a engineered prefinished HW floor to squeak.
Although this is a totally different situation attached is a few pics from several years ago. A defective toilet had an internal crack and slowly leaked water under the tile backer which found it's way across the subfloor and messed up the not yet finished hardwood royally. The hardwood guys removed the bad area and took moisture readings. There were around 18 - 20%. They said they would not re-install until it was all below 10% and they really wanted 8%. The magic marker numbers on the subfloor are the readings. I think it took a week with the fan on some of the time to get it all down to 8%.
And BTW - I'm not saying that there doesn't need to be a perimeter gap. I thought that was wood floor covering 101...
PS - I wonder what the perm rating of the foam underlayment is? In other words is it meant to be a vapor barrier?
At what point did he mention the subfloor was 16%? That is very high from what you have described, but if it is true, then I woulndt dispute all of his claims. The Mirage flooring spec states the maximum subfloor moisture should be 12% for an engineered floor. He should have stopped and made you aware of the risk regardless if you were pushing to get it done.
I wouldnt focus too much on the expansion gap. It is an error since that is the spec, but I believe that spec is largely a fall out from the solid hardwood flooring spec where that is far more crucial. In essence wood will not expand/contract about its length. A sheet of plywood, such as the substrate of your flooring, benefits from this by altering the orientation of the plies within the sheet by 90deg. The wear layer is usually thin enough that it will not adversly affect the performance of the flooring with seasonal humidity changes. Take some scraps, mist the underside with water and test it out. Thats one way to see for yourself.
Now I am not certain, but I dont think the foam will act as a moisture barrier. By all means test that out too. Take a scrap and try to soak it. If it absorbs moisture like a sponge, then he may not be far off the mark.
If the subfloor was at 16% and foam barrier will absorb water, I would suspect the pieces have bowed upwards at their edges ever so slightly as the flooring substrate tries to expand. This bowing would not be uniform as I doubt the subfloor moisture content is uniform. The subfloor and flooring are trying to reach an equilibrium moisture content. A very small amount of bow will cause creaks. It would be difficult to measure given the flooring is distressed, but you might want to try comparing a few boards that have been installed to a few new pieces.
Brad
Did you see any clamps ( strap like things that pull the floor together) while it was being laid? without the strap clamps the glue joints may well be not making adequate adhesion and the T&G joints can creak when walked on.
Its sounds as if that may be an issue, because the ends of the straps need a gap at the wall to anchor the pulling force to squeeze the flooring tight.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Duane, you may have hit the squeaking on the head. Didn't even think about that!!!!
If that stuff ain't clamped, it a hellish. They also have an adjustable bar clamp, but no matter what, ya need room at the wall to hold the fixed end.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I have used the fully adhered and the lock and fold, never did the glue in the slot type before. I bet you are onto something there.
He may not have needed clamps, looks like it's so tight it puckered up:
http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
As tight as that is laid I wonder how he even got the last row in..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Another thing I was wondering is how are European HOs are about maintaining their homes. Here in the states it seems that few people really maintain things themselves and as often as not won't pay someone to do it. Who wants to do boring stuff like repaint the exterior when you can spend the money on something important like new granite countertops.
I mean who cares if the house is built to last 400 years with 5x8 joists sistered up with 2x6s and 1.5" subfloor if no one bothers to maintain the caulk and grout in the tubs or showers. A rotten floor is a rotten floor.
Depends on the culture. Again, Europe has one currency now, but drastic cultural differences.
So, to speak for Germany:
HO are rather caring about their houses- they move much less, houses are inherited.
To own a house a german carpenter would have to be very busy, as the lots are so expensive.
Imagine 80 million people living in Montana!
Ground prices would fly.
You would have to expect to pay 600.000 $ for a regular home.
Better take care of the investment.An Idea: Home inspectors that look at the house every 2 years and point out details to be fixed/serviced.
As a scheduled service.
Should be inexpensive, getting paid by kickbacks, referrals.Mathias
Surely a typo (on 32" centers) Heh heh.Never seen anything like that in the UK.
mack.
Hi, what I meant was: 32" apart (the centers of the beams), as seen from above. What does my wording mean in english?GreetingsMathias
I believe you said it right 32" O.C. 32" on center. Our framing is usally 16" O.C. with 1 1/2" wide joists. I don't know what Scotland does or says.
I believe the term is "Separated by a common language"(LOL),my fault for not thinking it out properly,before putting pen to paper,so to speak.
mack.
PS Scotland usually does as it's told by it's larger neighbour
I do that myself. No problem. Dallas
Now that you picked a floating engineered floor be ready for possible soft spots once the squeak issue is resolved. Soft spots will likely settle down after a few months. Other than that I'm not sure what this thread is about. Sounds like you have the bases covered. What is to discuss? Guy said he'd come out to check it. What else? Just need to vent? That's OK. We all need that at times.
BTW - what was the end result with the DW ceiling? How does it look?
Hi Matt,
The ceiling in the end turned out very well.
Imagine having someone (manager of the company) tell you that the ceiling was fine.. and it turns out that the entire ceiling had to come down, trusses removed and put in the right place and then new strapping and drywall sheets installed. Anyways it loooks great! I'm pleased with the end result. What a battle I had but I did get what I paid for in the end.
I'm sure this mess will be resolved. But it has cost me more time. I am not able to use the premises. I've been waiting all summer and thought I'd be able to move back all the furniture by now.
Wanda
the entire ceiling had to come down, trusses removed and put in the right place
You seem to be a magnet for problems."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Sounds like a good town for a unemployed carpenter.
Hello,
Yup, I have a black cloud over me... Murphy's law .. It's hard to believe what I've been through with renovating this bungalow. Unbelievable.
Thought I had myself covered by hiring a reputable company...
wanda
Oh - so you got the initial contractor to fix every thing? Kudos (sp?) to you!!!
Hi Matt,
Yes, I managed to get the company to redo the work. On their dime. :) But I had to find the contractor.
So here we are.. almost finished.
Now I have a final "showdown" on Tuesday to look forward to. God knows what I'm in for.
Wanda
I'd quit taking them low bids.
I think Velcro is right. I also would add a 1/2" shoe molding nailed to baseboard
I used Kahrs engineered in summer of 03 and am totally satisfied. The first thing I noted in the instructions is DO NOT OPEN PACKAGES PRIOR TO INSTALLATION. i.e. do not let flooring acclimate
Nail nothing. Even Kahrs underpad has self adhesive edge to avoid nails or staples. Also the longest run without a break is 40' or less. I made breaks at two ends of main room where hallway doors would have thresholds years ago. Mine was over Advantex & perpendicular to I joists with radiant below.
HI,
I went into First Floors on Torbay Road today. Found out more info on the company we had install our floor. She knew right off who installed our flooring without me mentioning any names of course. The woman has been in the business for over 25 yrs. and is also an interior decorator. (The manager of the company who installed my flooring could sure learn a lessen in customer relations from this woman!)
She told me her installers are all certified and trained in Montreal so they are experts when it comes to laying engineered flooring. Engineered flooring is very STABLE. So he can go stick his prongs you know where when it comes to his moisture readings! That was just a smoke screeen. The man has shown his true colours. She says the problem is the lack of an EXPANSION GAP! Something I all ready knew. Every professional company I've spoken to would agree about the necessity for the gap except the man who installed my floor and the manager/owner ....
Apparently, the man has only been in business for 2 yrs. Purchased the company from the former owner Bob. So he's using that guy's reputation to his advantage. So when they advertise themselves as being 14 yrs in the business that's false. We have a man who is pretending to be a flooring expert. I've been had. Now I have to cut my losses. There will be no meeting next Wed. The company/manufacturer is off the hook. The company installed the flooring incorrectly. So the warranty doesn't protect the homeowner. In otherwards I'm completely F....!
The flooring has been in there warehouse for approx. 3 1/2 yrs. It's old inventory. It doesn't have the click and lock system.
Now you won't be able to find anyone to cut the expansion gap.. they don't want to fix up another installers #### up. We'll have to get our carpenter to do it. Just hope the man hasn't nailed down any section of the livingroom floor.. but I am almost certain he did. The nails will act as a bridge. You dont want that with a floating floor.
I really would like to string that fat cat up by his testicles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wendy
I think you could get some relief by contacting the manufacturer and having them put pressure on the seller. I would not give up so easy."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I wouldn't get too fast to fire him if you have a signed contract. There normally is some clause in there that tells you the procedures.
If you owe him money and pay someone else to come and cut the expansion gap and finish laying the floor, you still might be on the hook to pay him off, in full.
Just saying....
Jim, he is done!
Hi,
I just read an article online about engineered hardwood floors. I was looking up info on how to install a floating floor. Apparently you're better off with a float-in Installation rather than a glue down if your subfloor isn't perfectly level.
One thing that caught my attention.. It said, " If you hear "cracks" they are due to the glue acclimating. This usually disappears with foot traffic.
Is that true???????????? Ok, if that's true then I still have the lack of an expansion gap to deal with.
Moisture has nothing to do with my flooring problem. Although the manager of the company seems to think it is. "you live near a body of water". Now we all know that's ridiculous. That's why I chose engineered hardwood over solid hardware in the first place. It is STABLE and is recommended for rainy climates. We all know it can be laid below grade as well. So his argument doesn't hold water!
Now maybe the floor will be just fine when I get an expansion gap cut.
Wanda
That article may have been refering to the glue DOWN flooring. Yes, it can creak if not rolled like a vinyl floor.
But you have glue TOGETHER flooring the glue is on the T&G WHICH HAS TO BE CLAMPED before it dries.
Your floor ain't gonna get any bigger, so the gap issue is moot for the most part. When you add heat or aircond, the floor will stabilize and most likely get smaller, but not much.
Now with that said IF he had to FORCE the last run in, it WOULD force a bubble or rise, that would go down upon foot traffic and creak. If that is the case, you will need to cut it back from the wall. Period. Not A BIG DEAL.
If he didn't clamp the boards and they are not seated before the glue hardens then you have another issue, it MAY quit on its own , or it may not. At that point the wall cuts are not gonna help at all.
When the glue dries without the T&G fully engaged, you can have a raised section and once dry, that T&G will never seat properly and if at an angle ( upwards) it will have to break the glue bond OR the tongue to be a quiet floor. Period.
You need to have the floor manufacturer ride the installers boss and make it right. Or call the Mounties or whoever up there can witness you castrate someone and get ya off.
So now..are ya Wanda or Wendy?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Hi Sphere,
I can assure you the article was referring to the Float-in installation.
Wanda/Wendy? :) Einen Tippenfehler!
I wasn't able to get the man to tell me how his installer installed the flooring other than being told it was a floating floor.. which is evident by the foam underlay.
I have no idea now whether clamps were used. or if he used the right glue or if he applied the glue correctly. The installer wasn't at the last meeting. He had some other guy there as his "ear piece". who remained mute! One thing I can tell you.. and I have a picture of it which I should post... The flooring in the hallway was NAILED without any underlay. I will point that out to them when I meet them on Wed. But he'll probably storm out of the place. A totally unreasonable/ irrational man.
Wanda
well , if its nailed , you are screwed.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Hello,
Have a ? concerning your last post. If the seams appear tight. Can I assume he used clamps?
The last board he installed in the hallway was nailed down and there is no underlayment beneath it. That I do know. I can't be sure about the main room. I wasn't there to watch him install the entire floor. But If I'm not mistaken I'm sure I saw the 2 men with a dewalt compressor. I have a hunch he might have nailed down a section. He did say to his boss he was having a problem. But yet he went ahead with the installation.
They disregarded the manufacturers installation guide. I went over that with them. I stood my ground and said I believe it's an improper installation. The installer is responsible. He should have checked over the material and the environment (for moisture) He should have checked over the subflooring as well for any dips or improperly seated screws. He should have brought up his moisture meter then. Bit late after the floor has all ready been laid.
So the expansion gap won't make a difference if that flooring was installed incorrectly.
Perhaps the cracking sound might never go away if he didn't use the recommended glue. So if the floor does quiet down that probably means the tongues have been damaged.. OMG!
Woodworkers know what happens to an improperly glued panel The weak gluebond can break.
Wanda
You almost have to have a gap at the wall in order to use the strap clamps, it catches the first row laid.
Now slamming in the last row tightly can and will shift the whole floor over, I've done it myself mid way and had to use space blocks ( some are provided with some flooring, plastic 8mm spacers).
If he nailed in the field the floor couldn't have shifted ( it no longer floats) and closed that gap, so I'm tending to think no clamps were used.
Can't tell from pics whats going on, but what I can tell is that something is amiss, but it MAY not be a fatal flaw.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Hi Sphere,
I have a meeting arranged for tomorrow at 11:00am (wed). He has agreed to bring along his installer. Hope I'm not walking into a hornets nest. Phoned the Canadian Award Representative yesterday haven't heard back. He told me he'd phone the owner/manager and get back to me. No doubt he just wanted to get me off the phone.
He's likely to tell me the floor needs to settle for another week. In otherwards he is buying time putting me off. I"m not willing to sit around. There's a problem and it needs to be rectified immediately. Strange how I can't get anybody up to have a look at the flooring. I"ve phoned around and spoken with a few installers. They won't go up and check out the flooring for me. I"m in a real bind. So I'd like to know what most people do when they have a problem with their flooring.
Have a look at these pictures and tell me if this is how you'd install an engineered floor. There are 2 things that bother me about the installation of the hallway flooring. 1. nails were used to install the boards. #2. No underlay was used.
Wanda
I can't make out any nails, but yep, the foam should be there.And maybe you wanted it oriented that way, but I sure rather see it run the other direction in the hall, looks goofy to me.It's still gotta come up and have the manufacturer specified layer under it. And not be nailed.
One or the other it floats or don't not half and half.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Did you look at the last picture? It looks as if the flooring goes under the wall covering and there may be a gap there!
Saw that, but the other room with the paneling is tighter than a frogs butt..water tight.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I agree.
Very poor installation.
This lady seems to bring or find the worst contractors!
low bid
My thought too.
Hey Catfish,
I Hired a professional company.. 14 yrs experience in the business. I had them come in 4 yrs ago to lay flooring in the basement (vinyl elite flooring).
Not like I went out of my way to save money here by hiring a company I had no experience with.
It's absolutely shocking that no one in this province (NL) can build homes properly.
Wanda
HI,
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't drywall supposed to be 1/8" off the ground?
Why are those plinths so high the ones I installed in my basement are not off the floor that high. OMG!
Wanda
HI Sphere,
That flooring in the hall is unexceptable.. did you note the direction that floor is running.. yikes.
Wasn't my decision to run the flooring in the hallway that way. The installer decided that on his own.
wanda
The installer decided that on his own.
If what you said is correct, and you can document that, then you need to have him take it out at his expense and install the way you want it."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hi FastEddie,
Not sure if you've seen all the recent flooring pics I've posted..
Not sure if you can tell by the photos but take a close look.. on both walls the first boards are not in a "straight Line". Over by the fireplace where the flooring is beginning to lift (can't see that on the pic) the first board on that wall is not straight 98% of it is tight to the wall.
Usually when you install a floor you snap a chauk line and put in shims so you have some sort of a guideline to follow. Otherwise without the line and the shims by the time you work your way over to the opposite side of the room you're going to find out that your flooring is a little off. The last piece should be cut straight whatever space you have remaining the board is cut to that measurement minus the 1/2" for the expansion gap.
How the heck did this guy lay the floor?????????? What side of the room did he begin on? Usually you'd start on the longest straightest wall.
Wanda
I have read probably all of your stories. Just saying in this case that the boards look wrong run across the hall rather than the long direction, and if that's not what you want then you need to have it done properly. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hi FastEddie,
Yes, those boards don't look right at all.
What a day it has turned out to be. To make a long story short....
The manager was a no show. I was stood up! I had to phone him. I doubt very much he had any intention of calling me. You know what his excuse was.. he had 3 men out sick and he couldn't make it. The other guy (installer) who was supposed to come up for the meeting was also unavailable. He was in the hospital with his Mrs. (his words not mine).
You would not believe what I found out today while talking to this man (installer) on the phone. I'm actually shocked he answered nay of my questions considering how last Tuesday's meeting went.
The man nailed the floor in the main room down.. (sections of it). Started over by the fireplace and worked his way out to the opposite side. That would explain why the floor is bulging in the corner next to the fireplace. He wasn't able to nail those boards down. They were left to float. And without an expansion gap. The hallway was completely nailed down and without underlay.
The glue he used was LEPAGE'S WOOD GLUE!!!!! He told me that the manufacturer's glue was more expensive and their glue wasn't any better. Just a way for the manufacturer to make money. OMG! Now remember this guy claims he has 25 yrs experience laying floors (engineered hardwood floors and hardwood floors)
To recap... I have a what I call a COMBO INSTALL meaning the floor was nailed down in sections. Nailed down with foam underlay beneath it in the main room. The tongues and grooves were glued with LEPAGE'S WOOD GLUE> Some of the floor was left to float. How much I'm not exactly sure. So obviously he started in front of the fireplace.. nailed down the boards leaving no expansion gap. and worked his way back in to the wall. Then began installing the rest of the boards working away from the front of the fireplace over to the opposite wall. A totally F.. ! up installation. A DEFECTIVE installation. He netted the floor!!!!!!!!
It gets worse. I called the Canadian representative today and the manufacturer in Wisconsin and they were not able to help me. Said there was nothing they could do. I am now left to deal with this Prick on my own.
I have another meeting scheduled with the manager of the flooring company tomorrow. He's going to be bringing along his moisture meter. Which we all know is a "smoke screen". I can say for sure this con man is not going to replace my flooring. The floor is messed up and it's not like I have the money to replace it. He's playing hardball. He knows he's in the drivers seat. He has my money. Plus he all ready threatened me last Tuesday that I can take him to court. Said he wouldn't touch the floor till the moisture levels are right. But yet the SOB said he wouldn't levae me with a "crackly floor". Well I think we all know why the floor is crackling.
Taking this company to court is not a practical option. So I have no other choice but to have him finish installing the vinyl in the closet and the rest of the boards in the hall so he can put in the transition pieces so I can hang my doors and get on with living in the place. I will hav e to live with the crackling floor. I am going to cut my loses. The Sooner I get this man out of my life the better. Maybe I will be able to enjoy my place for the Labour Day Weekend. Might have my furniture moved back in by then. (right now it's sitting in a warehouse). It has been a long journey... Thank god it is finally coming to a close.
Have a look at these pics. I only noticed today how the last piece in the row was laid. Shocking!!!!!!
Wanda
they were not able to help me. Said there was nothing they could do.
Why?
Taking this company to court is not a practical option
I would sure be talking to a lawyer."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
While it might weaken your case somewhat by allowing them to finish you can always sue them latter.I don't know the details of your laws, but if you have a small claim court those are very informal proceedings and you don't need an attorney..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
This is a no brainer to win in small claim court. The only thing I would do would to maximize my chances of winning would be to read the fine print carefully (the contract fine print) and then follow the clauses for warranty claims carefully. When the contractor doesn't fufill his end of the bargain, it will be an easy case to win.
Hi sphere,
I was just reading an article online on how to install floating floor. An article written by Joseph Truin, This Old house Magazine.
He recommends for every 4-6 courses to use Blue Painters Tape to keep the joints tight while the glue cures.
I thought some sort of clamp was used for that. If so what type of clamp would you use.
Other than that it's a pretty good article. I found it helpful
Wanda
It's a ratchetting strap clamp, hooks on the first course and the last one laid to cinch them all inbetween tight. Sometimes a another type pushes off the unfinished wall end back to the laid floor, a pole type clamp with a lever.One or the other or both hold it clamped while the rest of that line is laid and then leap frog the clamps. Repeat after another few course are laid , before the glue sets up too much.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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HI,
Ok, I just googled rachet strap clamps. So now I have an idea of how they are used. How many would you have to use say on a large 16X25' room.
I bet most DIY just use a pry bar on the very last row (stick it between the shim and flooring strip and pull the last board into place) From what I've seen on UTube and other videos on the web (Lowe's ) They glue the groove and then use a tapping block and hammer to tap the boards together, But That wouldn't necessarily insure a tightly fitting tongue and groove joint would it? I bet as you continue to move the tapping block down the length of the board the other end is likely to come out a wee bit. The clamps would probably do a much better job. What's easier? Is it more time consuming to use clamps?
Even the instructions that came with the tongue and groove engineered hardwood flooring use what they call a Last Board Puller. I take it a pry bar could be substituted.
How many pros are out there using clamps.. Is that a common practice where you live?
wanda
First, I'm not a full time floor layer so whatever time and tools I use has no bearing on what someone who professes to be a flooring installer does or doesn't do. If it is a snap lock type floor the ones I have laid used no glue, just tap it ( smack it actually) or tilt and click it in place.I laid a Bruce floor that had no click it tongues, just a bottle of Bruce glue and INSTRUCTIONS to CLAMP it with available strap clamps, which were borrowed from the store's install crew for this and other jobs that they could not or did not want.These are glue together floors, not glue down, and not self locking.I'm not on jobs that are getting new flooring that often , but I'd say I see standard nailed T&G being most common here.Can't say as clamping adds that much to the install time, being as someone now has to do it over...I'd rather do it right once than half baked twice.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I will say I am not on a flooring crew, but have laid my share of engeneered floor. I have found very little of the glue together flooring lately. I prefer the glue down or click together my self!
I would think that the glue together has been replaced with the click together as the tech has made it very good!
+1. Glue together is more or less old tech. Most is now tap and lock.View Image
What percentage of the money do you still owe them? I'm guessing that you have already paid quite a bit for the material order...
Hi,
Too late now but I was sold old inventory. Nothing I can do about that. I paid in full. If I wanted to get the material on sale I had to pay for the install and the material up front. hmmmm I guess I should never had agreed to that no matter how much I liked the flooring. Won't make that mistake over again. I am much too trusting.
Yes, the tongue and groove glue together has been replaced with the click and lock system.
The main reason I went with engineered hardwood flooring in the first place was because the bungalow isn't heated during the coldest months of the winter. It's a summer residence. I usually shut off the water and close it down after December. Too expensive to heat all year round.
Real hardwood wasn't an option. I couldn't pay out all that money for a solid hardwood floor only to have it cup. Once the floor cups and it's not rectified immediately it will stay cupped. I found out yesterday that engineered flooring can also cup.. the top veneered layer of real hardwood can cup just like solid hardwood can. hmmmm Yet engineered flooring is laid down in bathroom, basements just about everywhere.. so claims the manufacturer and salemen.
A lot of the people I have been talking to i(n person and on the phone) are not fans of engineered flooring. They sell a lot more laminate flooring with the click and lock system.
No matter what the manufacturer wants to say I doubt you'd ever want to sand an engineered floor. My god the veneer is so THIN.. But they get around that by saying who would ever need to sand a engineered floor because it's so durable.
Basically I've paid a hell of a lot of money for plywood with a very THIN layer of veneer glued to it. I paid a premium for this flimsy looking "engineered hardwood floor. Looks good when it's down but to look at those boards in the box.. omg!
I should have done more research on engineered flooring. I should have had fiber flooring installed in the hallway and mainroom. Considering it's not my main residence. Carpet was out of the question because I have dogs and carpet only traps dirt/dust and odours.
Wanda
In the end this might come out 'OK'. Not optimal, but OK....
Things go wrong with projects. That is why I have a job - otherwise our admin could just schedule subs from the office.... My job is to see that I head problems off when they are about to go south but before they do. Things still happen though.
BTW - on the homes I build sometimes I get: "I can go to Lumber liquidators and buy some hardwood for $2/ft, and then a friend knows a friend who can come and install it for $2 a ft. Why should I pay you $7 ?" Recently I got that from one of our know-it-all real estate agents telling me that I should be able to build for $80 a ft. My response to him was "What is your warranty?".
With all your pics and instructions go to small claims court. You will win.Just don't appear to be going for the jugular, smile be polite.I will never lay engineered wood or laminate again. It is all junk.You could have put in a pine floor screwed and plugged yourself and saved a chunk of change.
I think you do have a better floor product than a click style laminate. My brother put down some laminate in his office one week ago, moved in some furniture and his wife has already noticed some scratches that cannot be fixed easily. Scratch through the wear layer on a laminate and nine times out of ten you will find MDF, whereas if you scratch yours, you will still see wood unless you go through the wear layer. You can sand that wear layer, not with a 5hp commercial wide belt like one would use to restore an antique floor with deep gouges, but one of the rental style sanders will work just fine. I routinely work with 1/42" veneers and you might be surprised how long it takes to sand through. With the vacuums on the sanding machines these days refinishing a floor is not that messy. Lots of work, but probably less than simply replacing if you still like the look.
I wouldnt second guess you initial decision. You wound up with a dingy installer and a less than honorable salesman. Getting any $$ back now maybe quite the excercise.
Brad
Even though I'm a kitchen installer, I do my fair share of flooring. I prefer solid nail down. I hate glue down, and I haven't seen glue together in about 6 years. Laminate is a different animal all together. Laminate is a great flooring, but has to be used correctly or you'll hate it. Anyhow, I think for a 16X25 room, assuming you are running long ways, I think you would be looking at five or six clamps. You could need none if you have good quality flooring and your firs row is laid straight as an arrow. But you could need more depending on the quality of the flooring and how carefully you start. Blue tape is usually al you need to keep the board together while everything dries, but check with the mfg. Some companies tell you not to put any type of adhesive on the finish and I've always taken that to include tape. The pole type of clamps are jacks for getting a tight fit when you are close to the end wall. The ratchet type are the common ones, but you need to hook them to a firmly anchored row or they can pull things out of whack. I only like to use them if absolutely necessary. They are completely unnecessary when nailing down or snapping together. There is absolutely no excuse to nail part of a floor and not the rest. Also, no excuse for underlayment under part of a floor and not the rest. Did he run out? And I had a feeling he was using wood glue. Wood Glue is great. Not great to glue flooring together with. It crackles as you know. Why are you letting them install the rest of the flooring? Research the installation prior so that you can babysit the installer.
I wondered the same thing: why are you letting them finish?
When I read that she intends to let them finish, I knew that any more conversation about this is useless.
I wouldn't let them in without a written plan on how they were going to tear everything out and then replace it with new. I'd insist on getting the new materials stocked so they could start acclimating before I'd let them do anything else. Without that, I'd simply start the legal process. I know I'd win as long as I carefully followed the written contractural conditions for making a warranty claim. I don't know that I would be able to collect but I do know that I wouldn't want any of those installers back in my house.
Yup. Having them finish could possibly constitute implied acceptance of what was already installed.View Image
I don't agree about the "implied acceptance". I don't think that would hurt her one iota in a court case. She's the consumer, they are the experts. If they don't install it expertly, she wins. I don't know if they are collectible, but she will win. The only way she loses is if the judge is cahoots with the installer. Fat chance.
She doesn't have to let them continue without them first explaining their plan to rectify all that is wrong. She has to give them the opportunity to make good before she shuts them out and hires a new crew or does it herself. That timeframe is spelled out in her contract or it is a debateable issue governed by state law and ultimately the judge. The time started ticking when she first complained and they don't have an unlimited time to respond properly. So far, they haven't and it's making her case much stronger.
I simply wouldn't let them continue installing anything without them first ripping everything out. I wouldn't let them start ripping everything out until the new stock was in the house acclimating. That is not an unreasonable position. They won't replace all the stock because they don't intend to honor their warranty.
Thanks, Jim, I agree with you.From all the facts as she has presented, she has the superior leg to stand on.View Image
I think the rest of the flooring is just vinyl now, but it's easy to screw that up as well.
I wondered the same thing: why are you letting them finish?
This entire discussion seems like trying to push a string up hill. I wonder if a: we're getting the full story; b: the OP isn't part of the problem.
How's life in Austin? "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I could solve all her problems with one fell swoop.Get Framer ( Joe C.) on her side in dealing with the lunkheads, man I'd pay to see that.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Hello guys,
Not sure how it works in the US but I'd be out big money if I decided to take this to court. Yes, I'm absolutely in the right but that doesn't guarantee me a victory in the end. This is Canada not the USA.
I am NOT allowing the installer back in to take up part of the flooring and cut an expansion gap. No way am allowing that man back in my premises to do any work . F..! I will put down the vinyl in the closet myself.
The owner/manager his saleswoman, and the man representing the flooring company came up to inspect the premises this morning. They came equipped with their trusty Delmhorst moisture readers. Went through the same 'routine. Discovered later that the reps moisture meter wasn't working due to a faulty battery. (he had a reading of 30% and then quickly said oh that can't be right and then borrowed the other guys meter and said I'm now getting 15 %. I wonder if these men even know how to calibrate a moisture meter. the better meters automatically calibrate themselves. LLater on during the inspection I asked him to check the flooring in the unopened box in the porch. I showed him the BOWED board and mentioned to him that the flooring was glued with carpenters glue and asked if that would cause the CRACKLING! he had no answer for me. I told him I had that flooring checked out by a flooring company and discovered the moisture readings in the flooring was all over the place. He had no explanation for that either. He advised me to get another dehumidifier for the upstairs. Kept saying it wasn't the product. According to him the flooring material is fine. He is blaming it all on the moisture problem in my bungalow. Agreeing with the flooring company that sold me the patina relics collection hardwood engineered flooring.
In my opinion the fault lies with the companies installer. We have a defective installation. Therefore the company should be held accountable. But in his opinion (their opinion) it is a MOISTURE problem in my bungalow responsible for the crackling. So we agree to disagree.
The owner/manager told me me today that his installer said I had moisture running down my wall. We all know that is absolute BS. What else will he come up with I wonder. The moisture issue is mute considering the floor was left without an expansion gap and it was nailed in sections and floated in others. But there is no reasoning with this Owner/manager. NEVER did his installer tell me there was a serious moisture problem and that he wouldn't be able to lay the floor. SMOKE and MIRRORS! Then he has the never to say he can only go by what his installer tells him. he wasn't up there when his man was installing the floor.
I had a very intersting chat with a manager of a leading flooring company today. I brought in an unopened box of flooring. I asked if the bowing would remain in the boards and if so how that would effect the installation. I explained to him my dilema.. How I had a hardwood engineered floor installed incorrectly. He says his brother installs this type of flooring and would never use the float in installation method. He would use a complete gluedown method. You don't NAIL a floating floor. This is exactly my problem The installer nailed down a portion of my floor and completely nailed down the hallway without underlay. (I've all ready mentioned that I believe) He coudn't figure out why the company wouldn't go out of their way to rectify the situation but he said there are people out there in the business like that.
Here's the fix according to the owner/manager... I'll send up the installer (same guy by the way) and have him cut out the area of flooring that he nailed down. (according to him that's a pretty easy fix) His guy should remember where he nailed the flooring. Gee, he's even agreeing now (2weeks later) to cutting an exp. gap. I will have my installer cut around parts of the perimeter for an expansion gap. If that doesn't work then I have done all I can for you. He is not certain that the crackles will go away. BUT he is NOT going to rip up the entire floor and install a new floor.
So that's where I stand as of today.
Wanda
FastEddie,
Would you like me to write you a complete thesis?????????
The company is repsonsible. The installer hired by the company failed to inspect the environment in which he was going to lay the floor.
If the moisture problem was such a major issue why didn't he come to me with his concerns. The installer excepted the condition of the subfloor, He accepted the condition of the flooroing and the installation instructions to install it.
I am not taking any responsiblity for this improperly installed floor.
wanda
"I'll send up the installer (same guy by the way) and have him cut out the area of flooring that he nailed down. "
I wonder how much this floor will close up when that happens? The pressure from net fitting the walls will probably relax the floating area...and chances are good some fancy table saw tailoring on at least one row may be needed to get the new boards into the area.
just a thought...don't panic.
"Gee, he's even agreeing now (2weeks later) to cutting an exp. gap..."
Ask where first.
Hi HardwoodGuy,
If you were the customer (me) would you except a fix it? Or would you be demanding nothing less than new flooring installed?
$6000 is a not chicken feed! I paid for a "professional" install and I didn't get what I paid for.
I am mad as hell after talking to those men today. They are not listening to my concerns and will not address the fact (admit ) that the flooring is not installed properly.
I know what I need.. an independent flooring inspector/installer that can give an unbiased opinion. But that doesn't seem to exist in this province. What do we have working out there in the trades. One Salesman I went to admitted that his installers do not have any special training they just learn from the other men in the business.
I need a man with balls that could stand up to those chauvanistic men.
Wanda
Edited 8/17/2009 8:45 pm by Wanda200
I need a man with balls that could stand up to those chauvanistic men.
Down here that man is called a judge."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hi All, Lotsa bellyachin' going on here! Is there another side to the story? If so , we won't hear it here. If you or I were the judge in this case we would hear the other side. That could make a difference. I'd at least like to mention that if I were installing a "damp" floor in a "damp" house, And that's the situation here, I'd tend not to leave much expansion space in a floating floor because when lived in the shrinkage would begin. Remember, this house is not being lived in. Secondly. when a house is empty and the floors are not being walked on, they "crackle" when you first walk on them. Just my 2 1/2 cents worth. Sceptic -er Mesic or Mesic the Skeptic
Hi,
I was on the phone to another flooring company this morning. The man told me it's unlikely the floor can be fixed. 99% chance it can't be fixed he said without damaging/contaminating the tongues.
They want to make it an environmental issue. When we all know it's a installation issue.
All floating floors need an expansion gap.
Wanda
The man told me it's unlikely the floor can be fixed. 99% chance it can't be fixed he said without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are several of us thinking the same. It's hard to tell you that you have been done in!
Hi Guys,
I know I've been screwed, and not in a nice way.
Wanda
We know and are trying to not make you feal worse!
I dont know about the judges you have encountered, but the ones I have bumped into are "lay persons" as far as construction is concerned in a small claims court. All the contractor/supplier have to do is sling a good story at the judge and she could wind up with little gained out of a process that could take up to a year or more if she is in a small community with a limited number of small claims dates. My brother went down this path and gained virtually nothing. If $6k includes the flooring material in her case I would be tempted to rip it all out and have someone else complete the install. I personally would not speak to the installer or supplier directly anymore. They dont seem to care, now its up to her to decide if she wants the headache of trying to make them pay.
Brad
Tell us a little about your brother's approach. Let us learn from his experience. Did he document everthing? Did he have pics? Did he demand, in writing, that the floor be repaired in accordance to manufacturer's requirements? Did he give the contractor the proper time to make good on the warranty request?
You just can't rip it all out and hire someone else to repair it without risking the ability to win the suit. There are steps that have to be taken to preserve the legal rights. The judge can always rule wrong, or right, but he also can always be appealed too.
His case was not related to construction (farm related) and it was one of those type of cases that largely boiled down to a he said she said case. The other guy basically lied, and didnt gain much for the time and effort.
I agree with you. If you have all the proper documentation, it is a very good route for her to take, but I am not convinced she has all the documentation she needs right now. If she decides to replace the complete floor and meticulously documents the install, she will definetly be able to make a good case, but with the info she has now, I see some grey areas.
Early in this thread Wanda alluded to the installers claim that she pressured him to finish and I am sure the installer will amp up that story if it went to court. Now I doubt that this would hold much weight, unless he has written documentation objecting to completing the install as requested. If this installer lacks any morals he may claim that he verbally objected to completing the install. More of that he said, she said ####.
There is no way for him to dispute the lack of expansion gaps, so maybe the judge places finds him at fault. I sure know I could figure out how to cut out a 1/2" gap around her floors with a Multimaster or some other tool and I bet he can too. Maybe the judge awards a few pennies to her for that one.
Now, as far as the fundamental install problems of using nails, glues, lack of clamps...., she will need an expert to prove her point. The installer will stand there and claim that he has installed many many floors exactly this way and they perform just fine. If she opts for an engineer to prepare an opinion for her, she could wind up another $1k+ out of pocket or more if she is in a remote location. Lets say the judge does agree the install was 100% wrong it is still possible that he may only find him at fault for the cost of his work and not the product. Another brother of mine installed some of that Good Year heat tube for his hydronic heating system and at the end of that 10yr+ class action suite, the plaintiffs were awarded the cost of the matieral. Yippee, a few hundred dollars for something that will cost tens of thousands to fix.
I dont know if Wanda shared this in this thread before, but in a knots thread she mentioned basement humidity readings up to 60%. I suspect that will brought up.
As far as going after the flooring manufacturer. They will hide behind the industry standards and unless she pays for her expert witness to research the methods, materials and products used to manufacture this flooring, she is likely simply wasting her valuable time and energy.
I am not trying to suggest skipping the court action. I am just sharing some of the potential pitfalls I see.
Wanda mentioned on the knots thread that the flooring cost around $6/sqft (CAN). I know some Mirage Engineered flooring goes for up to $12/sqft (CAN) and I got to thinking that maybe this engineered flooring came from China. I wonder if they use that wonderful chinese plywood as the substrate for their engineered flooring products? If so, I wonder if there is any delamination of the plies?
Brad
Hi Brad,
Here's the latest.. The retailer offered to send up his installer. (same guy by the way) to come up and take up the nailed down sections of flooring and cut an expansion gap around the perimeter of the room.
The installer told me he used glue. Guess again.. I discovered today when I went up with my carpenter to check on the flooring. The carpenter came up to finish off installing the baseboards in the bedrooms so I had him take a closer look at the 1/2 installed flooring in the hallway.
Wow! The bastard didn't use any glue and he NAILED down the ENTIRE Floor in the main room over foam underlayment. No wonder I was hearing all those "crackles". something that is never likely to go away without taking up the entire floor.
My contractor is going to take up the floor and nail it down over building paper. There is no other solution to this problem
I am not foolish enough to waste my time and energy taking this to court. I have taken plenty of pictures and video.
I wonder if the retailer/owner would change his mind if I presented him with those photos and video? Would he still stand there and say it's a MOISTURE PROBLEM.. probably would the lying SOB! This is CONSUMER FRAUD. I need to get on the openline radio show or maybe get an NTV reporter to come up and take a look. Sure would make a great story for Wendy Mesley on Market Place. My god! The flooring business is corrupt. This is criminal.. this man is going to get away with cheating me out of nearly $6000. And guess what.. He doesn't give a damn! I'd reallty like to go into his store and cause a scene. I'd like to take a nut cracker to his balls. Belligerent P... K!!!!!
Wanda
It sure is a shame when contractors hold themselves out as pro's, but they really do not have the skills to back it up. There is a contractor that builds in my area, and I would not let him build me a dog house. Its great to have access to guys like Sphere and a host of others that posted replies to your thread. Can you imagine trying to have figured this out without some of them?
If you have video's and pics I wouldnt let them get away with this. Small claims is meant for these type of situations and if you have all the documents you will have a good case. You have caught the installer in many lies, and those will be held against him in court. If nothing else it will make him think twice next time before trying these methods.
It seems you are most frustrated with the retailer, and I cannot see much of a case against them. They would just point at the installer. You could report them to the Better Business Bureau to make yourself feel just a bit better, but at the end of the day how many of us check the BBB before making a purchase?
Good luck with the rest of the project.
Brad
Printing this entire thread would help her possibly in a Small Claims..we have no vested interest either way, and I think are impartial. Some of us even gave the benefit of the doubt to the installer.
I sure as hell would persue it for my money back and more for the aggravation.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Hi Guys,
I'd like to say a Huge THANK YOU to all of you here at the forum who have taken the time to read my posts and respond to them. I'd be in a terrible way without your input. You guys are the best!
The renos are now coming to an end. Thank God! I can begin moving back my furniture very soon. Maybe I'll be sitting down eating turkey dinner come Thanksgiving weekend in my country bungalow. :)
The person I am most "frustrated" with is the retailer/owner/manager of the flooring store. I hate the very thought of him doing what he did to me to some other unsuspecting customer. That's what really bothers me. The owner/retailer promised me an expert installer... He hired the man to install my flooring. Told me there was no need to go out and look for an installer.. he would take care of that.
Anyways that's all water under the bridge now. I have to channel my energies elsewhere now. I have a litter of dachshund puppies to look forward to. They are due to arrive in 8 days. I will be very busy for the next little while looking after weiner pups.
Wanda
Life carries on...
Post pics of the pups.....
We like pics of puppies and cute kids here....
Got two mini's here but they are not considered real dogs by some here...Lefty-I will NOT make fun of the peer moderators, this week anyways....
The problem with many flooring retailers is they don't have the qualified people to handle hardwood flooring installations. Sure lot's claim to be, but their back ground is more in the carpet, tile, and vinyl trade. I've run into this numerous times but thought it may change with the big construction slowdown. It's actually become worse in my opinion. Lot's of general carpenters, you name it, are now calling themselves experts just to get work.
I wouldn't call them corrupt. It could be more on the line of..."get that contract/money and we'll worrry about problems later."
Hardwoodguy,
The sales rep from the large flooring company asked me if the entire floor had been nailed down. I have been corresponding via email with this man and have explained the difficulty I have been having with trying to find some resolution the situation I find myself in...
He doesn't seem to care that the retailer/ installer have lied to me. The installer told me he nailed a portion of the flooring and had used lepage's glue to boot. So the retailer said he'd have he guy up to take up the boards that were nailed. He would cut around the perimeter for an expansion gap. The retailer and installer said the floor was a floating floor. But now according to this company guy my floor was installed correctly.. This doesn't not make any sense whatsoever.
I told the sales Rep in Halifax that I had my contractor up to check out he flooring and he discovered that it was completely nailed down over the foam underlayment.
The sales rep emails me back and says" are you telling me the ENTIRE floor has been nailed down" I wrote back and said, "yes".
He sends another email and says "well then the flooring is a perfectly installed flooring." "only thing now is to allow for an expansion gap."
NO where in the installation instructions does it say to install the flooring over foam if you are nailing it down. If you look in the instructions you will see where it says NO you don't use foam if you're nailing the flooring down.
I spoke with the other independend retailer yesterday.. there are only 2 in the province. This person is also under the control of a major flooring company here in Canada I went to them for some advise. This person told me that they were not to get involved. Their boss told them To stay out of it. So their hands are tied they cannot help me. They are getting instuctions from the higher up management (sales rep. in Halifax). The company just wants this to quietly go away.
I have not heard back from any other Company employees or the president or CEO of this large Canadian Company. They are obviously going to let the Halifax representative handle this matter.
wanda
Now it's getting interesting.
For sure now, I'd want the judge to settle this.
I have never bought engeneered floring that was made to be nailed down.
I don't know much, but if I was some guy on the other end of the phone, I wouldn't be telling anyone that "it was laid perfectly". It's already been stated that there wasn't any gap, no foam in the hall, etc. Also, she contracted for a floating floor. How are they going to get this one to float if it's been nailed everywhere?
Edited 8/28/2009 9:56 am ET by jimAKAblue
I just installed some friday. Mohawk 5" handscraped oak. 7/16" thick engineered. Went down smooth and easy over the worst subfloor I've ever seen.
You need to call Mike Holmes from Holmes on Homes..then you'll be on TV and everything. Hell, this is almost movie script.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I think it ought to be on pay per view, shoot I would pay to see this resolved!>G<
Hi Guys,
Surprise, surprise.. the co owner of the flooring company just got back from his holiday. Apparently he's not in the store much during the summer months. The man phoned this afternoon while I was out. He's going to give me a new floor. Wants me to call the head company to let them know this matter is being taken care of.
No details have been worked out yet. I will be responsible for paying 1/2 the cost of installation. (not sure I agree with that) when I go in to talk to him in person I will have to ask him about that.
Apparently he got a call from one of the sales representatives (nost sure which sales rep.) this afternoon. I'm not sure who is repsonsible for this change in events. Perhaps all those telephone calls and e-mails have paid off.
I am not to deal with the other co-owner. I'll be dealing with him from now on. He said he's going to have to step on that guys toes.
hmm strange partnership if you ask me.
I will just have to wait and see what exactly they are going to do for me. What type of flooring.. tongue and groove/ click and lock.. He mentioned soemthing about a 3/4"oak prefinished flooring. But like I said the details have to be worked out.
So stay tuned guys..
Wanda..
PS.. Sphere, I would love to meet Holmes .. This would make for excellent reality tv..
I bet he is the one with the money!
Hope he lets' somone else install, or I would be tempted to tell him to drop off the new floor and I would install!
How kind of you to install for her, what a champ.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Did I say that???????
Nope, not unless there is a big lake with boat and fishing equipt. Shoot, where in Canada is this anyway??
You've already paid for a full installation. Don't pay a penny more. The only reason he's offering to do a full replacement is because he knows he'll lose in court. He's hoping to get what he can from you. I'd probably ask the same and hope you paid half.
I think that he is going to eat his cost on the new materials. The half of the install cost is his attempt to get her to pay the installers labor rate to the store, for what will hopefully be a different installer.
I think Spheres suggestion is not far off. This would be an ok 30min episode.
This is total #### you are stuck with. All the supplier/installer care about is not paying. They seem to have concluded that it is a moisture problem that is your problem and dont seem to care to help how to fix it.
How in the heck do they think that you can nail down a floor with a squishy layer between the boards and the subfloor? That will never work. Sure where you put a nail it will likely hold tight, but since the boards are not infinetly stiff, nails spaced at say 12" (doofuss installer) will not hold the boards tight so it squeaks as one piece binds with another due to traffic. A foam layer is fine with a floating floor since the whole floor is free to move when it flexes slightly due to traffic, but once you introduce nails, thats going to create a huge problem.
Brad
Hi Guys,
You asked for pics so here they are. The pups are now 5 days old. They were born Monday morning. A boy and a girl. Zelda and pups are doing exceptionally well.
Update: I went into the flooring store to talk to the one of the co-owers the other day.
I had a chance to speak to his BEST installer. He had the guy come over to the store while I was there so I could direct my flooring ?'s to him since he wasn't able to answer my ?'s. The man knows nothing about the product he is selling. He brought me into his warehouse and pointed out to me the flooring he was willing to install for me. Solid hardwood 3/4" 3 1/2" wide Gunsmoke. (made in china I believe).
Not sure how it came up in conversation but the man went on to me about how the problem with my flooring was due to Moisture. I told him I wasn't getting into that and just said, we agree to disagree! The man was extremely pushy. He wanted his installer to go up that very day with the flooring. Wanted to resolve this problem before his co-owner got back from Halifax. Said the co-owner didn't know anything about this. He was trying hard to convince me he was doing me this huge favour. I told him I wasn't going to make any decsion on the spot. Said it'd get back to him as soon as possible.
Here's the guys fix-it deal.. I pay 1/2 the cost of installation and I pay 1/2 the cost of ripping up the floor.
Make a long story short: His installer agreed to go up and check out the premises.. Guess what he discovered.. 1. NO MOISTURE problem 2. The floor was indeed installed incorrectly 3. he wouldn't advise installing a solid hardwood floor.
I came home and send off another e-mail to the Head company. Obviously the store owner received another call from this company because the very next day I got a call back from the co-owner. A conference call from him and one of the companies Sales rep. in Halifax. So here's what they are willing to do for me
1. they are going to take up the floor that is already laid down and re-install it. at no cost to me. Their BEST installer will do the installation.That is their idea of a fix-it solution.
I have been proven right on both accounts. Now I am being forced into excepting a REPAIR job. That is not a fair solution. It's been a month now. The guy from the store hasn't phoned back. NO doubt I will have to call him sometime today. I wonder what would happen if I told him I am not not at all satisified with that deal. Would they just tell me to go bugger off or would they give me a new floor. I'm afraid if I don't except this crappy deal I'll be left in the lurch.
Problem is this guy is an independent dealer and the main company can put pressure on him but they can't discipline him or tell him how to run his business. This large flooring company is a "buying company" (perhaps someone can explain that to me) Someone has to be held accountable. No customer should have to go through what I've been put through.
The 2 Sales reps and the 2 store owners are looking pretty darn stupid. Imagine the Sales representative telling the co-owner my problem was due to moisture and it was his recommedation that I buy a 2nd dehumidifier for upstairs. The sales rep from Halifax assured me the floor was perfectly installed. Now what do those 2 men have to say for themselves. Arrogant, Ignorant, pompous jerks!
I am 100% in the right but yet I am kind of forced into excepting their offer. Otherwise I might end up in court. I want this resolved asap. I'm paying to have my furniture stored and I want to get it moved out of storage as quickly as possbile.
Wanda
Those look a lot better than your floor!>G<
Sounds like you are getting it resolved. While it may not be the best resolution from your point of view. At least you have something without court involved.
Watch what you sign.
The buying company is probably purchasing stock by the container load and re-selling to their distributors. Co's such as this are not usually too concerned about the product or where it comes from. Price is king in their world. It is not uncommon for the background of such companies to be investment types that dont know much about construction.
If you want this resolved make sure you are there when the installer starts. It may be possible to remove/replace the existing flooring if the previous installer did not use a lot of nails, but if he did, I can only imagine how much damage they will do to the stock. If it looks bad, kick him off site and then you will have to go to plan B.
Any chance they will simply throw a bit of cash your way to end this relationship? I doubt the new installer is working for free and to complete this task carefully will definetly take him some time. It would end up costing you more in the end to have someone else come in with new stock, but it would be nice for you to go elsewhere for your peace of mind.
Cute pups.
I agree with the above post: watch to make sure the product coming up isn't damaged.
That might pose another problem: mixing batches. You probably have to let them attempt this style of repair/replacement but you do have the right to refuse them to install products that were damaged with nails, glue etc.
You also have the right to ask for monetary compensation for the storage fees. You might not get them but you should ask. At this point, you are making headway without lawyers. I'd suggest that you stay on this path. Be nice but be firm. It will be far easier and cheaper getting this done now that they are all aware of what the real problem is. They know it will be ugly and expensive if they go to court and you should take advantage of that fact when you are in your final negotiations here. You don't need to throw it in their face...they already understand that.
Ask for the repair scope and specifications in writing before they started. Get all your questions answered, in writing, before you let them back in. Also, read the fine print of your original contract and make sure you are complying. At this point, you seem to have the upper hand in the negotiating process. Use it wisely and don't do anything to compromise it.
Hi guys,
The installer will call tomorrow and will most likely begin hauling up the floor on Sunday. I'm getting the feelig he just wants to get in there and take care of this problem as soon as possible. He swears he is the best installer in St. Johnn's.
Before he begins the reinstallation I will have him take a moisture reading of the wood in the unopened packages plus any extra packages of wood he brings up with him. He can take out the boards and check them over for warpage.
There are approx. 6 nails per board. Hopefully there won't be too many damaged boards once they begin hauling them up. I really think they have no business repairing this floor. My god! I didn't pay for a repair. Why do they think that's it's perfectly ok to f..k up someone's floor and then go in and fix it. I have been waiting a month now. In the mean time I am not getting a discount. I paid top dollar for a perfectly installed floor. In fact they guarantee it.
They'd save a lot of money had they installed the floor correctly in the first place as promised. What is wrong with the trades in this province.
Don't believe half of what you read.
Wanda
Pups are really cute! They remind me of what is truly important in life.
Presumeably the installer will label the flooring as it is removed so it can be reinstalled with minimum wastage. I know I would (unless the boards are the same length as the room or so much is being destroyed that it is irrelevant).
I have had lots of success removing and reusing various materials. Patience and thought are usefull adjuncts to the process. These are not necessarily part of the skill set of all trades people. Cutting the fasteners is sometimes a good way to avoid damage to the material being salvaged. Your particular situation is something I have not encountered.
The other side of the equation is, of course, that it can be irritating to have a customer looking over your shoulder and micromanaging. In this case your scepticism should be understandable but.... . Gestures of good will ie coffee, cookies etc are appreciated.
Good luck.
I have a feeling that Wanda is not gonna be serving any coffee and cookies.View Image
I have to agree that Sisyphus is right on this one. While Wanda does have a right to be upset with the situation, the best thing to do is be nice and respectful when the installer comes out and hopefully remedies the problem. Take a deep breath, offer a cup of coffee and have a chat about the situation. Then let him work. Come back in an hour and ask if he'd like another cup of coffee. Take a look around. If things don't look right, ask nicely. Hopefully, this guy can make the floor right. After the floor is good, then call back the original contractor and hold his feet to the fire. He's the one who deserves it. If you get anything out of him, great. If not, and the floor is fixed, let it go. Life is too short to get caught up in things that aren't life and death. I know of a guy who had a heart attack from all the stress he was getting from a lawsuit he was involved in. Even though he eventually won, it wasn't worth it. I hope I didn't disrespect anyone with my opinion. I know these kind of situations can be frustrating.
Edited 9/5/2009 1:07 am ET by bk24
I agree serving coffee etc is not what anybody would expect under the circumstances. (And who knows what the new installer has heard about Wanda?) That is why I suggested it.
As bk24 says she has a new installer and has a chance to get a fresh start with someone who bears no liability for the previous problems and who is there to help.
Sorry, for SOME reason I was under the impression this was the original installer. My bad.Yes, a little hospitality would go a long way.View Image
Hi Guys
The installer hasn't phoned. No big surprise. No doubt he's waiting for me to call him. Last time I spoke with him on the phone he was going to call me back and set up a time. I said I was free to go up either Sat. or Sunday.
Strange for someone who seemed in a hurry to get on with things.
I'll just leave it for now and give him a call on Tuesday after the long weekend.
Wanda
Maybe he just didn't want to work on the weekend.
Hi,
He asked me if Sat or Sunday was ok. I was kind of surprised when he asked me that. I wasn't expecting him to work over the weekend.
wanda
Hi Guys,
The installer phoned today. Got his days of the week mixed up.thought today was Sunday.
He took up most of the flooring and stacked it against the wall. It's not damaged so he says he won't have too much of a problem reinstalling it. Said he's Pretty sure he has enough wood. Yet the guy didn't come up with a tape measure. We told him the guys at the store said it was approx.600sq.ft. area
Take a look at these pictures and tell me what you think. It appears the contractor that installed the subfloor over the origional subfloor has made a mess of things. So today I find out that the subfloor has been installed incorrectly. The installer can't reinstall the floor till this problem gets fixed. He said, if I were him he'd take the guy to court. He suggested I call the contractor and have him back up to look at the subfloor now that the plywood has been removed. (2 pieces of it) Something needs to be worked out. I've got to get some money back.
1 solution he came up with.. install 5/8" thick plywood over what's there. The plywood would make the subfloor more ridgid.That would take out most of the "Flex" in the subflooring. However, we would still be left with a few softspots once the flooring is reinstalled. This guy doesn't use shingles to level/ make flat a subfloor. There for roofs he said.
We did talk about removing the subflooring that was installed and using a levelling compound... the self-levelling type.. but he wasn't too sure it would adhere to the subfloor because of where the old carpet had been glued down origionally. So he suggested we might want to just leave what we have down and install another sheet of 5/8" plywood directly over it. But I'm not too sure if that's the best solution. What do you suggest I do??? HELP PLEASE
basically he has "FURRED the subfloor! and not the entire subfloor only in areas. OMG! the flex he must have the pieces of scrap wood 16" OC.
It's funny how people/ installers keep telling me it's not really their responsibility. They were told we had a contractor in and were told the subfloor was fine. First thing my contractor told me when he stepped over that newly laid flooring. " they're going to blame it on my subfloor" well after what I've seen they're right. I"ve been screwed over by my own contractor.
I need some Lessens/information on how to correct/ make Level(flat) a subfloor so the flooring can be installed. I've read on the internet that many workmen use ashphalt shingles .. but this installer says he wouldn't. Oh my! so many opinions. I need to speak with Holmes on homes. I'm hopeing you guys can advise me as to what to do here. Maybe it is as simple as just screwing down plywood sheathing over what's all ready down. or should I have the contractor take up what he installed and get someone else in there to do it right. What a mess.
Check out the pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wanda
Edited 9/7/2009 7:06 pm by Wanda200
Edited 9/8/2009 8:27 am by Wanda200
Hi,
I sent the post to me..by mistake. I should have typed in to: ALL
so check out the prior post 180
wanda
Wow. That just doesn't seem right to me. Why were they trying to 'furr' it up? Looks bouncy-bouncy to me. If I need to build up a subfloor in any way, I sure as hell am not going to be leaving voids such as that. WTF?View Image
hello,
Well,, I have a decision to make here. Yes, that floor has GIVE bouncy bouncy bouncy..
Everything to do with this revo has been messed up! What should I do.. I am not going to court.
The installer I had up there today said he wouldn't go to court. He says it's 50% homeowner and 50% flooring company.
So do I ask him to rip up the floor and ask for 100% of my money back
or do I do what the installer suggested and just screw down 5/8" plywood over it and then get on with laying the floor.
wanda
You don't ASK the installer to go to court. You go file and the court will ASK him for you. He doesn't show? You win! He shows? If everything is as disastrous as this thread is and you present the facts clearly, you win!
If everything is as disastrous as this thread is and you present the facts clearly, you win!
As fascinating as this thread is, and as improper as the installation seems to be, I've always had a hard time discerning "who did what when" reading Wanda's posts. In other words, I don't think she presents the facts clearly here.
Wanda, if you're reading this, a suggestion... Use BT as an opportunity to practice laying out the facts for someone who has no prior knowledge of your floor's saga. It should be concise, factual, relevant and unemotional.
So far, here's what I got: The previous floor installer used shims to level an out-of-level floor. On the face of it, it doesn't sound so bad. In fact, I've done it myself, sorta.
hello donCanDo,
You got it! "The CONTRACTOR not the previous floor installer used shims to level an out-of-level floor."
The installer came up yesterday to inspect the subfloor. A picture is worth a 1000 words.
Wanda
How thick are the plywood strips and the plywood sheets?
I don't think there's a concrete slab involved here. Not in the pics.View Image
Thanks, you are right of course no "concrete slab involved here".
I should have remembered from the previous posts but I found it hard to believe that a carpenter could have..... .
I guess someone succumbed to the temptation to do things fast with the results we have read about.
Hi,
The plywood sheets are 1/2" thick. not sure how thick the "strapping" is. Obviously The guy used whatever he could find in his scrap pile. The "strapping" is really soft.
Way too many voids.
wanda
Okay, now that I understand what I'm seeing, I can offer an opinion. The guy is almost doing it correctly. Its okay that he "dug through his scrap pile" because that is often what needs to be done to find the correct thickness of material for shimming. He properly spaced most of the strips on 16" oc, which should be sufficient. 5/8" ply should be heavy enough if it's T&G. All vertical joints should land over a furring strip, which should also land over an underlying joist.
You probably would have benefited from using a heavier (3/4") second subfloor.
All is not lost. There is still a little bit of subfloor work to do but you don't have to tear down your house.
HI,
So basically to level and out of level floor you have to strap the entire floor. Using 1X3 pieces of strapping to fit around the edges of the floor, and pieces to run between them across the narrower dimension of the floor. Then use a level to find the high point of the floor and work from there. Lay the strapping 16OC, wide side down. Then level with shims and screw down. Using 5/8" grade c-d plywood, c side up and draw lines to show where the pieces of strapping are located. space screws 8" apart across the panels and 6 inches apart along the edges. Stagger the ends of panels so they don't all fall on the same line of sleepers. Space panel edges 1/8" apart to prevent squeaking.
Is it best to pull up the 1/2" plywood that is screwed down? resuse or discard? The plywood sheets are now full of nails (because the engineered floor was nailed down when it was supposed to be flaoted) So I could rip it all up and Start from scratch. Why put 5/8" plywood over what that contractor has down.
I will have to go up tomorrow and unscrew every single screw and pull up the other sheets of plywood to see exactly what I am dealing with. For all I know the rest of the floor has no shims or odd pieces of strapping beneath it. The high point of that floor is smack in the middle directly in front of the fireplace. I"m willing to bet the low spots are in the corners. No doubt this structure has settled over the yrs. It's a 35 yr old bungalow. All the floors in the place are out of level.
The guy should have purchased a few bundles of wood shims and some decent 1X3 strapping. The wood he used for strapping has so much give. Why was he trying to save money! Don't forget this is the same contractor that used unpressurized wood to fix my sill plus he didn't even use a sill sealer. Told me he was trying to save me money!
The flooring installer said I should buy myself a spade and dig this guy 6ft under. That's the kind of piss poor job he did. I think he was way in over his head.
Wanda
It sure seems to get worse and worse for you in this project. It seems your contractor doesnt know too much. He made a bad situation worse with his methods.
How far out of level was the original floor? The shims/ply strips appear to vary by about 1" at most. I recall this is a cottage and not your day home. I have seen some click flooring installed on some pretty uneven floors, and once you have the furniture few ever notice. If it is just a gradual hump towards the center of the room I would be tempted to skip trying to level everything out unless you know darn sure that any foundation movement issues have been fixed. Just a thought.
I would rip out all of that #### he put in, rent a Hilti Laser level and figure out where you are starting at. If you can save the ply, great, it should work fine for the repairs even with a few extra holes.
Brad
Hi Brad,
The installer won't lay flooring over what's there since there is Too much flex in the subfloor thanks to my contractor. He thinks a quick fix might be to screw down 5/8" sheets of plywood over what's there.
This is a secondary residence.. used mostly during the summer and fall. Approx. 35 yrs old. Cinder block fondation. The contractor earlier this summer attempted to bring up the level of the floor. Where it was obvioulsy low in the left hand corner of the room. He Installed a steel beam and some 2X10's in the basement and jacked it up as far as he could. Before that I'm not quite sure how much that left corner dipped down. I doubt this fondation isn't moving anywhere in the near future.
"how far out of level was the origional flooring". That I don't know for sure. This is what I do know... after taking up all the engineered flooring the installer dropped a few marbels on the subfloor and watched them roll. Then he took 2 scraps of flooring and stretched the string across the midde of the room (lengthwise) string pulled tight on the scraps of flooring. The highspot was in the middle. There was enough clearnance for my finger to fit beneath the string. I'm estimating no more than 1/2" out. He didn't take an 8' level or anything like that to the floor to mark the low spots.
Since an engineered hardwood floor is being reinstalled the subfloor doesn't have to be dead flat .. not like a ceramic floor is is being installed then I"d have something to worry about. But right now there is too much flex in the subfloor to lay the flooring. Unfortunately, this flooring isn't click and lock. It's tongue and groove that has to be glued (glue is squeezed into the long and short grooves) Remember it's a float-in installation.
If I get rid of those 1/2" sheets of plywood the contractor put down surely a good carpenter can level up that floor properly. Using shims and strapping. One thing I do know levelling compound is out of the question.
I will just have to wait now and see what the guy says on Thursday. I was on the phone this morning talking to a different flooring installer.He's going to come up to have a look Thursday morning. Hopefully if he can't do the job he might be able to give me some contact numbers. I haven't heard back from the installer that works for the flooring company. I don't get the impression that he wants to fix up the subfloor. He said yesterday he was going to see if he could find some contact numbers for me. I'm still waiting to hear back from him.
Wanda
Hi Wanda,
Engineered flooring needs a level subfloor. Click or not click. The installer, any installer will check subfloor levelnesss and moisture. But this is too late an advice.
If you have the height, reinforce the subfloor by taking up the entire mess and start over.
Your problem gets shifted, from installer to contractor- with you, the customer in the middle.
Again: A building inspector should adress the problems and it should be done right.
There is cheap "right" and right "right".
All the time that has passed costs money too.
It seems these people are out to starve your energy.
This is a typical fix for the customer.
I was hoping this came out right when the seller agreed to reintall and I think sharing the damage was a fair offer.
But anyways,
Best of luckMathias
Hi guys,The installer came up to check out the flooring this morning. Seems it is not such a mess after all (at least according to him) It may not be perfectly level but what floor ever is in an older home which has had time to settle over the yrs. He has the proper tools to do the job. (Spotnail Stapler) which is the tool of choice for engineered flooring. Stapling it down would be better than floating the floor. He pointed out the mistakes the other installer had made. Improper size fasteners and improper tool. A brad nailer is not recommened and the nails they used were too small and too long. The pattern of the floor is also not right. (stepping effect. Seams lining up) This time the floor will be installed perpendicular to the joists. (across the width of the floor and not with the length of the room).He said I could just leave what's down on the floor perhaps put a few more shims underneath the furring. NO need to lay 5/8" plywood on top of what I have down. I have to trust he knows what he's talking about. He's been in the business of laying hardwood for over 25 yrs. He has laid floors in old homes not just newly contructed homes. He walked all over the floor and declared it perfectly acceptable for laying engineered hardwood. While he was there he also checked the wood for moisture content and the subfloor as well. Everything is fine 12% MC in the subfloor 8% in the wood itself.While he was up there he noticed the vinyl wasn't put down correctly. The seams in the plywood should have been sealed and an 3/8" underlayment should have been installed before the vinyl was laid. Now that I know putting plywood on top of a warped/wavy subfloor would only lower the height of my ceiling..How would you go about leveling the out-of-level floor if you wanted to lay click and lock type flooring? I'm not going to but what if.. just curiouswanda
He said I could just leave what's down on the floor perhaps put a few more shims underneath the furring. NO need to lay 5/8" plywood on top of what I have down. I have to trust he knows what he's talking about.
Trust, but vefify. Look at the manufacturer's recommendations, IN WRITING, to determine whether 1/2" cd ply, on 16" oc spacing, will suffice.
I'd GUESS not. I would believe something from the manufacturer in writing though. I've been led around by the nose by enough tradesmen to know that they'll tell you anthing.
Hello,
well, what if I had the contractor come up and use 8"oc spacing?
My god! I was on the phone earlier to the flooring store asking them if they would still pay the cost of installation if I had this guy install the flooring instead of their guy. He didn't say yes and he didn't say no. Just asked why I would want someone other than their installer. Asked how much $ he charged for install. He said he'd give the guy a call. That was the end of the conversation...
He phoned back 5 min later telling me my subfloor was to blame not the installation. And how he had 2 independant contractors that saw the pictures his installer took on Monday. He was doing me a nice gesture. Basically he's telling me he's going to send his report to the company. (without actually coming out and saying that) Although he already agreed to a free install before this installer went up on Mondaty. Went on to tell me my installer just wants to take my money. That subfloor is ####. It has too much flex/bounce. Said he'd have one of his guys come up and do the job. But as it stands now he's not going to install any flooring over what's there.
The man told me last week the problem with my flooring was due to moisture.Now today he is blaming it on my subfloor. According to him it's not the install but the subfloor .. where does this end?????????? One more thing.. he doesn't think it matters how the flooring is laid. I said it should be laid perpendicular to the joists for more rigidity.
So who am I to trust. It's a summerhome . An engineered floor is more forgiving. It doesn't have to be as flat. A floating floor would require a flatter surface.
wanda
I'm just glad that finally FLAT was mentioned versus LEVEL, level don't matter much whatever ya lay on it, but flat makes a huge difference.
Google Holmes on Homes and see if ya can get an ear , this is getting dicey.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
First, lets assume that the subfloor is inferior. The original installer is the professional. He should have immediately told you that the subfloor did not meet manufacturer's minimum standards. He should have refused to install any flooring on it.
He chose to move forward and install on a subfloor that we now know is inferior. His bad!
He used the wrong fasteners. His bad.
He nailed a floating floor. His bad.
He didn't test for moisture. His bad.
He didn't lay the membrane under all the floor. His bad.
I'd stay in the drivers seat on this one. I'd insist on a 100% refund or let you choose the installer of your choice and let them pay. Don't give an inch.
Lets imagine that the 1/2" subfloor, that you now have, was laid on solid 2x12 I joists...everything perfectly flat and in a perfect plane.
Would that satisfy the manufacturer's minimum subfloor requirements? I don't think so. There is too much flex in 1/2" ply between the joists. In your case: in between the furring strips. That's why I suggested a minimum 5/8" t&g subfloor.
If you choose to use the 1/2 that you have, you probably have to add additional furring strips in between each row that you have now. That would put your supports at 8" oc. That will take the bounce out of the 1/2". You probably should still run a backer at each horizontal joint.
Hi,
Hard to imagine this contractor says he lays hardwood and ceramic floors. OMG! Yikes!
Yeah 1/2" has way too much flex especially when you have the furring on 16"OC.
Says on the manufacturer's instructions that the subfloor should be within 1/8" over an 8' radius.. hmm That's pretty strict.
I have to meet with this contractor and see what I can work out. I want to know why he chose 1/2" plywood. After all he's the contractor he should know the minumum standards. Again I trusted him to know what he was doing. I don't feel it's my responsibility to watch over him.
The 1/2" plywood is going to be taken up and 5/8" select plywood is being installed.
wanda
Why not flood the floor with floor leveler after you take up the 1/2 (leaving the furring strips in place) that would give you continuous support. You could probably then reinstall the 1/2 or move up to 5/8 t&g
Wanda, there was no supervision on this job whatsoever. Fire the GC.Take everyone to court. Your GC. The subs. Small claims, you don't need a lawyer.Put a can of gas and a pack of matches by the front door this halloween and hope that someone does you a favor. This is just ridiculous. The GC totally botched this job. Massively. In a huge way.
>> there was no supervision on this job whatsoever. <<
and
>> The GC totally botched this job. Massively. In a huge way. <<
!!!EXACTLY!!!
Not sure if you have been following this saga over the past year or so, but it's been a parade of problems. I think first it was a sheetrock ceiling. Then the thing wasn't framed right. Other problems that I don't recall... Now it's the flooring contractor - or is it the guy who did the subfloor repair? Through out the entire process she talks about the contractor she hired to do that, and some other sub she hired to do something else, and someone else she hired for another job.
Obviously, by hiring different people to do different aspects of the job she is acting as the GC - as opposed to hiring one person (a GC) to run the job start to finish giving her one point of contact, and one person who is responsible for the outcome of all aspects of the job.
No I'm not saying that 1/2" subfloor on furring (leveling) strips is in anyway acceptable - not on my job, and not on your job. She let it happen on her job though. What? She didn't notice that the floor was soft before having $5,000 (or whatever) worth of floor covering installed on top of it? And no - she wasn't there when the floor installer pulled out his nail gun to install a floating floor. But it is everybody else who is the problem.... Then she wants her various subs to go to court to testify against one another???? LOL!
Edited 9/11/2009 4:13 am ET by Matt
You make a good point but you forget to note that she is also a homeowner and is hiring "experts".
Would you have laid that floor on top of spongy 1/2" ply? Or, would you have insisted on a better substrate?
The answer to that question is the heart of the matter. I'd hate to be the installer who has to try to defend himself in front of a judge.
But Blue, that's where I earned my 17%. Not just by hiring "experts", but by making sure that the "experts" that I hired were competent. If I found out after the fact that a floor under my supervision was installed without an expansion zone, without me knowing if it was glued down, nailed down, shimmed, and furred with rips of 1/2" ply...argh.Installation methods need to be talked over with the installer during the bidding process. Example, the sub comes to the site to evaluate the conditions prior to his submitting a bid. I tell him we're using "this" material and if it's an engineered product, or something out of the ordinary, I'll hand him the manufacturer's installation instructions. I ask him what his plan of attack is. If it deviates from what I expect or from "the norm", we talk about it. If there are things I know about (floor out of level) I point that out to him and we talk about that.And then there's the warning: "During the installation, if you have any problems or if you are going to deviate from what we talked about, call me."I accept no excuses. While the above may sound a little heavy-handed, I'm dropping a chunk of change in this guy's pocket. This ain't HGTV. A qualifying conversation before any sawdust is generated can prevent so many problems down the road. It also generates mutual respect. I know the job will be done the way it should be. The guy doing the installation knows that he'll get this job, and the next, and that the check will clear. Everyone is happy.Once you work with someone more than once, you know how he works, he knows what you expect. There can be less hand-holding for future jobs.Sure you can hire an "expert", but a GC's responsibility is to qualify that expert to make sure the expert isn't simply a nailgun for hire.
Hello guys,
I am not holding myself accountable for shoddy work by so called "professionals" I should not have to babysit these guys. I trust in the contractor to do his job. After all he's being paid.
I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods but around here there is a terrible shortage of knowledgeable professionals in the trades. they are screwing people over right left and center. At least where I live. There is nothing in place to protect the homeowner from this kind of fraud.
Let me set the record straight. I hired a reputable company in town to renovate my bungalow. Not exactly like I picked any contractor from the yellow pages. That was last July. I had a written contract with that company. They were supposed to have finished their work as of Sept. 6th, 2008. That did not happen and things have gone wrong ever since. I spoke with the foreman the company hired and he gauranteed me the men he had working under him were all professionals. Nothing for me to worry about. The work was so below grade I had to go up the chain of command to try and rectify the situation. Guess what.. the other 2 bimbos in the chain of command (store manager and foreman were absolutely no help. They assured me my ceiling was perfectly fine I insisted it wasn't. I had to fight them on that and call the head of the company in town to get someone out to take a look. The company wanted to send in the same idiot who f.. up the job in the first place. I said absolutely not I want someone else. Someone with the right credentials. So I had to go out and find my own contractor. The company agreed to hire him to redo the work their man screwed up.
The entire ceiling was redone, (strapped,drywalled, plasterd and painted) a girder removed and put back in its rightful place, upside down crown and casings replaced and siding replaced. You get the picture...
I have gone beyond and above what must people would have done in my situation. I kept pressing. Kind of hard to keep an eye on the workmen when this summerhome is 50 min out of town. But I did my best.
This contactor.. let's call him bob was hired by the company to redo the work their guy messed up. Then I hired him to do the crown molding in my livingroom. Which turned out pretty good. Then I hired him to fix my out-of-level floor. At no time did he tell me he didn't have the skill to do that job. It says on his business card he installs hardwood floors and ceramic floors. This guy did a good job on fixing up my ceiling, something the company tried to do 4 times till I said enough is enough and went out and found this guy (bob) on my own.
Unfortunately, this man totally bothced the subfloor job. Now the flooring company is not going to give me a free install as promised because they are saying it's not the install but my subfloor. So basically this guy has cost me $1200 plus.
I have hired a flooring guy to come in on Tuesday and put down the flooring. The floor needs some shimming not much and once the engineered flooring gets stapled down perpendicular to the joists I'm sure it will be fine. There are no squeaks in the floor and when the sheets of plywood are nailed down there isn't that many soft spots. With an older home you can't expect a perfect floor. Unless you want to dish out a lot of money. After all once the furniture is moved back how much of the actual floor is going to be walked over. Not much . This is a summerhome and not my main residence. I am not going to waste anymore time bickering with that flooring company. They are a corrupt company. I pity the poor woman that is taking them to court over a new house their contruction company was building. Apparently they screwed up her siding and flooring.
I can go blue in the face trying to reason with that flooring company. It is not worth my time or energy. If I have to pay out an extra $1200 dollars to have the floor installed so be it. It's worth the peace of mind. I want this stress out of my life.
I will make arrangements to get my furniture moved back in and hopefully by next weekend I will be enjoying a cold beer on the back deck over looking the river.
Time to move on, Carpe Diem!
wanda
One question for you - without even reading that post: Do you think I can perform your job? It is a yes or no question.
Wanda, it sounds like quite the debacle. I hope the remainder of your renovation turns out well.
Blue - I'm not with you on this one. Every sub I hire gets a written set of specs - scope if you will, with little nuances of the job or whatever. No I don't just drop off the plans and have the material delivered. They get the pleasure of dealing with me in person on the job. OK - something that takes a few hrs - I go over the job on site with them IN ADVANCE and will probably be there when they start. If you want I'll post a brief framing spec document so you can look at something you can relate to. I know you are are well into in the process of transforming from sub to GC/developer/whatever. To succeed at this you need to realize your worth and not just think that a project can be run by a secretary scheduling things from the office... A GC/Superintendent/PM/whatever knows the desired overall outcome of the project. Not individual subs... To be more specific to this thread, I make the decision if the subfloor is ready for finished flooring. Not the sub. And it's on me if it gets finished and it sucks - or squeaks - in your case. OK I make the framing sub come back, but it is me who gets the materials for the repair and it is me who pays for the finished flooring to be reinstalled. Sound familiar? Sure the flooring guy coulda said - this subfloor sucks and I'm gonna go home today with no pay.... He made the wrong decision. BFD. He will probably do it again if he has to put food on the table....
This woman needs to take a look in the mirror. 2 weeks ago she didn't even know that she had 1/2" subfloor - now that is what I call running a job - NOT!!!
She cut out out theexpense of a construction manager...now she pays
She cut out out theexpense of a construction manager...now she pays
Sorry, true professionals don't do inferior installations just because the paying client isn't a certified, knowledgeable GC. I would treat her the same as I would a Pro. When I priced things out for people like her, I always included some extra for the handholding I knew I'd be in for.
Lay the blame where it belongs: on a wannabe flooring contractor that doesn't really know his business.
She would win this one in a court.
He is being a little rough. Who amongst us hasn't had a floor laid without the services of a GC. TThis is a ridiculous arguement. The installer is assumed to be knowledgeable period.
Exactly.
If the installer isn't an expert, the GC would have the ability to take him to court and receive damages.
A GC is nothing more than a paper pusher. The GC co-ordinates and the subs are the experts and do the work. A competent flooring contractor would have refused to lay the floor and proposed a change order that allowed him to properly prep the floor. In the absence of this request, it is presumed by the GC that the subfloor was in proper condition to receive a floor. Therefore, if the flooring contractor proceeds to cover up a substandard floor, he will be the one to pay the price when it fails.
If this were being sold to a homeowner, the homeowner would sue the GC, who would sue the sub. Since she's the owner, acting as a GC, she still has the right to go after the shabby work of a sub.
She has what Moody calls "a laydown".
To further expand on that idea.
Lets take the case of a GC hiring licensed trades. Should a GC know every detail about HVAC, Plumbing, and Electrical? If there is some shabby work done there, does the buck stop with the GC? Of course not. The GC is always entitled to receive quality work even when the trades are far more knowledgeable about their work than the GC. Thats the reason we hire "specialists".
I guess the only thing I can add is I'm a bit more skeptical than you when meeting a potential sub for the first time. Regardless of what a person claims, I'll qualify that person before handing them a contract to sign.It's cool, Blue, you have your ways and they work for you. We might have different pools of labor to choose from, which is why we're a little more skeptical than you. I would rather do a little due diligence up front rather than pursue legal remedies afterwards. The due diligence might cost me a couple of hours. The remedies afterwards could put the brakes on a construction scheduling timeline, costing me days, weeks, or months. And having to deal with the court system? Winning is one thing, and in cases like this it's actually easy. But collecting is another. And collecting damages might not offset the headaches and timeline frustrations that were incurred in the first place.
Edited 9/12/2009 11:07 am ET by Mongo
I'm not sure where you are coming up with "you have your ways and I'm glad it works for you". This discussion is about Wanda hiring subs. Did she vet them perfectly? Obviously not. Of course it will cause more headache and time now that before but we are talking about now, not before.
Yes, winning is one thing, collecting is another. If she has contracted through that supply house, she has something to attach a lien too. If she can only win damages from the one truck wonder, then it's not worth bothering with.
An apparent misunderstanding on my part.Enjoy the weekend,
Mongo
I'm also in favor of 'due diligence', being pro-active. And in my book that means no 'assuming'. View Image
jim... i make it my business to understand what the job needs... what strengths my subs have... and what weaknesses
the owner has no contractual relationship with the sub.. only me... anything goes wrong...i own it... and trying to get a sub to fix something is ok for superficial things...
if i didn't like the way my framer was leveling the sill... i'd be all over it then...
i'd not be trying to salvage the job after the roof is framed
basically...wanda hired the wrong people to do her work... the responsibility is determined by the contract
we should all remember that we're contractors first... and builders second
houses are built with paper... nails just hold the pieces together
how's your golf game ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
My golf game is non-existent: no time.
I would think both the GC and the sub would be responsible for the work. I know if it was my project and I was the GC I would be supervising all the aspects of the job to make sure they were done according to the plans, industry standards and/or my satisfaction. If I was the sub I would be looking at the situation (ideally before install date) and refuse to do the work untill the prep was adequate. If the GC was an amateur or unknown to me I would probably scrutinize the job more closely. I would rather have one lost day than an unhappy client, a lawsuit or a bad reputation.
OTOH if I was the sub and everything about the job appears atleast superficially to be proper then I would of course go ahead and any liability would be on the GC. So in my view the GC screwed up and if the prep was obviously inadequate (ie. bouncy subfloor) then the sub is also liable . And, of course, as we read the flooring was installed oddly as well which puts both parties at fault.
Wanda hired professionals who failed to deliver professional results. It is contractors like that who make all of us in the industry look bad and make it more time consuming and costly to do our work.
Do you really think a judge would call Wanda a GC? I don't think so. The judge would see her as a homeowner and the entire blame would land on the "professionals".
Homeowners are allowed to contract with more than one trade and still be a "homeowner". A GC is an entirely different beast.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify what I wrote.
Wanda is the home owner. The GC would be the original contractor she hired to do the reno our whoever replaced them. It is possible there is no GC at all by now and the responsibility for the sub floor would be on the carpenter who installed it without professional supervision. Wanda hired them to install a flat (and level?) sub floor suitable for engineered flooring. IMHO it is up to the professionals to deliver and they failed. As to what a court would think????????
I don't treat a home owner like a GC regardless of how they are acting. I think it is often important to discuss and provide information to HOs above and beyond what one would normally discuss with another professional. Afterall the end product will reflect on all involved including me.
In this case, the flooring installer was also the subfloor prepper. This guy doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Hello,
Let's see if I can explain my situation.
I paid my contractor to install a "subfloor" .(technically it's an underlayment) subfloors are screwed to joists. I told him I was going to have an engineered floor laid down. (now keep in mind this man says he lays hardwood and ceramic floors) I can only go by what's on his business card. This man claims to own and operate a construction company.
Next step: I went into a flooring store in town. A reputable flooring company. Just ask anyone and they'll tell you that's the first flooring store that comes to mind when buying flooring.
I went in and asked for their advise regarding my situation. I made it clear that I was laying a floor in my summerhome and that I didn't heat the premises during the winter months. I needed to know what flooring was best for my situation. They said engineered was fine. So I purchased Award Patina relics milano red flooring. They told me they would have one of their installers put the floor in. I didn't have to go out and hire anyone to do the job. They assured me their men were professionals. I would have no problem with the installation. So I took their advise I let them send up their installer to install the flooring. AND just look what happened to me. The man compeltely botched the job. Turned out they sent their vinyl /carpet guy to install my floor. Too late now for them to turn around and say on the phone the other day t hat the man shouldn't have been asked to install an engineered floor.
moisture issue is mute and so is the subfloor issue... It was the installers responsibility to check out the environement in which the floor was being installed. NO moiture meter.. not my problem. No level Not my problem. He rushed in and he rushed out. Told me everything was fine. I asked him to make sure the subfloor was ok.
I spent my afternoon stacking flooring and taking up the part of the floor that was glued and nailed. 60sq ft in total that can't be reused. It's ruined. I might actaully be a bit short on material. But last week the company said they had some extra flooring in their warehouse. (but that was last week) Ever since their TOP installer went up last Monday and took pictures of my "lovely" subfloor and told me they had 2 independent installers that looked at those pictures.. and said they'd go to the company with those pictures . NOW they are claiming it's the subfloor and not the install. BS!!!!!!!
I will find out on Monday for sure whether or not they are going to give me the install for free. We had a conference call a week ago and the flooring store agreed to give me a free install. A verbal agreement!
God help me come Monday when I ask if they're going to pay for the install if I hire my own guy to install it. what will they say when I ask them for more material. I can't lay this floor if I don't have enough material. But if they refuse to give me extra flooroing to cover the wood they damaged I'll just have to put vinyl in the hallway. I'll then have enough to cover the main room with enough for wastage.
I counted 23 boxes (16.2sqft per carton) plus 4 boxes of various length boards and 1 box of not so good wood. Only to be used if absolutely necessary. They told me weeks ago they had more in their warehouse. Unless they really want to f.. me over!
The contractor was supposed to meet with me this afternoon. He was a no show. I will phone him again tomorrow. Hope he hasn't forsaken me! Can this flooring mess get any worse??????????????? I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he had a medical emergency. If I can't reach him by phone tomorrow then I have something to worry about.
wanda
Yeah it is all your problem. You paid, you got a bad job. Don't GC your own jobs or if you do, check your people.
She did not act as GC. The GC in this case would have been the flooeing co. she bought the floor from.
By the way, she had permits in the first instance and gentlemen, this is a Cluster ****.
She was taken advantage of in the first instance by a company that supposedly had the experience to do the project.
This instance, she hired a store, in effect a GC to do her flooring.
Yes, it seems she is having a run of bad luck in her hiring practises. In fact she has claimed to have not even gone with low bidder.
My personal feelings, she has run into a location that hasn't got many if any competant carpenters or contractors!
<In this case, the flooring installer was also the subfloor prepper. This guy doesn't have a leg to stand on.>He's already walked away, probably sitting down , and drinking a beer Wanda bought him... who needs a leg?All the this contractor, that contractor Wanda's been slinging... she lost me a long time ago.But, it seems that in our world, Wanda would be the GC, homeowner or not. If there was a permit pulled, and her name's not on it, she's got a gripe...but we haven't heard anything about that. All these contractors she's had problems with are probably sub-contractors. Wanda seems to do her homework after the the horse is out of the barn. She knows everything about "engineered" flooring installs now... wooohooo... I'll bet flat and level never came up when she was hiring. It's a remodel, my subs would work to existing conditions unless otherwise specified. I know I should be pushing paper around, but on a remodel, I would actually meet my flooring sub onsite and express any concerns my experience (of pushing paper around, of course) may raise some flags about... I know I'm probably losing money over that move<G> We'd probably come to some solutions... or I might move on to someone else, hmmmm.
Wanda has a vacation site, which is probably remote, and the bidders probably never went there. She bought some flooring, gave them an address, and a check. Wanda's pulling the relying on the mercy of strangers defense... didn't even always work for Scarlett O'Hara.Wanda's was judgement impaired, now she wants someone else to pay for that.And, judging from Wanda's other problems with this job, I'd have to put money on there's more to this than her side of the story.Unless you're the judge, I don't see this as the cut and dried case you're portraying... of course, that's just my 2¢<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Actually, after reading Wandas recent story, I think it more than cut and dried.
She bought a floor from a flooring store. They also sold her the installation and supplied the labor. The buck ends right there. They are the experts. They are the ones that need to follow the manufacturer's minimum standards regarding the subfloor. IF that floor was substandard, they should have stopped and notified her immediately and she then would have had to pay someone to make is suitable.
This is a slam dunk against the expert who laid the floor over an unsuitable substrate.
We, the trademen have to know our business if we are going to offer our services. The burden is placed on our shoulders. Wanda is a consumer, buying professional flooring products and installation. It is up to the installer to tell her that her floor isn't suitable.
Could you imagine how you'd feel if you were the installer and you had to tell the judge "I didn't know that the floor was not suitable, so I laid it anyways. " Would you really want to tell the judge that?
Wanda got shoddy work from two different contractors. I am not certain,however, how apparent the inadequate subfloor would have been to the flooring contractor. In any case (pun intended) the flooring installation stands on its own as an example of poor workmanship.
I am not certain,however, how apparent the inadequate subfloor would have been to the flooring contractor
I wouldn't want to be the subcontractor that stood up in front of the judge and said "the inadequate subfloor wasn't apparent to me".
Judge "Case closed! Uh.....weren't you supposed to check it before you installed your flooring?"
It seems obvious to me that the responsibility for the fiasco floor should be on the contractors who laid the sub and finish floors but some of the other posters here seem to ascribe part of the blame to Wanda. Who knows what a judge would think after hearing both sides of the story? Maybe we will find out but I hope not. I hope the contractors step up, put in a few days work and the minimal amount of material required and Wanda gets a decent floor.
Hi guys,
The flooring company is ignoring me. I went into the store this morning to see if I could pick up the flooring they owed me. But unfortunately they didn't give me the time of day. Said the guy I wanted to talk to was in meetings. (how convenient) I'm being given the run-around.
Since leaving the store I've phoned 3 X asking to speak with the guy in charge who promised to provide me with the extra flooring material to cover the boards that were damaged. (60sq.ft) I have left several messages for him to call me back. I told the man on the phone my installer needed some extra material and to get back to me as soon as possible. NO phone call! It's now 2:05pm in the afternoon.
Either they have the flooring or they don't. Obviously they don't have any left. But they are not going to come out and tell me that. Hopeing I'll just give up.
I phoned the Sales Rep.in Halifax to see if he could try and get in touch with the guy.. To make a long storey short.. the Sales Rep. is just passing the buck telling me there is nothing he can do. His company can't discipline an independent dealer. Isn't it nice to learn that one of the largest flooring distributors in Canada can't step in and help a customer. So much for their mission statement and ethics. Not good enough. Shame on them. Basically I'm being told it's between the me ( the customer) and the company to resolve the problem.
Here's what was sent to me Sept 4th/2009 by the Sales Representative from Halifax. Gee, I figured things had been worked out.
"Ms. W.
"I'm sending this email as a brief recount of our conversation this afternoon, confirming the arrangement made with Mr.H. of (name of flooring company) to reinstall your hardwood flooring. The offer that was made by Mr. H was for them to go correct the installation mistakes that were made the first time, bringing in extra material to cover any boards that might be damaged in the process. Mr. P also confirmed that this would be done at no extra cost to you. "
"hopefully this installation will be successful and to your satisfaction. Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have any further questions."
It's over! Looks like they are not going to honour their agreement (verbal agreement). NO extra flooring for me. No transition pieces. They are not going to pay for the install either.
So far I have paid out $7000 dollars for an engineered floor, vinyl flooring and transition pieces and now I have to fork over another $1200 plus to have my floor (properly) installed by a professional company here in town.
Talk about being screwed over. I drove up to my summer home this morning to let the installer in and discoverd that my contractor (the one that attempted to level the floor) didn't replace the piece of plywood I asked him to replace yesterday. He just screwed the piece back down. (no doubt trying to save a bit of money) I even had the piece marked ... REPLACE Darn, I should have thrown it in the junk pile. This contractor is no better than the rest of them. I would have been up to keep an eye on him yesterday but I was too busy I couldn't get away. Remember he's the same numbskull that used unpressurerized wood for my sill. I think that guy needs to go back to carpentry school!!!!! I could really rip his #### off!
Wanda
"for them to go correct the installation mistakes"
Sounds to me as if it is YOU that is violating what was agreed to because you aren't letting THEM correct the installation. He never agreed to give you whatever you wanted to allow you to fix the problem.
ALthough, to be honest, I would probably give you 60 sq ft on the condition that you never call, stop in, look at or even drive by my business again.
Hello,
Would you allow those hacks back in your premises to reinstall a floor after they completely botched the installation. Then wanted to blame their defective installation on a moisture problem. I think not.
wanda
I'm not quite sure I follow you now. What exactly are you wanting from them? Materials? It sounds like they are supposed to be fixing the installation mistakes, but you won't let them. If you are expecting them to pay another company to come in and fix it for you, you're dreaming. I wouldn't want them back in, but it sounds like that is what was agreed upon.
hello,
The company is now Claiming it's not the install but my subfloor that's the problem... So my question to them is ... Why didn't they check the subfloor before installing the floor????. Had they done that in the first place I wouldn't be in the situation I"m in now. What professional would lay a floor over a shoddy subfloor??????? They chose to go ahead with the installation.
I was willing to allow them to come in and reinstall the floor. But they had their installer come up last week and he said he wouldn't lay a floor over what's there. So I had another company come up to give me an opinion on the subfloor. He said the floor could be stapled down no problem. Let's face it they are just trying to get out of paying for the install.
Bit late now to be claiming it's the subfloor. Before the installation of any hardwood flooring the installer must determine that the enviornment of the job site and the condition and type of subfloor involved is acceptable, ensuring, that it meets or exceeds all the requirements stipulated in the installation instructions. (are we all in agreement with that.. yes/no?
In my case the installer should have told me there was a problem. But instead he chose to move forward and install on a subfloor that was problematic.
1. wrong fasteners used
2. float-in installation completely nailed and only 60sqft glued.
3. no moisture test taken prior to laying the floor
4. foam underlayment missing in hallway and part of livingroom.
5. pattern laid out incorrectly.. stepping effect plus seams lining up.
6. No expansion gap
7. was asked to check the subfloor prior to installation to make sure it was up to standards. Obviously the installer didn't inspect the floor very carefully
8. Since when do you nail through foam underlayment? a staple down installation requires rosin paper or 15lb asphalt felt.
9. Brad nailing gun is not the right tool for the job. Spotnail stapler is recommended for a staple- down- installation.
If that doesn't qualify as a defective install I don't know what does.
The installer failed to perform his job. That's what is at the heart of the matter here.
I absolutely agree that true professionals "experts" don't do inferior installation and that the installer is ASSUMED to be knowledgeable.
wanda
Here in the states we can get a lawyer or at least I can, to write a letter to them for about $100. I would suggest you try this.
What a mess!
There are various opinions on this site as there are on yours. I agree with you that the flooring company is at fault. I would have expected them to have noticed any issues with the sub floor before starting or barring that shortly after beginning at which point options (ie redo or press on) could have been discussed. I suppose the question is how apparent the sub floor inadequacies were. If the sub floor was not made out of tongue and groove plywood the long joints would tend to be uneven and flexible (unless blocking was installed underneath) which would be obvious. Flexibility of the floor should be apparent when one walked on the floor however an isolated soft spot might escape initial detection. Whether the sub floor is acceptable etc is, however, somewhat subjective in the context of a renovation (although manufacturers usually have standards).
In any event, as you have detailed, the flooring itself was installed in a manner which failed to comply with both standard practice and manufacturers specifications. This failure is the flooring installler's which they have recognized and hence have offered to relay the flooring. I fully understand any reluctance you have to continue relying on those who have proved untrustworthy in the past. Never-the-less you do need the missing flooring and as Cussnu2 said one would expect they would give it to you in exchange for an agreement severing the relationship. Perhaps as Frammer52 said you should get a lawyer to write them.
As consumers we are all at the mercy of the professionals once we venture outside the fields of our expertise. What happened to you could to any of us. Good luck.
Take the advice I gave you. Call them and tell them you need 60 sq ft. If they will give you that you'll never call them again. Don't go over your soap opra litney. Don't ramble on about what has been said or not said. 60 second conversation. I would like 60 sq ft of flooring to match and you'll never hear from me again. You may even have to offer to sign something absolving them of further liability for the installation. Thats all you need to say.
If I were the owner, I'd jump on that in a heart beat.
Once this is over, you might want to sit peacefully with a nice drink and ask the question,
Why DOES this happen to me?
instead of
Why does this happen to ME?
Hello cussnu2,
The flooring company doesn't have 60sq ft of flooring material to give me. Knowing there was a problem with the flooring they should have kept a few extra boxes aside. When they made that verbal agreement on the phone I'm willing to bet they knew then they didn't have any extra material to replace the wood they damaged (60sqft.)
Perhaps that explains why they offered to install a 3/4" hardwood floor over a 1/2" plywood subfloor in a MOISTURE ridden environment. Desperate for me to except that deal. Told me the problem with my flooring was due to moisture but yet wanted to install a solid HARDWOOD floor for me. That makes no sense whatsoever... until you put all the pieces of the puzzle together. Obviously They weren't going to admit they didn't have enough material to replace the 60sqft they damaged due to an improper install.
AFter SEVERAL phone calls yesterday( the store wasn't getting back to me I had to phone and phone and phone) Finally.. they told me they had 40sqft and could possibly find another 20sqft. So I went in to the store to pick up the material only to be told that they only had 32sq ft. The man thought there was 20sqft in each box... miscalculation on his part.. wouldn't be the first time! The man also said the wood was sold awhile ago. WHAT???? now that changes everything.
Seems those men can't keep their stories straight. Earlier in the morning I was told by the other co-owner to let him know how much sq ft I needed because he was laying the flooring in a house and therefore wanted to know how much I needed. I told him I needed 120sqft. why didn't he tell me while I had him on the phone that he didn't have the flooring . What lies!
The pieces of the puzzle are slowly coming together. I know of 5 other people who have had problems with this company. There are other flooring companies around town that know about this company
wanda
wanda
Edited 9/16/2009 10:53 am by Wanda200
Maybe you can do a border (or another type of design) in a different species of wood flooring to make up for the missing material. It might be easier than trying to mess with the hallway.
Hello sisyphus,
Turns out the installer had enough flooring to finish up the job. Lucky for me.
Take a look at these pictures of the finished floor and tell me what you think. I think the man did a pretty darn good job.
Note: the floor is now running perpendicular to the joists (across the width of the room) and it has been stapled down instead of floated. Before it was installed perpendicular to the large window running the length of the room and not perpendicular to the joists.
wanda
Happy???
Wanda,The main question is, are YOU happy?Did you give hima cup of coffee? :o)View Image
It doesn't matter what you want. They never agreed to let you hire someone else to come in and fix it.
They agreed to come in and fix and now you don't want to adhere to that. Its your choice not to take them up on what they agreed to.
Your options.
#1 Let them do what they agreed to
#2 Try to sue them but the judge isn't going to be overly impressed that they offered to fix it and you won't let them especially if they are a well known store with hundreds of satisfactory installs under their belt. "Your honor, I've been in business for 20 years. We have done thousands of installations. This is the first time we have been sued. We offered to reinstall the flooring and she refused." You've even admitted they are recongized as the experts in the area and the first one that comes to mind for flooring.
#3 Go pound sand
Somehow, I get the feeling your whole life has been a soap opra. I also get the impression you are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear on a beer budget. Hows that for mixed metaphors?
Best of luck but I think they made their last best offer.
We could probably have fixed the whole floor in less time than has spent collectively posting and reading about it.
I often work with a carpenter who used to live in Newfoundland (province of Wanda's "adventure") he says it is beautiful there. He also has made derogatory remarks about some of their local craftmanship.
Jim,I've installed floors as a carpenter, and I've had floors installed as a GC.As an installer, I walk the floor to see if there's anything weird. If there is, I tell whoever is paying me. They can fix it, or pay me to do it. I'll install, but won't warrantee any sketchy situations.I once framed a duplex for a HO/GC. The floor system was 2x8x8' on 24" centers. 1/2" plywood subfloor. When it came time for the oak, he wanted it nailed to the 1/2", no underlayment... I sure didn't warrantee that.As a GC, I watch subs like a hawk, until I'm sure they know what they're doing, and doing it. I know it's hard to believe, but I have had people tell me they could/would do something, and then they couldn't, or didn't?!?<G> I'm not sure how one get's professional floorer status in Canada. Here, there's a flooring association(s), but I don't think I've ever actually hired a member... I get folks whose work I've seen, and like. In any profession, some are better than others. Sorting them out's not always easy... some sorters are better than others... Wanda did her due diligence after the floor went in, and, even though the pics have the job look bad, we're only getting Wanda's side/interpretation...and her refusal to take any kind of responsibility seems a little over the top. I mean, she did pick all these "professionals"... and she sure doesn't act like she's going in
front of a judge....and I do hope for the best for Wanda<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
My understanding is that there is no GC on the job. The HO is hiring different contractors to do different aspects of the job. I'm not absolving anyone involved with the job of responsibility. Not the guy who did the questionable subfloor repair, not the flooring installer who installed the floating floor wrong, and not the person who said: OK subfloor is done so now I'll get some finished floor installed, without checking the subfloor apparently due to an inability to do so.
Stepping back from the current problem of the floor install being messed up, the job has been one problem after another with the person coordinating the job crying to BT about how all these contractors are incompetent. Again, not saying mistakes weren't made, I'm just saying there is a lack of supervision on the job.
If you recall the cieling, trusses, flue, and trim issues of the OTHER thread, you will see that she DID have a contractor ( I wouldn't say a General, but a "company" maybe local speak in Canukistan) that she had to fire and find another.
THIS is a dolt as well it seems. She has made visits and spotted slip shod or questionable work and as the HO pointed it out. Is THAT not supervising the hired help?
Asking here she is maybe getting conflicting advice on some parts, but really, she is calling them out when something is amiss. I commend her to an extent, I don't mind working with well informed folks, but frome here on in this lady is gonna be gun shy of whoever darkens her doorstep, That I know.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Hello,
Well the best installer in the city came up to take a look on Monday as you know since you've been following the thread and even he admitted that he thought the floor subloor was fine until he noticed an area in the hallway. Had he not seen that he said he would have laid that floor over what's there and nobody would be the wiser.
Only one man was hired to do all the fix it work. I have only been in contact with him. Call him a G/C if you like. His card says contractor.He has 4-6 men working for him. I have not subcontracted out. This contractor laid the subfloor and messed it up. He obviously didnt' supervise his men. Hell, for all I know he did the work himself. That I will find out tomorrow when I meet with him. Interesting how I have the flooring company telling me it's a piss poor job yet the installer who happens to work for another flooring company in the city is not too perturbed by what he saw. It's not a perfect job but it's adequate. This man has experience working on older homes so I'm going with his opinion.
wanda
I searched your post for the words 'yes' or/or 'no'. Didn't find any. Good luck with your project.
Hire a general contractor to take the entire project to 100% completion.
Thats such a mess, I don't even know what I'm looking at.
Did he lay the flooring over those strips?
I am thinking it is plywood strips (1/2" ?) shimmed up on a concrete floor covered by sheets of plywood subfloor. Lots of potential flexing there.
Hello,
NOPE it's not on top of concrete.
We have new plywood installed(screwed down) directly over the old plywood subfloor. But this guy used spruce strips at 16" OC to shim up the floor. His idea of making the floor level/flat.
wanda
HI,
YES, he did lay the plywood right on top of those strips! That's why there is so much FLEX in the subfloor. If you look carefully you can see the Lattice.. that he used to shim the subfloor.
wanda
Hi,
Have a look at these pictures of the hall and tell me which way a professional flooring installer would install the engineered flooring.
You can see in pics number 1 and 2 how nicely the flooring transitions from the main living area into the hallway. (those pics were taken today after my installer reinstalled the flooring. (the company refused to reinstall the flooring over my "inferior" subfloor so I had no other choice but to hire my own installer ) otherwise I'd be living with no flooring in my main room or hallway.
Picture number 3 was taken after part of the hallway was installed. (company's attempt at installing an engineered hardwood floor) The flooring in the main room was installed lengthwise and not perpendicular to the joists.
wanda
I discuss direction of flooring, decking etc with the client giving any blatant pros and cons (eg. flooring perpendicular to the joists may produce a firmer floor) and let them have the final say. Communication and exceeding expectations are the keys to mutual happiness.
I hope the pups are well and the rest of your reno goes smoothly.
Hi guys,
Here are some more pics of the dachshund puppies. 17 days old. What a difference a week can make. The first picture was taken a while ago. Now they're actually looking like puppies. Their eyes are now open.
Yes, I am pleased with the flooring. Very pleased. I think the man did a terrific job considering he didn't have much wood to waste. Running the floor perpendicular to the joists gives the floor more strength. The company kept arguing with me that it didn't matter what way the flooring was installed. LOL I guess they don't understand what the term transition means either.
As for the flooring company that ripped me off I am ready to go after their b.....! They've taken $1300 out of my pocketbook.
I have to get my carpenter up to fix his boo boo in the kitchen and then the transition pieces go in and then the doors can be hung. The renos are coming to a completion. Wow! it's finally over.
wanda
Please take them to small claims court and tell us how it ends.
>>
Ask where first.
<<
Hehehe... :-)
If this goes to court you will need an "expert" to testify on your side.And since you can't find an local installer you might need to find a certified inspector.http://www.nwfacp.org/findCp.aspxI don't know if they have members in Canada or not. If the locator does not find anything, then use the contact page and see if they know of a similar Canadian group..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I'll keep mum after this, but do realize that the floor will never ever settle until it has a gap around the perimeter. In the dry winter it might "shrink" a bit and quiet down, but come summer it'll get tight and start creaking and cracking.Sure, engineered doesn't move as much as solid species. But it still moves.And no padding? Ugh.Good luck. Keep taking photos and keep documenting conversations and meetings.
Can you take some pictures of the nails? I've worked with engineered stuff that has metal embedded in it at regular intervals, and I'm wondering if that's what you are seeing.The moisture issues sound like the killer here.
"Wanda/Wendy? :) Einen Tippenfehler!"Oh come on, be honest.Your name is really Martha, isn't it ?;o)....You are always welcome at Quittintime
He might be done, but he still has 30 days to service his work...here in Texas. If she swoops in and hires someone else to fix his mess, he's off the hook. She has to give him time to service his work. The time doesn't start ticking till she notifys him in writing that there is a problem....in most cases.
There are exceptions to every rule though....
Canadian rules, who knows!