Hi all
I have a question here regarding my inlaws.
I’ve been doing alot of work for them.
Their not poor, in their 80’s, and really can’t do alot for themselves.
Usually they reinburse me for materials, etc.
They keep asking me how much they owe me for my time, and I usually tell them to forget it or ask for a few bucks to cover some running around.
They want to pay me for the recent stuff I did.
My wife says that they would need to pay a carpenter/handyman if they had to hire one to do all the stuff I’ve done, so I should charge them for my time.
What is the right thing to do?
Charge them a little less? Forget it? Or ask for the full amount?
I kind of feel funny here.
Jeff
Replies
jeff, For me it is easy. I don't bill my mother in law. Would never even cross my mind. However, the volume of work is not great. I look on it more like "chores". One day jobs, no way. An addition, window replacement, a kitchen.........I suppose my thinking might change. Never had the opportunity.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
1st time they ask: Nothing. It's my pleasure.
2nd time they ask: $1 plus a cup of coffee.
3rd tme they ask: Whatever you want.
4th time they ask: That was a $10 job
that's when they stop asking.
Good one. DanT
A couple of thoughts come to mind.
I'd absolutely NEVER bill my parents for anything, as they've done a great deal for us over many years.
DW's parents have done absolutely NOTHING for us, so I wouldn't have a problem billing them for anything significant I might do. (But they've never asked)
I probably still wouldn't bill DW's parents if they asked for something that didn't take away from my regular work.
DW's parents have done absolutely NOTHING for us, so I wouldn't have a problem billing them for anything significant I might do. (But they've never asked)
that makes us brothers-in-law!
They may not be paying you in cash, but do they pay you in kind - taking care of your kids, loaned you money for your first house down payment...
These jobs you do for them, are they 2 week jobs where you aren't making money somewhere else or are they 2 hr projects on a Sat/ Sun or evening? Fixing a leaky faucet or installing a 900 sqft Ipe deck with 3 levels?
Do they dote on you while you are there - feeding you incredible lunches or leave you a To Do List and head for the golf course?
Do you feel they are taking advantage of you and only call you when they need something?
Many variables.
Most important - how do you sleep at night? Would that change if you started billing them?
F
I guess I lucked out. When my FIL asked for some work, he insisted on paying my regular rate,not the family discount.I disregarded his wishes for a while, but eventually caved in(cue the violins). I do a fair amount of work for him and he appreciates my work and pays me within 10 days. I cut him a break where ever I can, but he knows what my time is worth, and wants to make sure I feed his grandkids.We both are able to separate the personal from the professional, and are able to enjoy each others company at family gigs. I consider myself blessed.
Stash
Stach, I agree with your FIL's approach.
There's acouple of angles to consider.
1) If they don't pay you your full professional rate, less a coutesy discount, then they'll feel funny asking you to do things, if they are conscientious people at all. They don't want to feel like TAKERS, but they need/want things done.
2)If they have the ability to pay, then it seems illogical to think that they shouldn't. For instance, my brother works in the auto industry. He didn't want to paint his trim. I trimmed his house in aluminum. He payed me the going rate, less 10%.
Is this fair? Well, I need a truck. Will he give me a truck free because he works in the auto industry?
I love my brother as much as I love anyone in the world. I would be hurt if he didn't let me trim his house. I put a lot of extra effort into his job, probably more than I would do for most people. I got paid a little, because my family has to eat too.
I don't see the conflict.
I used to pay my sister to do my accounting. She treated me like she was doing me a favor and always got to my stuff last. I was paying full rates and didn't want a discount. I just wanted full professional services and I'm willing to pay my fair share. I had to fire her.
I would never ask my kids or in laws to do something for me without paying a fair market rate, unless I was needy. I'd then treat it like a loan and figure a way to pay them back.
Mom's in laws are a tough call. It's okay to work for them, but when they offer to pay, I'd let them decide what is fair.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Hi allAll great thuoghts.A few things for thought.We don't have kids and I paid for our house, so that's not in the equation.When they moved, I went down and helped everyday to get it finished.The fellow who works with me helped me renovate their new place and all the major projects. Anytime he helps, I have him get paid and re-inbursed for materials.I'll drive them back and forth to trains, city, whatever they need. Sometimes this takes a whole day.Of course, they never let me pay for dinner or fuel, whatever.Right now, I'm laid up and can't help them.George, who works with me, is doing all the projects they need done and billing them (a reduced rate, of course.)Whenever I've told them not to worry about re-inburseing me, they do anyway and usually overpay.If I ask for ####few dollars back on stuff they owe me, I'll usually be way below what the actual price is. I'd probably bill them less per hour then I'd normally charge and less hours.If this helps in the thinking, please include it.Still trying to decid what to do.Jeff
The fact that you're laid up make a difference to me - Particularly if you're having financial trouble. You didn't mention how much they've helped YOU in the past. That would also make a difference.
Women over 50 don't have babies because they would put them down and forget where they left them.
BossI really wasn't getting into my medical problems, because it had little to do with the actual question.I've recently had a stroke, which has laid me up for the next few months.Financially, I'm ok. I have no loans, mortagages, credit cards, etc. that I owe. I'm a kind of spend only what I have if possible.Inlaws haven't really helped me out with any real expenses, and I don't expect to ask or need help.I've always tried my best to help them when they've needed it.This question has come up a few times when I've done alot for them and I just wanted to try to settle it in my mind more then anything.I really would rather not ask for anything for my time, but they always insist.Jeff
Jeff, when my Mom needed a new dryer outlet run at her place of business, she called me. She would have normally called her electrician, who would have sent out a guy and charged her $75 for the hour they were there. Instead, I went down and she gave me $50. Two reasons for this. One, because I'm cheaper. Second and most importantly, because she can. She has the money to pay someone else, but she'd rather help me out when she can. If your in-laws offered, it's because they want to.
My MIL is a saint- I'd rather live with her than my own mom ( both dads are dead)
whenever we take my MIL out to dinner, she insists on paying, even tho we are much better off financially than her. She gets mad at me when I can get the check before her; no small feat, I might add.
I would love the opportunity to do some work for her, to start paying her back for all the kindnesses she's shown me over the years.
But she just won't let me when we're visiting ( we live in NJ, my MIL is in Mi ) If I was closer, I'd do more.
"I've recently had a stroke, which has laid me up for the next few months.
Financially, I'm ok. I have no loans, mortagages, credit cards, etc. that I owe. I'm a kind of spend only what I have if possible."
When that and more happened to me , I shared it with everyone here .
When did this happen and how are you now ?
Timothy
Timothy
Had the stroke about 2 weeks ago.
Scared the hell out of me and my wife.
No warning, nothing.
Got up from sitting to see a friend out and discovered I'd lost my right leg and arm.
Spent 3 days in the hospital.
I'm home now recovering and getting Physical Therapy.
Lucky I could go home and not a nursing home.
I'm able to get around and just started to use my right again.
All slow and uncoordinated, no dexterity.
Dr expects a full recovery in 2 or 3 months.
Puts the plans for work and stuff out the window.
Had to cancel just about everything and now things are on hold till I know what I can do and what my limitations will be.
Thanks for the thought.
Jeff
When I had mine, I couldnt use my left arm amd hand. Messed my memory up big time . Its a heck of a feeling to be able to do anything you want to and then be sitting at home not able to take the trash out. Not know if you will be able to return to work and at what capacity. They didnt give me a diagnosis of going back to work. So that was pretty scary. Took three months before I could sign my name legible.
Timothy
Sorry to hear about your stroke. Hope you heal quickly and get back at it.
If you cross poison ivy with four-leaf clovers maybe you'll get a rash of good luck?
I think its been said and more but there are some good ideas and views.
Heres the deal. My wife would do anything for me and while I was sick she did . She stayed two weeks straight 100 miles from home in a hospital and never left me and cried over me when she saw me hooked up to tubes and needles. She covers me when Id like to be covered such as all book work and stuff like that. I rarely ask her for anything that she isnt already doing or offering . She backs me 100 percent all the time. If my family comes , she plays cook , maid and hostess. This could get really lengthy.
What ever she wants from me I try to do it unless she gets crazy like taking the trash out during a ball game . <G> If she wants something done it gets done . I had to learn that as my family is not like that . Fatherinlaw or Motherinlaw will do any thing I ask, but I wont ask often. Hes a welder and Im not . I dont pay for welding. He doesnt pay me for any thing I can do for him which is more by far.DW would do anything she could for them and does quite a bit . Shes paid a 200 thousand life insurance policy on her dad for her mom for the last 15 years. She just paid for one of them a trip to Ireland. Shes probably out 5 thousand or more a year in money from her heart to them. Motherinlaw will cook us anything we want any time. Her dad gets called when I need a third hand and hes never complained . He always shows up with his coffee thermos to stay all day. I always buy his lunch. Ive done a lot for him.
If my wife wanted me to build them an addition , Id ask where they want it . She would have final say over somthing big.
You are lucky to be in such a great family.
Jon Blakemore
"You are lucky to be in such a great family."
Jon , I think so too. The biggest gift to me is to witness the love and sharing that they do daily. Its helped me in self improvement and Ive got a long way to go considering my roots. My Father always paid for anything done for him and I say that to his credit , but it usually was personal gain in the process. Thats fair and square, but it lacks the daily kindness of the inlaw family. My Motherinlaw will call me to talk to me and then hang up not asking to talk to her daughter sometimes . That still blows me away!
Timothy
My mother inlaw insists on paying me. Im not happy with it because she does do an awful lot for us.
But i take her money because we both agree that one: she's going to pay someone
Two: might as well be me
Three: Keeps me honest, I'll actually show up and give her prioity. Rather than put her on the bottom of the list as a :: when i get around to it jobs ::
Four: She see's we struggle and that money is important.
Yeah if i had it my way.. i wouldnt accept any money. maybe for materials but for my labor? no way.
But i dont want the rath of the mother inlaw to come down on me. I'll accept her money. It pays the bills
My mother inlaw insists on paying me. Im not happy with it because she does do an awful lot for us.
It's funny how these two things always go hand in hand. When people are givers, they give no matter what it is. When they are takers. they just take and take and take.
My MIL used to call me for every itty bitty tiny friggin quasi-legal question. My response was, "what do you think people would do if they didn't have a lawyer for a son in law." She finally got the message, after about 20 years, and stopped bothering me.
She's never offered a dime, not that I would ask or take it. But at the same time, I've put two of my wife's siblings through college, bought the in laws cars for 25 years, and just generally paid for everything whenever we're together. Her theory is that I've got money and no one else in her family does, so I should pay for everything. Now I don't mind paying for her that much, even though I can't stand her, since she is my wife's mother, but I cannot stomach paying for my wife's siblings. They will suck every penny they can get from any source they can find it. I've never seen such grubbing losers. There's a reason they don't have a pot to pizz in, and it's just not my problem.
Oh. That turned into a bit of a vent, didn't it?
SHG
They will suck every penny they can get from any source they can find it. I've never seen such grubbing losers. There's a reason they don't have a pot to pizz in, and it's just not my problem
It might not be your problem, but you are part of the problem. You would be called an enabler.
Sometimes the act of giving is actually an act of stealing. When too much is given too freely, it robs the recepient of one of life's most precious gifts; learning and earning one's own way though life.
It sounds like you are generous to a fault.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Edited 3/31/2005 5:53 am ET by blue_eyed_devil
I can't even take credit for being generous. It's actually dw who makes me do it, and we have some major fights about it for that exact reason. I tell her she's an enabler, and she just does that woman thing where she won't argue the point rationally but just insists on it being her way.
She is a total enabler, and can't (or won't) stop it. And again you are right to say that they will never learn to stand on their own 2 feet, or better yet live within their means, or even better yet, take responsibility for their poor choices and start making smarter choices even though they are more difficult, or involve more work and effort, if we continue to feed their sickness.
Hey Blue, come here and have a talk with dw. She won't listen to me.
SHG
I can't help her SG, but maybe a tough love class might.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Thanks guysI also don't know when I'll be able to work, but can hope.Bright side is my handwriting was already illegible, so I guess I won't be mssing much.Jeff
"That turned into a bit of a vent, didn't it?"
No biggie.
We've all vented here a time or 2 about one thing or another.
Everything can be filed under "miscellaneous."
"There's a reason they don't have a pot to pizz in, and it's just not my problem."
Wow ... fess up ... yer a republican, aren't ya?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Just ask them to put you in their will! <G> Just kidding! Whenever I visit my mother and father-in-law, they let us stay at their house, feed usand drive us to and from airport, so if they were to need help, I'd just do it. So far I've offered to help with several things, but ended up painting a plaque that had chipped and adjusting hinges on cupboard doors. But that was probably compenstaed for when they gave me a Rookwood vase I said I liked. (They were "getting rid of" all the nick-nacks in a china cabinet--FIL still brags how he got $40 for a large Rookwood vase that was "just cluttering up the back porch"--every time he does, MIL gives him a look and says, "It was worth a lot more than that!").
Listen to your wife.
My policy is to do little chores for free, the same as you would if you were not in the business, and to do larger jobs (more than a day or two) for your regular rates.
If my brothers-in-law want to help out, everything is for free.
The same policy goes for my own father.
Most people want to feel that they are standing on their own two feet and paying their own way allows them to keep their self-respect. Be grateful that they value that and that they have passed it down to their daughter.
You can never repay your parents for everything that they have done, but what they want most is to spend time with you. Unless they are in financial straits, money is a lot less important to them than time. Every passing day makes me more aware of that.
labor ... either full price or nothing at all.
I'd even supply what ever materials I had in the van.
is your wife at least a half same woman? Sometimes more than we can ask for ... judging by some of my buddies wives ... so consider that payment! They raised ya a good one.
Like Big Cal said ... until it comes to a new addition of full kitchen remodel ....
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Love the Title: Ethical Dilema Billing Inlaws.
What's ethical about inlaws?
Just kidding.
Best advice: Do what the DW say to do. You don't need the grief of it being thrown in your face next time you have an argument, even if it's 6 months or a year later.
If you have a problem with her answer, talk it out with her and have her go to mom and dad if it's a significant amount of $.
Griff
I agree with Blue. I'm currently finishing a basement for a relative (my aunt).
I'd love to give her the basement but, This is how I feed my family. I spend as much time on her job as any other and have as much paper work at the end of the day.
I also have a relative who is my accoountant and I pay her full rate.
If its a simple little job, make me dinner but for the larger ones.........sorry gotta charge.
I've been down that same road a time or two. Now, instead of inlaws (all dead), it is friends and family members that are truly in need of my help/work. The wones I work for now are not trying to get something for nothing, nor are they trying to bamboozle me. They just simply need some work done, and need the help. They always insist on paying me "something" for my time and effort. I got to a point where I told them "whatever you want to pay me is fine. I'd get excited over getting a dollar bill, so anything you decide will be perfectly fine with me".
Then leave that decision in their hands, and be happy about whatever amount they give you - whether it is nothing, or a gazillion dollars, or anything in between. Never question it, and never look back. Handling those situations like that has given me more peace of mind than I could ever have hoped for. Plus, they always seem to pay rather well, and keep calling back for more things to be done.
SHG - my ESA (ever so amazing) wife has a LARGE family that is kinda/sorta like your wife. They are all enablers, and they all haven't got the sense God gave a brick. When you put those two items together... well, man ya got some really screwed up people. Their kids are really screwed up because of it too. They call my house all hours of the night and day wanting to talk about their personal problems with their kids and THEIR inlaws. I guess they just need someone to talk to, or maybe they think my wife can magically make their problems go away. I know I can make their problems go away pretty quick - hang up the stinking phone!
Just my humble opinion...James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
Hi all
A little follow-up.
My father-in-law knows me too well.
In the past, I've usually only asked for re-inbursement for materials when they add up to big dollars.
So he knew I wasn't gonna ask for anything again. (I often tell him I'll get to it, and then conveniently forget.)
He sent me a check for probably 4 times what I might have asked .
Can't help but love the in-laws when they do that.
I also have a bad habit of not depositing his checks, but he's wise to that one also, and will keep bugging me, so I guess I get to keep it.
A little aside, George (the fellow who works with me) did all the small jobs for them as fast as they asked and only charged them half his normal rate.
I suspect they knew he was doing that for me.
Needless to say, George and I work great together.
Jeff