Hi,
I have a problem with ther entry door of my house and I cannot figure out how to fix it. It is a Pella metal prehung unit with a transom and sidelights. The door is sagging in the frame so much that the latch will not catch anymore. Not good for the front door. The door frame is square, level, plumb. It seems to me as if the hinges are just not strong enough to hold up the door. I had Pella come out and look at it, but all they would say is it is installed incorrectly (second hand info thru the wife – I couldn’t be there that day). That seems unlikely to me as our house was built by the premier builder in this area. He has an impeccable reputation and many repeat cutomers. Beside, if it is level and square, what could be wrong? The unit/house is 5 years old. I thought about changing the hinges to heavier duty but because of the glass sidelights there really isn’t much material between the glass and the jamb for larger screws. Maybe shim the lower hinge to twist it back? Has anyone seen this problem before? Any ideas on a proper repair? Is it just a low quality unit?
Thank you in advance for your advise,
Tom
Replies
It seems to me that if your frame is square the hinges were not screwed into the structure behind the frame. Is there any damage to the hinges? if not they are not the prob. Have you swung the door and checked to see if the frame went out of plumb?, if so the hinges are screwed to the frame!, bad idea. If you had Pella look at it and they said it was wrong, call them up and ask them to clarify; best that I can do, luck
"if all else fails, read the directions"
If the house is built by the premier builder in the area the odds are good that he will send someone out to fix the hinge for free even after five years if you ask nicely. Old saying is "one happy customer tells two, one dissatisfied customer tells twenty." Call him up, tell him how happy you are with the house but you can't seem to get the front door to close and that rascally Pella dude was absolutely no help. I know I do warrantee work five years and longer after closing for happy customers and charge it to marketing in my books. Grumpy customers are lucky to get a year.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Shelter,
May do this as a last resort. His daughter is one of our neighbors and we have become fairly friendly. Our kids line up in age, 2, 4, 7. The thing is that everyone in the neighborhood always seems to be asking her/her father for something and I don't want to jeapordize the friendship.
Thanks, Tom
Sidelites on the hinge side are a problem. This means that the hinges can't be anchored to the rough framing, and so the entire weight of the door is bearing on the door jamb itself. This will tend to twist the hinge side of the jamb into a slight S shape, imperceptable to the eye but enough to cause the problem you have. You will also notice that the bottom of the door drags on the threshold at the latch end, and the gap above the door is wedge-shaped, larger on the latch side.
To some degree the hinges themselves can be bent to help compensate (there is even a special tool for this), and of course you can shim the bottom hinge out a bit. Occasionally the problem is exacerbated by flimsy hinges, though I wouldn't expect this of Pella.
Dan,
You hit the nail so to speak. The hinge side framing looks to be only 1 2x4 sideways so there is ony 1 3/4 inches of material before the glass. No room for big screws, no rough framing. Maybe this is a low line Pella unit - just seems like a bad design. I was contemplating replacing the metal door with a wooden door at the same time because it has a few dents in it, but with the flimsey jamb I think I will end up with the same problem after some time. For now I think I will fix the dents with Bondo, swap out the hinges for something stonger, hope the screws hold in the 2x4 jamb, and maybe shim a little. If this doesn't work I guess the only thing left to do is reframe the opening and replace the whole unit with something of higher quality. Not really something I can do myself. Sound reasonable?
Note that the hinge screws are likely machine screws, screwed into T-nuts on the back side of the jamb.IMO, the only way for an entrance door with a hinge-side lite to work is if there's steel in the hinge-side jamb. Which is an option, if you care to dissassemble the thing -- take out the lite and fit in place a piece of steel angle, notched into the lite sash or some such. Drill/tap holes in the steel for screws to hold the hinges. Make sure the top of the steel is somehow anchored to the rough framing above, and the bottom either anchored through the sill or with a bearing rod pushing into the rough framing.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Make sure the jambs aren't rotting out on the bottom. I've worked a few where they looked pretty good but as soon as you put pressure on it the paint failed & the wood underneath rotted. In these cases the moisture wicked up from the AL threshold. The rotted jamb base allowed the jamb to settle and cause closing problems.
The seam between the door jambs & side lites is usually covered with trim and given very little consideration regarding longevity (sealing & priming/painting).
Edited 8/4/2007 4:14 pm ET by john7g
Thanks John, I will check that too.
I think Pella does not build a door like that as a unit all at once. Rather everything is in components that they add components as ordered.
That being said, the Pellas's I have installed come with no trim on them and I have noticed that they fasten them to each other with some kind of wide crown staple (like a roofing staple). You can see these fasteners on the inside under the trim between the sidelight and the door. On a rare occasion I have seen that they have missed stapling it properly causing a gap between the two jambs. I have fixed these with a small screw. (countersunk and capped of course.)
You should really get the contractor who built your house to look at it as he would know what to do. I cant really imagine it was hung wrong if the problem is recent.
Disclosure:
I have nothing against Pella, I think they have a fine product. But their reps are another story.
I got called to a job to look at four doors (Pella) that were not working properly. This job was a friend of mine who knew doors were a "thing" for me. He was the contractor. Pella's rep had been there and said they were installed improperly. The rep was thinking that someone else had installed them when in fact Pella's own installers had put it in. When this came to light they said it was the siding sub that moved the doors inadvertently when they laid the siding.
Come on, all four doors, lets get real. And if a vinyl siding installer can do that then they weren't installed right to begin with.
IMO Pella's reps just pass the buck to someone else. I dont think this is company policy but there it is.
My best guess is that Pella designers pushed thru a project that would sell and then not hold up. You could realign an ordinary door by running a 3 inch screw into the farming thru the top hinge. But you can’t do that if you have sidelights.
The only thing I can come up with is to pull the jamb side leaf on the top hinge and bend it in a vise. It shouldn’t take much. Maybe 1/16th at best.
Tom
Could you try a fatter screw? Fill the hole with wood, do not use a putty filler, then predrill for the newer fatter screw and see if that has more "bite" to it.
Sometimes the screws that they provide with the hinges just aren't adequate for the application and a thicker screw will give more holding power. You may have to taper the hinge holes a bit more for a bigger screw so watch for that.
Doug
Edited 8/4/2007 9:45 pm ET by DougU
Like I said, the screws are almost certainly machine screws, run into T-nuts inserted into the back of the jamb.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan, I have never seen a door hinge mounted the way you describe.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Every prehung entry door I've seen has at least two screws per hinge that way.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Edited 8/5/2007 9:25 am by DanH
Well this could certainly be regional or even local as most of the door hanging for entry's (and interiors too I surmise) are done at the local distributor. Pease, Thermatru, stanley/masonite, pella and andersen here are not prep'd that way. It would certainly reduce a chance of pullout and the resultant sag.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
How else do they even manage to ship a pre-hung door without the screws pulling out? (I'm talking about factory prehungs.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
How else do they ship them?
Well, two headed nails driven not all the way through the side jamb and into the edge of the door (near the top and bottom) and two strips of scrap nailed on the int. side edge of the jambs (near top and bottom).A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The ones I've seen (again, these are factory hung) aren't shipped like that. The hinges are mounted as described (leaving 2-3 holes open per hinge for long screws). Generally some sort of metal plate (which you're told to leave attached as a latch hole reenforcement) is attached to the back of the latch hole in the jamb, with a plastic plug through the hole and into the latch hole in the door to hold things closed. A couple of wood braces go from jamb to jamb to hold everything together, but generally there are no other fasteners going into the door.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan, most name doors are slabs delivered to an area distributor that supplies the area business. They do the hanging and prep'ing. Here they will include a jamb reinforcement plate(latch) in a baggie and stapled to the jamb. This T-nut thing is strange to me. Gene used to work for Thermatru, maybe he can shed some light on this, not that it makes a #### bit of difference to the original poster.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Some time check out the prehung units at the local big box and you'll see what I mean.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Next time I pass by I'll take a look.
All my doors come from the yard.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Some of the better doors have adjustable hinges. You use a small allen wrench to adjust. Look on the barrel of the hinge I believe.
Thanks for all of the great ideas. The screws are driven into wood - I believe the jamb is just a 2x4 turned sideways. The hinges are flush to the jamb (even though at least half of them are stripped), no sag or play there. I really think the hinges are bent from the weight of the door. I'll try this - fatter screws, new ball bearing hinges, bondo to fix the dents. If that does not give me satisfactory results I guess there is nothing left but to rebuild the entry. Hate to do that on a 5 y/o house but it has to be right.
Stouter hinges might do it. If the reveal between the door and the frame at the top hinge is bigger than at the bottom hinge...the top hinge is probably sprung. Try swapping top for bottom, or carefully bend the knuckles, on the on the door side top leaf, towards the jamb. You might want to do that in a vise<G> Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
Tom, insert a wonderbar under the strike side of the door just before it is closed and use a block for a fulcrum...then slowly step on the lever to pry the door up until the latch matches the strike (where it's supposed to be)...WATCH the top hinge and jamb as you are doing this..If the hinge knuckles rock but the jamb does not flex, you've probably just got a tweaked hinge. I'd replace them all with high-quality bearing hinges anyway...But..If the jamb noticeably flexes while you are doing this test, the problem is at least partially a door-thrust issue. Meaning, you'd need to do a fix such as DanH suggested (steel flitch plate behind the hinge side jamb). Or lose the side-lite and screw into the framing. In any case, I'd replace the hinges first and see how much that helps.Side thought-- Were these doors/lites built as a single unit, or is the pre-hung door separate from the side lites?
If you have a 2x4 on edge between the hinge jamb and sidelight you really should try running a long hinge screw into the top hinge, on the side closest to the door stop. You need something to stand on and a good cordless drill. Set the torque fairly high and push hard. You should be pleasantly surprised. I’ve fixed the problem you describe more than a couple of times that way, and it only takes five minutes and one screw. All you need is a # 6 or 7 x 2 ½ inch steel screw and some good wood between your hinge and sidelight.
I was taught to always put at least one long screw in at least the top hinge when hanging a door. Maybe your contractor’s door guy didn’t have a long brass finish looking screw on hand. Maybe that’s why the Pella rep faulted the installation.
Try putting a long level on the hinge side of the jamb to see if it is leaning.
If so , pull the casing off the door frame and see if you can re-shim the frame to square it up. It may have not been shimmed to begin with, which seems to be a common practice with some builders.
You have lots of replies but I will add my .02$
The sidelights should not be part of the unit, but separate, with only a 2x4 in between. If you, or your builder, or whomever has the skill, can remove trim pieces in or out to expose the gap that should exist between the door and the 2x4, then you could insert shims behind the hinges to right the door. Replace the 1 or 2 inside screws with longer that will reach into the 2x4--but not the sidelight. If the door and sidelights are hung by nailing flanges only--then cut away portions of the flange at the hinge locations to insert shims.
Then re-insulate--foam, redo the trim and you should be good to go.
I see a lot of Bit&^%$-ing on this site about Pella. I get installation referrals from the local Pella store. The rep is excellent, responsive, and supportive IMHO. Also they will sell me their customer's door at my discount so that I may have a margin of the purchase, which I appreciate.
That and I think their products are perfectly fine quality.
Is there any glass in the door? If so, the glass probably weighs 4-5 x's what the door panel does. I always order ball bearing hinges with my glass doors. A good hinge will be worth it's weight in gold. I have fixed a number of full and 1/2 glass doors over the years like this and it seems to work EVERY the time.
Tom,
Although almost evrybody here thinks that the problem is definately in the hinges, I am still not sure. IIRC, only two posters have made suggestion about how to investigate the issue. I think you should take a good look at the door and make sure it is or is not the hinges. OK, I too think it is a better than 50% chance it's the hinges. But that still leaves 49 other %s.
You didn't say that the latch side top of the door hits the frame. You didn't mention the state of the reveal. You didn't say the door drags on the transom. All those are symtoms of hinge problems.
If you turn the knob to retract the bolt, does the door enter the fram smoothly?
With the door closed, is the reveal very straight and even all the way around?
If you almost close the door and pry it up and down, does it move significantly? Do the hinges wiggle at all? See Pinkos' post #21. does the door side of the hinge move even the tinyest bit in relation to the jamb side?
Are the hinge screws, door and jamb sides, all tight?
With a 6'7" straight edge, with 1/16" to 1/8" standoffs top and bottom, held against the latch side of the hinge side door stop, swing the door thru its' full travel and look for any movement at all.
See john7G's post #5. Check for rotting and swelling at the bottoms of both jambs.
If you find a structural problem, the repair should be obvious. If the hinge side jamb is flexing, replace with Oak or some really strong and stiff lumber. Maybe thin it down 1/8" and have a steel Cee cover fabricated with hinge reliefs and machine threaded screw holes.
If it's the hinges themselves:
If there is any slop in the hinge pin area, the hinges are worn out.
If the jamb side hinge screws are loose, the threads in the wood are mushed.
Since this is a metal door, unless it's wood cored, you can't use a different size or screw hole configuration hinge. Take the replacement hinges to a machine shop and have them massage the jamb side holes to the next larger size screw. Maybe have them add a couple of holes. Use bearinged hinges if you can find them to fit the door.
Carefully drill the jamb screw holes with the proper bit for the replacement screws. Tapered and straight shank take different bits. Do it like a fine cabinet maker. Inject wood hardener into the refreshed and new holes and let it set up before installing.
Finally, buy the largest hinge you can and have the machine shop massage the door side to fit the door. Weld the holes closed, cut down to fit, redrill new holes. Perhaps, weld extensions to the jamb side and add a couple of holes there. Weld a stiffening lip to the inner edge and inset it into the jamb if you do the extensions.
SamT
One quick check to do on the hinges is to see how much dark "graphite" there is on them. (Note that the stuff isn't really graphite but is metal powder from wear in the hinge.) Non-ball-bearing hinges will have a little of this after several years use, but it shouldn't be excessive.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
True, especially on interior hinges.SamT
One other situation I've seen came to mind and thought this was a good place to share it. Since you say that everything is straight & square it probably doesn't apply.
In this case the door would not latch and was getting progressively worse. Closer look showed that there was no flashing at the bottom of the door (or anywhere else after further investigation). The floor deck edge was exposed to the elements and swelled. Swelled enough to lift one side of the jamb and move the door frame out of square. The fix became one big can of worms requiring the door to be pulled to replace the decking. Fortunately the joists were in good enough shape to not require any work. Siding had to be pulled at the bottom corner and across the top of the door to get it correctly flashed.
Tom,
Did you ever figure out what the problem was with your Pella door?
I was just curious if you found a solution. Its good to hear some feedback on these type of problems for a reference on customer service or the quality of different products. I occasionally use Pella doors and windows and havent had any problems or callbacks. ( I dont work for or sell Pella products).
It would be interesting to hear what happened with your door.
Thanks, Gary.