What’s the criteria for evaluating a paint job?
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I’m building a new home and have had no problems so far. The GC is very detail oriented and has done very nice work. The interior was painted this week by the subs and we are unhappy with the results.
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It appears that the paint crew had wildly differing paint techniques, some rooms have sags, some have the primer showing through. There are numerous spots 3/16†in diameter where the prime shows through. Some walls have a sheen, some are dull. The corners appear to be painted with a pad and the texture is dull compared to the texture left by the roller.
The GC say the painters told him they sprayed 1 coat of prime (Sherwin-Williams Harmony) then rolled two coats of a light tan (Sherwin-Williams Duration Satin). We opted for the higher priced paint as my wife is allergic to the cheaper stuff.
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We are also told that the 16†rollers they use may miss some slight dips but is the preferred method as the larger rollers won’t leave as many edge marks as the smaller ones. Edge marks from the rollers are the one thing we didn’t find. Personally, I don’t care what they use to apply the paint if the finished product is OK. The GC agrees that the M. Bedroom and <!—-><!—-> <!—->Bath<!—-><!—-> may be shy a coat and that it should be recoated
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So how far away from the wall should we stand to evaluate the paint quality with a good light? Arms length? Six foot?
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Any way to tell how many coats were applied?
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Is it likely that a second coat would miss the same spots as the first coat?
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Are corners cut in then rolled or just painted with a pad?
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The wife and I spent 2 hours ‘tagging’ the flaws on the main floor (1600 SF).
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Monday morning will be very interesting.
Replies
What you're describing sounds like a very amateurish paint job. A good paint job should still look good if you stand a few inches away and should look good under any lighting condition.
Sags in the paint are totally unacceptable. Get them removed now, even if it means stripping the paint off the wall. Otherwise you will be living with them forever.
Rollers won't reach all the way into the corner so if the last 1/2" had a very slightly different texture, I would find that acceptable, but it should require very careful scrutiny to notice it. It shouldn't be readily noticed and it certainly shouldn't have a different sheen.
The missed spots are a pretty good clue that only 1 coat was used. It's unlikely to miss the same spot twice. No dip in the wall should be deep enough for the roller to span without touching the wall. If there is, then someone else, like maybe the drywaller, didn't do their job.
I generally use a 9" roller and there are no edge marks at all even with this smaller roller. Preventing lap marks and "ropes" is all in the technique, not in the size of the roller.
Was the same paint used throughout? It's odd that the sheen would be different from one wall to another. Could the way the light hits it be affecting how you interpret sheen?
I don't mean to but in, but I just want to say thanks. These post on this subject is one of the best I have seen. The original poster can now go to his GC well informed.
Unfortunately, many think that painting is something that anyone and everyone can do. True, all of have from time to time repainted a room or two in our own homes. Not true and not the same when done from scratch and on a total house.
The painting contractor is like the icing on a cake. It either enhances or diminishes what has been done before. Unfortunately, because the painter is pretty much the last gut on the job, the GC is trying to cut cost and often goes for the lower/cheaper bid. Also, the painter is often in the position of getting short changed when the GC's funds start running low. You generally (but not always) get what you pay for.
I an not a painter. I'm an old simi-retired design/builder. Painting is probably one of the most subjective parts of the total building process. Like art. It is in the eye of the beholder. It is what the eye is gong to behold for a long time so it is best get it right.
Two thoughts to add re: difference in sheen, first if the paint isn't kept well mixed (like breaking for lunch) sheen can vary. Second, they ran low on paint and tried to "stretch" it.
16" rollers cover more area period. Good technique is the the only tool that eliminates/reduces "ropes".
Be firm, get the job you paid for.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
The wife and I spent 2 hours ‘tagging’ the flaws on the main floor (1600 SF).
Monday morning will be very interesting.
So, how interesting was it?
Monday isn't till tommorow.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
There's one every week...
some weeks have more than one....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
That's why you should never take a day off during the week.
not a pro painter here. But I've painted enough rooms of my own to say what you describe sounds like hack work. Changes in texture at the corner shouldn't be obvious if done right. I'm able to get the roller within 1/2" which will eliminate any changes caused by the tool used to cut in. Being able to see primer past the paint sounds like cheating on the coverage and stretching the material. IMHO and not to slam any reputable painters out there I've found the painting trade to be the hardest to deal with in terms of honesty. Always a million excuses as to why something isn't right and usually none that cut to the truth of the matter, "hey we did a crummy job".
Pads used for corners will leave smooth coat. The rollers they used maybe 3/4" nap, that is, the length of the hairs on the roller. 3/4 will leave rough texture. If the difference is that noticeable, they should go over the corners with same nap roller right to the corner. I sometimes paint with rollers right to the corner, within 1/8 or touching the other side. I can stay away enough so that I can smooth out the marks made on the other side, which aren't many.
Primer may have been sprayed thin. Spraying should have been parallel to the wall, not in an arc. If sprayed in arc, this can leave thin spots and soak through the drywall and joint compound. The GC probably knows the painters failed him on this. You should lean on the GC to get the right finish. If you change your preference, a flat or eggshell finish will show less imperfections. Ridges and bumps should be either scraped and/or repaired with compound and primed and finished.
Since this is new construction, you are in luck. Repairs are fairly easy and you don't have to worry about any adhesion problems. If you go looking for imperfections, you will find many even in a job where everybody were perfectionists. Sag is unacceptable, but a good paint job should not draw attention when you aren't really looking. Hope this helps.
I use a 1" dia, 4" long roller for all of the cut in. Not only for corners, but up against door frames and around switches and the like.Gives it all a texture..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"I use a 1" dia, 4" long roller for all of the cut in. Not only for corners, but up against door frames and around switches and the like."How do you get into corners with a roller? The 1" diameter rollers I have bought all have a little "button" on the end that keeps the roller from reaching into the corner. I use a brush to cut in corners. Takes only a couple of minutes.
BruceT
Bruce,It is easy to find 1" rollers with a closed end that is all nap, no button. Get a 1/2" nap by 6" lambswool and it can handle 3-way corners just fine. I recently used one to paint a whole bathroom (small one) because it was so much more nimble than a roller with a fat core.Bill
Thanks for the tip.BruceT
I always do my cutting in with a brush, and usually with big fat 3 incher. I stipple so there are no brush marks/lines. When I roll I try to get as close as possible to corners/edges. And I make sure to use good paint (like Parker/Devoe) and plenty of it. I'm a carpenter, not a painter.
As the other Bill said. They are commonly available. SW and Lowes has them.I also run a brush in the corner. Often there is a recess or grove that the roller won't cover..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I also run a brush in the corner. Often there is a recess or grove that the roller won't cover.
I agree with that. I always cut in with a brush, and do the corners when I have the brush out, and then use a mini-roller in the corners and close to trim to give a little more clearance for the regular roller. The texture of the mini roller and 1/2 inch nap rollers are close enough. I have never used a painting pad and would not if the wall was getting rolled. To me, some of those painting tools are total gimmicks--I am suprised a "pro" would use a pad.
To the OP, your expectations don't sound unreasonable. Texture and coverage should be consistent. You should not get any argument from the GC on that point.
What is standard paint practice in your areas? Around here, most paint in new construction is sprayed followed by a roller.
I have never used a pad either.But I did a job a couple of months ago that I would probably have used one.It was a basic small bathroom, IIRC about 5x8. And the ceiling went from 10 ft to 16 ft.Cutting in at the ceiling was a pain in more than one way. I think that a pad on pole would have done a better job. And I know that it would have been much better..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I do the same thing Bill. I carry a paint tub/can I make myself, a 2 1/2" cut in ( angled ) brush, and a weenie roller.
I can cut and roll all the trim at the same time without going back to the roller pan.
And my paint jobs are perfect. I say that with some reserve. But there is no comparison really.
Amen.
From what I've seen from "professional" paint jobs, I (and they are probably happy about this) won't use anyone but myself. I'm too picky.
And I'll pick apart my work just as well. If there is any question about sheen, coverage, etc. another coat goes on.
What gets me the most is that transition between the wall and stained trim. I've been known to remove trim and replace it in order to get the cleanest, crispist line.
I do like an earlier suggestion I picked up on this forum about taping:
Lay down a strip of frosted transparent scotch tape first. It turns clear when adhered properly. Any frosted spots will run (just like the blue tape). Then put the blue tape over that to give wider protection. So, yes, I double tape everything.
I'll try the frosted "scotch" tape. It's cheap. I almost never tape though.
>> So how far away from the wall should we stand to evaluate the paint quality with a good light? Arms length? Six foot? << I think that NAHB standards state that walls are supposed to be viewed at a right angle form 6 feet in normal light.
a good job is one that you are pleased with...
had a painter tell me once... he used a 2 coat roller... one coat on the up stroke and second coat on the down stroke... he said it without bat'n an eye... like he'd told it before and someone bit....
even if they got the missed spots on the second pass.... thats still only one coat on those spots... or am i missing something...
good luck... it'd be a shame to be unhappy this late in your game...
p
Sounds pretty bad to me.
My standard is that they have to be better than the job I would do - and I'm pretty picky.
I rarely recommend that people hire the painter through the GC BTW - but rather directly after doing their own interviews/recommendations, etc.
Jeff
I worked for a high end GC who was a stickler for details. Anyway, he gets a big job and uses a new drywall sub. In the cantract it spells out ( he was a stickler ) what kind of finish the drywall was supposed to have.
After the sub is done the GCs super for the job takes a flashlight and a carpenter pencil and goes through the job marking all the defects.
Basically, you don't fix it I'll hire someone who will and back charge you.
sounds like you're owed a third coat. problem is it'll be done by the same crew
if you or the GC did'nt check out this guys work ahead of time then you are going to receive what he thinks is a reasonable quality
I know good painters and bad ones as well. the good ones stand out. the better guys are painting for home designers, decorators and upscale remodelers.
the rest of them are painting new construction where the new owner is going to decorate later any way. the name of the game there is secure a CO as fast as possible.
don't get me wrong, in most cases they all work just as hard. one guy might be set up for high production while the other is known for finesse
Your comments on different quality painters are painters are right on Q. Here is the thing though. The jury is still out...
To all: Don't hire a cheap painter and expect to get excellent work. Further, expect to pay significantly more for eggshell, satin, etc type paint jobs for the exact reasons this home owner is experiencing. Everything comes at a price. It's not just a matter of buying the more expensive paint, it's also a matter of paying for the additional labor to have in applied properly.
In the instance of the OP, there is no real way for us to know what the paint budget is, what kind of house this really is, etc, etc. If it is a $million dollar 4,000 sq ft house then I'm listening. If it's a 2,000 sq ft house with a $190k budget, then I'm just smiling. Of course my figures mean nothing because I have ho idea of going rates or home prices where this person lives - but you get the idea.
Edited 7/22/2008 6:14 am ET by Matt
Lots of opinions here
Lets start out with the fact that it is an 18" roller, not a 16"
There should not be any low spots in the wall that a decent nap (thickness of the pile of the roller) should not cover.
2 coats of a good SW paint should cover unless it is a dark color.
Regardless of whether the painters are hacks, pigs, whatever, it is moot.
The issue is that you should have a quality paint job.
My rule was always standing 3' away from the wall you should see an even consistent wall.
Sags are absolutely not acceptable.
I agree that if you look from a few inches away, you still should not see any holidays (missed areas) but what are you doin with your nose a few inches from the wall.
The corners should be brushed and then the walls rolled to the corners. I have never had a client pick up the difference in sheen from that.
BTW where are you at and what were the conditions when painting?
In retrospect, I would not tag the walls, i would walk it with the builder, point out a few examples as to why I think the paint needs to be re-visited, and then let them do their job. Tagging gives them blinders so they only look at what you tagged.
your advice sounds good to me....
as to the tagging......... most painters, good & bad, hate tagging....
wether done with a pencil or blue tape spots....
either a wall has to be redone or it doesn't.. tagging is just going to pizz people off
we brush cut all corners and edges and roll to the cut and over... the difference in sheen cannot be seen , especially if one is keeping a wet edge
ropes are an indication of not rolling out or bad technique..... it is not a function of wide versus narrow rollerMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yep. When I paint, I do it the same way Mike. (most of the time I call my painter if the job is big enough)
I love 18" rollers because I dont like to paint and I can get a nice job and get it done quickly. Even when the corners dry after brushing, I rarely get any flash or issues at all.
I have had some strange adhesion problems over the years but never flashing problems.
You can evaluate it by not writing the check till you are happy. Any check. No payday. All pay stopped.
Its that simple .
Tim
Edited 7/22/2008 11:00 am by Mooney