In most of the custom houses that my office is designing these days, we are almost exclusively specing engineered lumber for floor frames. Conventional studs are still the norm, except sometimes around the kitchen area we ask for timberstrand studs to make life easier for the cabinet and countertop guys.
The problem I have is this: I don’t see the stuff being used correctly by some of the framers. Especially under some bearing walls, where you need “squash blocks” and blocking. Web stiffeners are not where they are needed. Cantilevers are not being done right either. Correct nails and nailing patterns are being ignored. I actually just learned that they recommend you put a dab of construction adhesive in the bottom of every joist hanger to prevent squeaks.
I wish that I could say that every set of plans that we produce had a detail for every connection and like 5 cross sections, but unfortunately, in order to put in that kind of time we would have to be able to charge normal fees, and subsequently would be out of business in a month or so.
So I wanted to hear what people thought about these products. They have been around for a long time now and it seems to me that most people should be pretty comfortable working with it.
Would any framers rather be building entire houses out of engineered studs, and insulated headers, rimjoists etc.
Are architects/engineers giving enough detail in their plans regarding specific situations like I previously mentioned.
Replies
Generally I like tried & true stuff, but I've recently used truss joists for a house and thought they were great. Sure you have to learn a few details, but I found them easier to use, lighter, and much less defects than some conventional lumber you get these days. Framing actually went faster & with less men
TrusJoist enjoys a 70 percent market share for engineered wood products in North America.
Most jobs that have I-joist floor frames are engineered by the supplier of the materials. TrusJoist has set up their distributors with the software and trained their personnel with the expertise to use it. Engineers are on staff to sign and seal plans, if necessary.
The preprinted instructions I have seen from TrusJoist, and others that compete with them, are quite comprehensive.
If your firm is doing the engineering, and not the I-joist supplier, why aren't you simply referring to those instruction on your plans?
What excuse do the framers give for not following instructions? What excuse do your clients have for letting their subs ignore instructions?
"The preprinted instructions I have seen from TrusJoist, and others that compete with them, are quite comprehensive"Yeah thats true. I was just rereading it which prompted me to start this thread. The "framer's pocket guide" from truss joist.
Boise cascade seems to being substituted here a lot. We always spec the trussjoiust stuff. I think it's a better product. They get away with it because tehy re-engineer and stamp their own set of framing plans. One day a framer called us pissed because the carrying beam for a second floor wall was off 5 1/2". I went to the site and he referred me to the plans. They were the plans that boise had supplied. The part that killed me was not only did the engineer who redrew the plans put dimensions on them that were way off (he dimensioned to the wrong side of the 2x6 wall hense the 5 1/2" discrepancy) but the framer was taking his dimensions for locating those beams form their plans, not ours.
I was at a loss.
If I were to bid on a framing job with engineered products, I would expect there to be specific information about required techniques for their application. I don't care if it comes from the product manufacturer or the architect. Then I'd be prepared to bid accordingly and sign a contract which stipulates those specifics.
So, if you don't stipulate and provide resources for techniques, don't gripe. We ain't MIND READERS ovah heah. ;-)
Peter
That seems reasonable enough. But at the same token, Im sure you have never seen a set of plans that told you specifically how many nails to put in each stud. Rather, there would be something maybe in teh general specs that told the framers/carpenters what set of standards that tehy should adhere to.Similarly, we refer to the specifications supplied by trussjoist. Among others.I would never claim that a framer should just "know what to do" that would not be fair at all.I still keep seeing alot of those standards ignored. And I don't think it's because of laziness. I think there are alot of framers who are used to using standard dimensional lumber, and they just assume/expect thet trussjoist stuff to behave the same way.
"That seems reasonable enough. But at the same token, Im sure you have never seen a set of plans that told you specifically how many nails to put in each stud. Rather, there would be something maybe in teh general specs that told the framers/carpenters what set of standards that tehy should adhere to."
There are long time industry standards for most nailing applications. If a contractor wants somethng else, it's up to him/her to provide that information in a timely fashion. For example, studs can be end nailed or toe nailed but I would bid the job differently were the contractor to stipulate toe nailing.
My point was/is that any manufactured products to be used should be enumerated in the bid request, with clear references to the manufacturer's preferred method of application. And the contract should stipulate that those methods are to be followed. Otherwise, you get the carpenter foreman's best guess as to what will work.
Peter
I agree completely with the Hudson Valley Carpenter guy. You don't have the time or resources to include the proper details in the plans, then you get what you get. The manufacturers and many suppliers don't seem to have a problem providing the framers with the cross sections they need... why do you? The fact that you don't think you can charge enough to properly do your job sounds more like your problem than the framer's problem.
The thing with I-joists are that their are so many different scenarios that need to be handled differently depending upon the variables. Anytime we frame with I-joists (which is about 90% of the houses lately) we get an engineered drawing from the supplier. Any and all connections are layed out in seperate cross sections on the drawings. Those sets of drawings are indepensible. We can frame a 1200 square foot deck, cut to pieces, and end up with a scrap pile that'll fit in a 5 gal bucket.
Those drawings show me when a rim joist is enough, when squash blocks are needed, when web fillers are needed, which hardware goes where, how many nails are required in each piece of hardware, even a nailing schedule. It's my job to follow the drawings and build to spec. It's not my job to access loads and determine a prescription.
You seem towant the framers to change how they're doing their job... but you don't want to change the way you're doing yours to accomodate them. It's the designer/architect/engineer's job to dictate how the house is put together. It's the framer's job to do the work and make it happen.
I'm not trying to be abrasive or argumentative, I'm just trying to show you how it looks from "this side".
Right on brother, tell the man how the people feel!
Sounds to me like you guys are taking full advantage of the fact that these suppliers are providing such great drawings. We do all our engineering with cert. str. engineers in house cause those suppliers, at least to my knowledge, wont do the engineering for roofs. So, from a coordination standpoint its just easier to do the entire thing.
Nine out of ten times though, the drawings go to a lumber yard, and then they produce their own framing plans just like your mentioning.
So with that being said, why do we still find mistakes? Not mistakes like oops i mislocated that beam or wall, but like they are not using the product correctly.
We provide more drawings than most every single arch firm I've ever seen. I said 5 cross sections or more is excessive. My point was that we literally can't tell you how many nails to put in every board. And Yes, a general spec that you should follow the guidlines by the manufacturer should be sufficient in many cases, like general conditions where blocking is required. Don't take what I said the wrong way. What I mean't was that I literally can't give a detail for every single aspect of the entire home. You and I know that is impossible. Have you ever had a 100 page set of drawings for a house? I wouldn't count on ever seeing that.
Ive been told by framers and gc's that we have some of the most comprehensive plans they have ever worked from. Thats not to pat myself on the back, but rather to point out that, despite my statement about time and money being a factor, I don't think the problem is with the plans in most cases
I want to do my job better. Which is why I asked the questions. Im not pointing fingers and saying why do the framers keep screwing up
Edited 12/2/2005 7:27 pm ET by xosder11
Hey bud.... you asked a question.... I answered it.
So you didn't like what I had to say? No big deal. But don't try to tell me I'm wrong. You asked for an opinion and got one.
Why ask a question, when you've obviously already made up your mind? You're already sure you're doing your job correctly/sufficiently and are apparently just looking for someone to tell you the framers are buffoons that should know better.
Here.... let me oblige.... .
Hey, xosder11..... Keep up the good work. You're doing just fine. It's not your fault. The framer's an idiot. He should know better.
Feel better?
On a serious note..... why not just use a lumberyard that produces the drawings in question? Around here it's a service that is provided standard with the purchase of a floor system from the bigger lumberyards and some of the smaller ones too.
I'm sorry dude... I just don't agree with you. If the information we are talking about is a 'given' as you seem to think it is, why do the manufacturers supply the suppliers with the software to get the information out to the framers? Why does a third party without any real interest or risk in the outcome of the project (the lumberyards) supply the information if it's unnecessary?
Furthermore.....why can't you just use the cross section drawings that the manufacturer supplies in your own drawings? Why would that add significantly to the cost? You could fit about 10 of those cross sections on a page. On most frames only about three different ones are needed anyway. It's not like you'd have to redesign anything each time.... just add in the appropriate sections as needed. You don't have to draw your clients joist and squash block.... you just have to show a joist and squash block, right?
And please don't split hairs. We both know we're not talking about how many nails in a stud to top plate connection.
And yes..... I saw a 100+ page loose leaf binder with specs for a 6000 sq ft house once that my buddy bid on as a GC. It was intimidating, to say the least.
I think this spiraled in the wrong direction. I edited my message cause I diddn't like my own tone, but the new one is probably no better. Can't seem to stress enough that I'm not saying framers are buffoons.
We take advantage of all the tools you are describing. And those things are all supplied to the framers.
Point was, that mistakes are still being make and I wanted to start a discussion about the fact that it may not be worth while to use all of these I joists and supposedly better product if it's not going to be used right. I'm sure you are doing fine. My question was whether or not the information is being made available to you guys in general.
I only know what is given out on the jobs I work on. But I wondered in general how the support was from the actual distributers, other architects, etc.
Edited 12/2/2005 7:39 pm ET by xosder11
I think we answered you questions. The info I furnish is from Weyerhauser / TrusJoist and clear enough for my Mexican frame crew(s) to understand. Custom details and standard genaric details are furnished per custom home, and they are avaliable to answer questions if you call.
If you furnishing this type of info and the framers are screwing up, the problem is field supervision.
Well then I owe you an apology I guess. My bad. The way I read your posts, it appears as though you felt that the additional cross sections were unnecesary and therefore you didn't supply them. And they cost too much to produce and you couldn't find a way to charge for that time.
But now you're saying that you do in fact provide this information we've all been talking about all along.
I'm not sure I really understand your point now.
If the information is in fact being provided and the framers are ignoring it then, yes... of course the framers are doing something wrong. To have the information and not use it is ignorant. But I didn't think that was the case you were making.
Here, I'll try again. Yes, the information is being provided to us and yes we use it. It makes my job easier if I pay attention to this stuff as it eliminates confusion and debate and allows me to deliver what is expected and required.
As far as support... it's there if I need it. But the information provided with those secondary drawings is usually so thorough that it's not needed. We've solved some fairly substantial change order issues over the phone with the lumberyard's engineers and the I-joist software while I was still onsite framing away.
With the exception of one architect that I can think of.... I avoid calling the architect for answers at pretty much all costs. It's always a last resort. My experience is that many architects automatically assume it's a personal attack if I suggest a different way of doing something or have a question about their design. That's just my experience though and maybe I've just had bad luck.
I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot. Chalk it up to miscommunication.
The fact that you have found so many architects difficult to deal with is unfortunate. Personally, as I mentioned I have had no problem in teh past actually going to a job site and working from problem to resolution directly with the framers. But I like being in the field and teh lead framer and I got along well so I was loving spending those nice summer days on the job site. One day my boss called me to tell me I had to get my #### back to the office. In all truthfullness, One thing that I think would make me much better at my job is if I were to spend a year or two actually working for a good framing crew.At the same token I also want to wire some houses, do some plumbing work, and install a heating/cooling system.Point being, I wish as a designer I had a little more practical experience.Thats why I was trying to tap into the "view from teh field" that alot of people on this forum could offer.Problem being, as a framer, you mostly would be aware of what is happening on the projects you are working, and it sounds like you have no problem following the details correctly. Thats great, and I get excited when I see that caliber crew working on one of the projects we designed because I know it's getting done right.But there are people getting it wrong. I think I am thinking more of a couple of specific cases where I saw some things that looked a little weird, and I can't expect anyone to answer the question of how and why it's happening, if they are not having any problem working with engineered lumber products.Basically, I think of one specfific case from last winter where a framer I respect greatly had run into some problems on an 8000 sq. ft. custom. The problem: it was the dead of winter when they started framing, he was really slow and by his own admission he underbid by about 25000 just to ensure that he would have some work to get him through the winter. What I found interesting is, for one example, they were installing blocking in all of the places we called for it, but they were doing it wrong. They were cutting pieces of teh I joists and just turning tehm around and putting it betwoon teh joists. they did not have teh web stiffening or squash blocks as required.So I was thinking maybe alot of framers with less experience working with teh stuff are treating it like regular dimensional. lumber and expecting it in principal to work the same way. But it does not. So again, I was just wondering what everyones comfort level was in working with those products and whether or not they would like to see more of it speced out, like are you using insulated headers, or has anyone framed an entire house, studs and all, from trussjoist or other?
You mentioned that you think it would serve you well to work in the field for a year or so and I have to agree. I think it would serve all of us well if we had the time to 'cross train' in a good mix of all the professions that our chosen profession effects. I, for one often wish I had a bit of design experience. I can't tell you how many times I'm asked for my opinion on change orders.
I tell them all pretty much the same thing.... I can physically build pretty much anything you can dream up.... but I can't decide for you whether or not you'll like it when it's done. Of course there's some things I've picked up over time with experience. But there's so much that I just can't answer in good faith.
I also agree with you on your point that there are an awful lot of misinformed framers out there. I know of several crews where the actual 'boss' (the guy who sells the job and you think you're hiring) only makes weekly appearances at best. He's got several crews of non-English speaking workers who are minimally trained at best. They work sun-up til sun-down and are working for such low wages that he can afford for them to come in completely screw up a frame and then spend a week or so straightening out to 'good enough'. "Good enough" is all some people want out of their frame, I guess. It's sad... and it's money out of my pocket.
Personally, I've never used some of the product you're talking about. Insulated headers for one. I'm all for it and most of the time I enjoy working with new materials as long I'm made aware of the changes at the bidding stage. I done a few kitchen walls with the LSL studs, but never a whole house. Sure would make for a neat clean frame..... but that stuff ain't light either. My back hurts just thinking about framing a whole house out of it.
The problem with many of the products you are describing is that many of them will only be found in custom homes, and most likely, only even in the customs if they've been specified in the drawings. It's very hard to convince a buyer of a spec house that what's behind the board and plaster is worth the extra $X when from all appearances Toll Bros is offering an extra 500 sqft for the same asking price as you. You would need a truly educated buyer. Now customs are a different story of course.
But from a framer's point of view I'd have to say I'd like to see more and more of the engineered stuff. It makes for a cleaner sounder frame IMO. But I also need to charge accordingly for the installation quirks. Many of them are time consuming and labor intensive. That means that the guys writing the checks need to be up to speed on what to expect as well. If not, I'll always lose the job to the guys installing the stuff to conventional lumber specs while I'm trying to install them correctly. The two proposals will always be apples to oranges until we're all on the same page. That's why I try to seek out educated quality minded GC's to work for and avoid the guys that call and ask "Hey how much you gettin' a square these days?" at all costs.
Another reason I like to see the engineered goods is that the quality of lumber is pretty darn bad if you ask me. It makes it much harder than it has to be to frame a house when all your lineal stock looks like bananas and your rafters have crowns ranging from zero to 3/4"+ over say a 20' span. The planer comes out of the trailer more and more every month.
You Said: "That means that the guys writing the checks need to be up to speed on what to expect as well. If not, I'll always lose the job to the guys installing the stuff to conventional lumber specs while I'm trying to install them correctly. The two proposals will always be apples to oranges until we're all on the same page. That's why I try to seek out educated quality minded GC's to work for and avoid the guys that call and ask "Hey how much you gettin' a square these days?" at all costs"So true. The GC needs to be up to speed with these materials as well as the framer. Otherwise, how can there be any project quality controll. Furthermore, I think most GCs need to scrutinize the bids they are getting from framers on these jobs more closely. It is absolutely unfair that framer A is bidding a job to make it profitable for themself, knowing well the extra time it takes for special conditions which arise from working with engineered lumber, while framer B bids the job based on a per square foot number, cause he knows he'll probably make enough money to get by even after he pays his inexperienced crew that he threw to the wolves their wage, and spends an extra two weeks fixing all their goof ups. Thanks for your input. It's extremely beneficial to me to gain this type of insight.
Our lumber supplier for TrusJoist products purchases through a major wholesaler.
The wholesaler has an house TrusJoist engineering service. They perform the service for free. Give them the plans and they produce a TrusJoist plan and details as required. The plan is well done, easy to read and extends the responsibility to the framer.
We design build and simply atttach the TrusJoist plan to our plans.
It is good to run the plans through this service. I called them today and noted my books are not up to date.
Anyone use fingerjoint lumber? 2 x 6 and 2 x 8 up to 36'
finger joint 2 x 12 structural lumber
http://www.metrolii.com
Metro Lumber Industries / 3200 Gholson Road / Waco, TX 76705
Edited 12/2/2005 7:15 pm ET by txlandlord
Edited 12/2/2005 7:35 pm ET by txlandlord
The plan is well done, easy to read and extends the responsibility to the framer.
Exactly! That plan and information is just one of the tools needed to build the job and it's as important as any hammer or saw. But it's not my responsibility to provide that tool. But as you said, it is my responsibility to use it appropriately.
I was a framer for many years Tennessee and Texas. I know they need all the help they can get.
When I design I desing framer friendly.
If you are a good framer, it is a bummer to have a builder come in and say "Why did you did that?", when there were no details on what was to be done.
I haven't read the other posts yet, so if I'm repeating something already said, I apologize.
We use Rosboro brand I-joists and glulams and the distributor in Tacoma that we use is Cascade lumber. They do the engineering of the floor (with imput from our engineer for seismic stuff) and they provide us with a plan for all the peices. We NEVER have to install webstiffeners or squash blocks. They spec either I-joist blocking or LVL blocking instead and they print the cantilever detail right on the plan for us to follow.
We have underfloor framing inspections now as part of the IRC in our area where the inspector can inspect the floor framing, mudsill, hardware and any interior shearwalls that we may have, although I usually just have the concrete guy (or us if we are the concrete guys on that job) pour footings and stemwalls in the craw in place of the crawl shear wall.
I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that we don't have a choice but to follow the I-joist plan because the inspector checks each peice to make sure it's according to the plan.