Reposting here from general discussion.
Okay, I need outside arbiters for this one.
I proposed and agreed to install 500+/- T&G nailed down flooring for $1750. The customer purchased the material–very overpriced, but…–before doing so asked me how much to purchase. I said get about 8-10 percent overage, based on my experience with bad boards, waste, a 30 degree bumpout bay, etc, and he ended up buying 546. The job turned out to be about 425 feet total. Pretty
measuring on my part, but I was concerned with odd closets and the angular bump, along with the unknowns of customer supplied product.
The square foot difference is 24%, to give you an idea. I was aiming for 8-10% overage, so he purchased an additional 15% unnessecerily. When I saw that it wasn&
#39;t correct I did A) hid the extra in the truck, B)claimed common house shrinkage, or C) told the owner immediately that I’d over ordered. The answer was C, honest and upfront.
When it came time to wrap up, I looked at the overage, and decided to adjust my price. I subtracted $142 (based on installing 75 ft less) from the install price, and included the base-shoe (change order addition) at no cost. I felt it was worth about $85, and had stated that in writing earlier. I sent an invoice for $1608, and included the base-shoe for free. Again, without prompting, because it was the right thing to do. I used less overage because the wood–terragren bamboo–was very well sorted and defect free.
His reply came in a fax with a spreadsheet atttached. His numbers and his letter attest that 87.5 (yeah, .5) feet of his purchase were in error based on my measure. Fudging a little on the math in his favor, and assuming he could by exact foot rather than by the case, and assuming he wanted 0.0 feet of leftover, I say I’m over about forty feet, not great I know, but
happens.
The reply then stated I was the new owner of this additional bamboo, and he only intends to pay me $1094, and with regard to the flooring, “we can arrange for you to pick them up.”
So, I&
#39;m pissed and way too attached to decide whats fair. I thought I started off pretty damn amicable, but when I got the fax informing me I was to purchase 87.5 feet of his ungodly overpriced flooring, well I lost it. You guys tell me whats fair.
Replies
Your story reminds me of why I always get my wood flooring work done by someone who does it on a furnish-and-install basis.
I think its yet another case of no good deed goes unpunished, but sereously, eat it and say good riddance is the easy route, but each time you do that you die just a little. And this guy was such a ###, too.
Edited 4/19/2005 10:27 am ET by duke
Duke,
"You guys tell me whats fair"
What is fair is for him to pay the amount owed on your contract. Unless you agreed beforehand to buy his extra flooring, that is not going to happen. Be calm, yet firm.
Bill
1. Send him a revised invoice, including the cost of the base shoe change order.
2. Give him credit for the 15 percent unused material. Go get the extra 15 percent. Tell him that his keeping the 8-10 percent extra is to his benefit when (not if) a repair has to be made due to damage.
3. And of course, don't let the customer supply material in the future, unless you have a written understanding on the issue of leftover materials.
I sometimes install light fixtures provided by the client, and on my work order (signed before I start work) and on the invoice, I state that materials supplied by the client are not warranteed. Don't know if this would stand up in court, but ta least they are on notice, if their fixture needs to be removed because of a manufacturers defect, my time to remove will be billed as a new job, not warrantee work. This, of course, because I don't make any markup and profit on client-provided fixtures.
On customer-supplied materials, how would you deal with the situation if the flooring develops a defect, and they claim that it's your installation technique that is the problem?
Duke,
The way I see it is you had a firm contract for $1750 + $85.
At the end of the job you reopened negotiations with an offer of $1608.
He has made a counter offer of $1094.
So negotiations are still open and no price has been set.
Make him a counter-counter offer of $1605 + no lien and see what he does.
Don't forget "along with the unknowns of customer supplied product."
Don't accept any offer below your profit cutoff (The Nut.)
How many Cases is that 15%? How many cases have not been opened?
SamT
Man I'm just a DIYer who used to be married to a part time GC and carpy...but I gotta tell ya:
"What BILL and CAP said!!!!!!!!"
no doubtabout it.
<pizzer this happened to ya, what a shame...but most HO's operate out of IGNORANCE and you guys get stuck dealing with that...so this not likely to be your last travail. May as well figure out your "standard plan of response" now.>
Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
What did the customer agree to?
He agreed to buy the amount of flooring you specified.
He agreed to pay you the amount of labor you specified.
He agreed that the price for both was a fair price to pay for him to get his room floored.
You did the job.
He pays.
So I'm in an uncompromising mood tonight. You got a problem with that?
<g>
Quit being such a dead eye cut when you aren't buying the material.
I always factor in +15-20% and 5% extra is fair when the client is supplying.
Jeeze, you are a nice guy.
Maybe for practice you should send him a bill to read his rediculous fax... you know, practice being a hard ***.
I'd never agree to do piece work- it's just the client/contractor's way of minimizing your profit.
And to cover both ways- extra materials are mine- says so in my contract.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Well, you're at least making me feel a little more in the right here, thanks to all so far.
Ill trade you
your clinet for mine, what you have to eat for what I have to eat
best of luck
What Shredderbabe said.
If I read right, you told him to get 10% over for defects, waste etc and he went and got 15%. Tough shid for him. He bought it, for HIS job.
Dig in, front the guy with the full amount. Most will cave if you dont back up at all. The bastiges are like dogs, they smell fear and uncertainty. If you blink, he gonna want more.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
I definitely agree that your client should pay you every penny. Just because you told him how much to buy doesn't mean you have to pay for all the scraps and leftover. Tell him to stick his fax and his fax machine W A Y U P T H E R E! Now that he has tried to jack you up like this I think you should get medieval on him. No quarter. His fax is the most insanely insulting thing I've heard about at least since last time I read this board. Send him a fax back telling him to pay or be liened, and then ignore all further communication unless it's a check.
In the future do not let people supply materials, ever. You furnish and install. You measure and purchase. You purchase extra. You charge them profit and overhead on that extra before you throw that extra in the dumpster. That's the way it goes.
I just gave a proposal to some folks who want a bath remodel. They initially said they wanted to furnish the plumbing fixtures and the tile. I ignored that and gave them a proposal to furnish it all myself. No way I'm going to have a conversation with someone about leftover tile.
A. I can't understand why you considered his liability as yours. If the wood was short, had more defects, etc, and you had to make an add'l trip to finish the installation, would he have paid you more? I think not. Stop being sympathetic to the situation from the client's perspective. That's not your role.
B. I can't understand why you even considered giving add'l work - the shoe - for free. In your mind you thought you were being nice and hoping for more work. In the client's mind, a) you didn't value your time so why should he and b) nobody works for free, so you must have over charged him from the begining.
News Flash - YOUR money is in HIS pocket and he knows that. and is exploiting your generosity. Why? Because you told him by your actions that it was okay, you're a pushover AND he has nothing to loose.
Wake up. Be firm and resolute. He owns the material - all of it. You don't want any of it. If you had provided the material, you would have ordered the same amount and then factored a % for O&P, so he still saved money.
Grow a pair and stop playing around. This is a business which allows you to provide for you and your family. There are a lot more others, just like this client, out there. Better learn how to deal with them from now. It's cheaper.
Stick to the terms of the original Contract and demand that he honor it. Keep in mind, the orig Contract states the cost of the moulding if requested, so charge him for it. Accept zero liability for the material - zero. If he owns the property, put a lien on it. He may not be selling for a while but he sure won't be able to refinance. Then take him to small claims court.
Frankie
duke.. don't waste any time.... start the lien process.. this guy is never going to pay unless he's forced to..
the materials belong to him.. he can arrange for returns and credit... you did a labor only job..
next time don't offer to give money back, it opened the door.. after you get your money, then you can think about giving some back... Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Since the customer purchased the material, the leftover flooring is his property and responsibility. If he thought he could do a better job on the takeoff, why didn't he do it? This job won't be good for a referal no mater what you do, so why should your family have less food on the table?
If you do end up eating the cost of 87.5 sf of flooring, be sure you take posession of the extra material.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
What Mike said.
Bill him for the originl labor amount. File the lien promptly. Include a demand for interest paid on the overdue amount and warn of serious legal costs that will be added. Also, warn him to seek legal advise immediately. His lawyer will tell him that he's whacko.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
you agreed to do the measuring and that makes you responsible for extreme screw-ups. anyone would expect to have some left-over especially if the floor was all cut up like you say it is. maybe 5 to 10% left over is reasonable. any thing over that is in the screw-up column
So credit him for the 14% overage and then whack him hard on the base-shoe change order
Then advertise in the local paper for the same floor installed in any size room. Order the amount you need on top of what you have already. This time get your measurements straight!
Send him the supplemental bill for all work not billed. "Oops... you missed it in the initial billing", while trying to be nice. Lesson... don't try to be nice... be professional.
Lien him. Small claims court afterward. Lesson.... (all of us have seen it before and will see it in the future)... anyone who figures ".5" ft of material will only be persuaded by a gavel.
He owns the material. If he bought it from someone without a return policy... his loss. You would have sourced from a supplier with a return policy. Lesson... make it known upfront that any customer supplied material is NOT your responsibility, nor your problem.
I work a lot with customers who either have the material or purchase their own. No big deal. I warranty my workmanship... they are responsible for the warranty on their material. I don't install materials that are inferior to my specs.
Each supplier is responsible for their own role. When in doubt, it is the customer's responsibility to acquire a public adjuster's (a public adjuster that we both agree to) opinion for arbitration purposes. They have never had to involve a public adjuster .. as I have always been fair and professional... within acceptable and fair guidelines.... and within parameters that made the acquisition of a public adjuster's opinion more costly than any discrepancy. Of course, the key is to have minimal warranty work in the first place.... but some will inevitably happen.
In this particular case... and I messed up the measurements... I would offer, at max, to absorb any restocking fee that my regular supplier may charge (which my flooring supplier does not charge... but the concept remains) ONLY for the messed up measurements (NOT the standard overage). BUT... I would ONLY offer this if the customer was willing and wanting to resolve in a reasonable fashion. If he is too ignorant to understand the way materials are purchased (by the case)... he is not able to grasp the restocking fee concept. Either he gets educated... or compromise is not possible.
Good luck.
To answer some questions, no the flooring can't go back. You know "money saving" wholesale deal. Standard scam. I'm looking at four cases he thinks I should buy at his price. Here's how I see it. If I provided the materials, and I came uup short, who do you think would be footing the bill for more? If I came up long, you can bet I'd be going home with extra. All part of taking responsibility for your purchases. I bid loose, my fault, so I gave him a break, he wants a hell of a lot more than a break, he wants to get even with the world for paying too much for materials in the first place by screwing me. If you'd seen his fax, you'd want his address so you could drop in after a bad day and just take it out on somebody who deserves it. I think the dollar amount is now less important than vindication, but I've given him til the bell rings 7:00 tonight to call and make things right, after that, I file the lien.Sucks to have to be a jerk, even to a jerk.Thanks for your opinions, Duke.
duke.. naturally, in 30 years in business.. i've met your customer..
he's someone who thinks contractors are to be screwed over..
he does not live by the golden rule..
go get 'em tigerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"but I've given him til the bell rings 7:00 tonight to call and make things right, after that, I file the lien."
Dude (ok..."DUKE") - don't know what time zone you're in (HINT: fill in your profile!) but:
I HOPE YOU STICK BY YOUR GUNS AND DECISION.Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
Additional materials: All additional materials of any nature, relative to the contract work and supplied by the contractor or his affiliates, associates, or subcontractors, will remain the property of the contractor when not used in the project execution.
That should actually say 4 .. as in .. clause number 4.
and with that clause .... it would have been loaded into the van as one of your first options!
No harm ... no foul.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Buck,
Do you have a complete version of your standard contract that you could e-mail?
By the looks of that clause I'd say you're on to something good.
Scott
okay now we are all interested, keep us posted. Sounds like you are doing the right thing.One point to make: When giving costomers breaks, ALLWAYS wright it on the invoice so they know. I think alot of people get excited about work to be done on their house and even if they know how much it will cost, it feels expensive when they havto sign the check. then they look for somthing that you(the contractor) did wrong.. Dont let them find anything, only let them see the "extra's" (free of charge) on your invoice, and the obvious pride in your work.(I allways do somthing extra just to have it on the bill, doesent need to take much time to do)______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
My first impulse in these situations is always "Set the house afire and shoot him as he runs out."
But, as cooler heads should prevail, make him pay you what he owes you. If he won't, sue him in small claims court - not expensive or complicated.
What has been your experience in small claims court, when working without a signed contract or signed change orders, in getting your unpaid bills paid in full?
Sorry I'm so long in replying, I had a reply ready to send yesterday and we had a power blip. Bye-bye reply.
Never been a party in small claims court but I used to be a lawyer. In a situation like this the fact that Duke did the work is undisputed. The fact that Customer bought the materials is undisputed. Small claims is about fundamental fairness, and a judge might well decide Duke is entitled to the fair market value of his work. Plus, the judge is entitled to assess the demeanor of the parties; if Duke comes off as honest, hard-working tradesman and Customer comes off as a Richard-head, that could well swing the judge further in Duke's direction.
But I would press the guy first, and only start to mutter darkly about "legal action" if he's really intransigent. My guess is he'll cave before then.
the change order--installation of base shoe--was unsigned, but it was included in a fax that required reply, and agreeded to. It only amounted to $85, a price I could gladly eat to be done with him.
The orig. contract was signed for the dollar amount ($1750) to perform the job of installing the material to manuf. specs in named rooms (all areas except kitchen). So, I had the paper to back me up, but what's a day of time off work to p1ss and moan in small claims court worth?
Sometimes it's the principle of the thing.
But it's up to you to decide.you probably look like your DadI look like heck
So anyways, long story short, I charged him full ticket (1750) said goodbye to the unwritten $85 in change for the base-shoe, and split the overage on materials. I basically took the high road, but told him he can't have his cake and eat it too, with regard to shorting me contract price and trying to stick me with the leftovers too. Lost just short of $400, and I figure I'm busy enough that earning it on the day I'da been in court won't be too hard. Thanks for the support.Duke Davis, DCG
Seattle, WA Oh yeah, and if you get a call from a guy named Eric Olson, on 15th and Spring around Capitol Hill, hang up.
So anyways, long story short, I charged him full ticket (1750) said goodbye to the unwritten $85 in change for the base-shoe, and split the overage on materials.
I basically took the high road, but told him he can't have his cake and eat it too, with regard to shorting me contract price and trying to stick me with the leftovers too. Lost just short of $400, and I figure I'm busy enough that earning it on the day I'da been in court won't be too hard.
Probably the most sensible decision. IMO the agita you get from being in court is worth a lot more that 400 bucks.
I worked for a GC a few years ago who did a job for a lawyers wife, she was involved, the husband just wrote the checks. she was slow making decisions, the contract had allowances for fixtures tile etc and the home owners didn.t have all the decisions made as to details etc, flooring paint colors etc. I was foreman and sometimes the crew only had work for 1/2 a day because of stuff not there. the GC lost 20 k on the job. the home owner decided she wanted to use her subs and decorator who were late and slid the schedule. then didn't want to pay for the delay's and extras. then the lawyer husband got into it. Have the material spec'ed before you start and a change order clause with pricing and delay clause in your contract. If the home owner wants to get involved do a time and materials contract with them responsible for al materials and your hourly rate including p & O and a factor for the dalay they will cause you. I later worked on schools where everything was on a material spec list so that wasn't a problem, the prints were 125 24 x 36 in size pages and i had 120 change orders when i didn' have all the concrete poured. even though they started with cad drawings the arc and struct eng didn't keep up with the changes. different dim on related pages, windows not fitting between steel posts installed per steel fab drawing etc etc. the contractor got a quick 500k just from my change orders and discrepency reports. automatic $300 per change order processing fee then time and materials at the cost plus rate.
when you try to be a nice guy you get screwed over. get your contract amount remember you are going to underbid some jobs and your customer will hold you to your contract.
Lesson learned, if you are bidding just labor, tell him to do his own estimate for flooring or charge for the take-off. What a dead beat.
Go to work and make money tommorrow.
During your coffee break, file small claims and haul his smart a$$ up in front of a judge.
Watch him explain contract law to a judge.
enjoy............and never repeat.
Duke,
Be strong, get tough, listen to these guys, and tell "Snapperhead" that the next half
a foot he gets stuck with will be right in his ###!!
-I LOVE THIS FORUM!-
bump,
update?
______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
He owes you $1608 (since you have already sent a revised bill to that effect) plus the cost of the base shoe install change order...period. The overage on the flooring is his problem to deal with, although, as Blue mentioned, you might at some point compromise by offering to pay the restocking fee on it. Once you pick up the flooring I would guess you have a legal "agreement" that you accept the fact that it belongs to you...not a good thing.
In the meantime you should be filing a lien and advising him that all attendant legal costs will be a part of the lien payoff before it is satisfied.
Go "Darth Vader" on him...lift him off the floor by his throat!!!...figuratively, of course. :-)