Say you are an architect and you’re outfitting a windowless basement room. The owner will warehouse his maid here. This is not code compliant as there is no escape window. So it’s a potentially deadly situation were a fire to arise. You explain to the owner the situation and he does not really give a damn – he’ll tell the building inspector its a “study” (wink wink).
So if you’re the architect are you inclined to forget the whole thing or do something more?
m
Replies
if the archy knows it will be used non compliantly, the archy is part of the violation, IMO
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
The archy can only do so much. He has told them what is required.
Now...if he goes ahead and designs the space as anything other than storage, than I would agree...he is part of the violation.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Project is built now. During a site mtg w/ owner the project architect advised the senior architect & owner again re-emphasising what had been an issue in the planning process and the senior architect shrugged his shoulders. The project architect had to leave the meeting for fear he would be fired for saying something inappropriate. Does this code infraction rise to the level of keeping one awake at night? Is it enuff to advise the responsible party (the owner) and be on your way?
Thanks all for your responses. Been away for awhile and its nice to be back & see familiar faces on the forum.
m
I don't think any space capable of occupancy would pass inspectio without 2 point of egress. If this is a finished area, and not a crawl space, the archy might be open to legal problems.
Document, document, document!!!!!!!!!!!!
The secondary egress is either up the stairs or to the garage - both thru intervening spaces. A sleeping room NEEDS a primary emergency egress. Typically in basements this is thru a compliant window to a window well equipped with a ladder etc. to grade.
I appreciate everyone's comments - Thanks again.
m
It should keep the architect awake at night if it is known that the maid will be quartered there. She is most likely going to speak very little English (probably illegal from the sound of this guy), and will be too poor to say no. She won't have a smoke detector because it isn't being properly designed as a bedroom, and she will die if there's a fire.
Not a lawyer or an architect, but as a potential jury member I'd find that architect guilty of manslaughter.
ahhh, office politics ....Such situations are always complex, and the relationship with the supervisor/senior architect (and the supervisor's character) are of key importance.Assuming your account is accurate and complete, I'd say the project architect has probably done all that s/he can. Now, s/he has to cya. Perhaps a friendly memo to the sr architect along the lines of: "I want to follow up because I'm not sure if I was clear in our meeting with xxx about my concern for potential liability for the firm should we design a living space which doesn't meet basic saftey requirements specified in the codes. Please give me a call if you have any questions"cc: the File
cc: [as appropriate]
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Youth and Enthusiasm Are No Match
For Age and Treachery
Does this code infraction rise to the level of keeping one awake at night?
It might keep me up. Ever been in a house fire? I dont know what i'd do if I found out someone died in a basement room that I built knowing it was a sleeping area and knowing there was only one way out.
I'm not even talking about possible legal troubles.
I'm not an architect, but have run into a few of these along life's merry way, and I tell them what the code is. If they tell me it is ultimately for a bedroom, I walk. He wants you to deliberately sidestep the code (wink, wink.) You ready to sleep with the responsibility?
Too many other honest folk out there needing help to waste time with someone who will turn his back on you the instant he's cornered.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Is there an alternate means of egress? (Aside from the main entrance to the basement, obviously.)
So long as there is another means of exiting, I don't know that a window would be required.
Maids quarters, study, playroom, laundry room......if its a finished space, it will require egress no matter what its called. The inspector will point this out at the time of plans approval. Certainly won't get a C of O on a finished space that doesn't meet code requirements.
If I were you, I'd make sure that the plans clearly stated the intentions of the room. Covering yourself with "unfinished storage".
HOs are going to use it for whatever they want, long after you and the inspector are gone.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
A bedroom requires an egress window.When safety and life arre concerned I draw the line.If my contractrual arrangeemnt were to design only, I would design it with the egress added. I would not have a relationship with him that included building or supervising the construction.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I may have misunderstood the original question.
If he's being asked to design a space that will include everything except an egress....than no.....he should not get involved.
I was thinking more along the lines of, the architect designing a storage area that may at some point be turned into living quarters for a maid.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I
C
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Agree
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So if you're the architect are you inclined to forget the whole thing or do something more?
Uhm, typically I ask for all the billables to date and tell him he needs a different (sort of) licensed individual (restraining impulses to suggest which sorts).
The probability that a customer wanting you to 'wink' past a legal requirement might also want to "wink" about paying all his bills is just as significant as colluding, before the fact, to contravene reasonably known rules.
Agreed on the getting paid part. I got screwed on a job once when I didn't listen to that inner voice and the owner had a couple of minor ethical quirks. Now If I don't like something I just walk.
I had a similar issue in a commercial building with egress...damn fool thing about it was that the building was going to be the office of the architect designing the project.
Chris
on the getting paid part.
Yep. If our presumed paragon of virtue decides you're billing too much, and you went along with his harebrained scheme after objecting to it, he'll hold that over you while telling you to lump it for the rest of the fee . . .
Only good news is that these sorts of donkeyclowns' reputations typically precede them, so getting a negative "rep" for firing them is usually no net loss (and much better than being in the "oh, you were burned too" club).
Don't ask me how I know [lalalalala] I said don't ask, really, [lalalalala], see it's a silly song on the bubblegum-top40 country chart radio stations [lalalalala] . . . <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Let's say you are the Architect inquestion here. Aside from egress, how many other code violations do you know will exist in the "study"? Would you want you mother staying there?
If you have any semblence of professional standards, the question doesn't even need to be asked. Personally, this is one I would refuse.
I've walked away from that type of job. If you tell me that i'm building juniors bedroom, your next sentence better be "and the egress window guy will be out on....".
I've kindly explained to people that a fire may never happen in their home but if it does it wont be on my conscience if your kid get fried. Conversely i've heard of other contractors who tell the people that the window is a waste of money and not to worry about it.
Guess i'd rather pump gas for a living than kill someone to save 3 grand.
Personal opinion - I would not feel good about it knowning that my work has put someone into a potential deadly situation. Forget code - It is just plain not right!
Code differs from place to place and some may require a form of exit - window, another stairway up or out..
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
From a practical standpoint this sort of thing is done all the time, after the fact. I'm sure, eg, that lots of teens live in windowless basement rooms (and wouldn't have it any other way). This is, however, not to say that it's OK.
About all you can do is make notations on any drawings that the room is not a legal bedroom. And then never take a job from that guy again.
This is right from the AIA code of ethics:
Rule 2.105 If, in the course of their work on a project, the Members become aware of a decision taken by their employer or client which violates any law or regulation and which will, in the Members’ judgment, materially affect adversely the safety to the public of the finished project, the Members shall:
(a) advise their employer or client against the decision,
(b) refuse to consent to the decision, and
(c) report the decision to the local building inspector or other public official charged with the enforcement of the applicable laws and regulations, unless the Members are able to cause the matter to be satisfactorily resolved by other means.
Commentary: This rule extends only to violations of the building laws that threaten the public safety. The obligation under this rule applies only to the safety of the finished project, an obligation coextensive with the usual undertaking of an architect.
what about the underground house dude, how would you do that type of bedroom.
Devils advocate.....
you could design the room with the window like it should be, even go so far as to make note of the requirement for it.
then leave it on his shoulders, of couse if he's getting inspected then it that won't work, 'cuz he won't pass.
anyway...I'd probably find someone who cares to design stuff for :)
There is a word for this...SLAVERY. Were I on the jury, I would support any action taken to support freeing a slave (wink, wink).
Seriously, you need to have a long chat with the authorities about this creep.
I experianced just the opposite with an architect one time.
She deigned a bedroom window to match the bathroom window next to it and it would have been to small for egress.The window rep pointed out to me and I told the architect and she said she never heard of such a thing and told me to do it as planned.Which I replied that the HO six grand kids would be sleeping in that room and there would be no way I could have that on my conscience.She came back with how she could get a variance and I at that point said we should let the HO decide.
That architect and I butted heads so many times that the HO finally fired her.
The irony of the whole deal was I was looking forward to working with an architect with the expectation of learning a great bit and my education was that of mediator.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
grand kids would be sleeping in that room
AMEN
Sons house is only 4 BR with 4 kids, so 2 g'sons are together and with GD turning teen always now gets own room. There are additionally 4 150 sq ft basement rooms without any window egress. Son blocked the doors on those rooms with the gsons inside, told them if they could get out anyway they could in 3 minutes they could sleep there otherwise not. Guess who still share a bedroom. Son also holds yearly fire drill where the basement BR dweller has to climb on a dresser and egress the basement window in the one basement BR before furniture can be rearranged.
The GKs take turns, maybe will build an ADU (alternate dwelling unit) on the property for a 5th BR next year for them. Offered to put a floor over the 20 ft ceiling foyer/entrance and put a BR over that, but no go there. - style???
Agree withthe post on 'slavery' also, sounds like a really bozo client.
I'd definetely bail out (even of the archy firm if needed), would go to authorities if arcy firm did not back me up.