We had something happen last night that I’ve been tossing around. I know it’s sometimes hard to get an opinion out of anyone here. (-:
One of the night shift guys gets a call last night. It seems his Sister is in labor. The guy tells the night shift foreman he’s leaving to go to the hospital.
I know what you’re thinking – He is NOT a redneck, and the baby is NOT his. Don’t even go there.
The plant manager and assistant manager were discussing it today when they got in. Is that a good reason for an employee to leave, or not? Would you consider it an excused absence? Or did he walk off the job without a good reason and therefore should be written up?
Despite my thirty years of research into the feminine soul, I have not been able to answer… the great question that has never been answered:
What does a woman want? [Sigmund Freud]
Replies
To me it depends entirely on the employee's history. If he's been around a while, been dependable, shown good judgement, worked hard, etc., then I let it slide.
Boss Hog,
I'd need more info on company policy and the actual employee.
It probably really depends on what the company policy is and how they have treated others in similar situations.
If this guy left his post and did not at least attempt to replace himself, or if his absence greated a huge logistical headache, then he probably should be written up.
I guess it could also come down to the actual person. If he has been a really good employee, always on time, a "no BS" sort of guy, I'd certainly let it slide. If not, well maybe he should be written up.
Need more info,
Tark
Well, I don't know every last detail of the situation. Just the basics.
The employees have been taking advantage of the easy-going manager, and I think they're trying to crack down bit. Don't know about this guy in particular.
We're way behind in production, and everybody in the plant knows it. But the guy just walked off without asking permission. That left one assembly table short of people. And there's no way you're going to call in a replacement guy at 9:00 pm.
It would obviously be different if it had been his Wife. But this was his Sister. And he left as soon as he found out he was in labor. It's not like she was gonna have the thing in the next half hour. (I know it happens, but it generally takes a while)Stages in breaking up: 1. Yelling and chocolate, 2. Replacements, 3. Getting pissed with friends, and 4. Poetry. [Kate Armstrong]
By all means write him up. If he's a dependable worker, one black mark won't hurt him. If you don't write him up, inevitably somewhere down the road you'll have to fire some clown for a similar offense and he'll holler discrimination because Joe Goodguy didn't even get written up for the same thing.
>> We're way behind in production ...
Are you really way behind in production? Or are you maybe way ahead in salesmen's unrealistic promises?
>> But the guy just walked off without asking permission.
Not much point in asking permission if you don't expect to get it. If he had asked permission and been refused and left anyway, then people would be really mad.
>> And there's no way you're going to call in a replacement guy at 9:00 pm.
Why not? Just because it's too close to the end of the shift? Most places I've worked there would have been somebody on first shift who would be happy to come in at 9 o'clock and score some more overtime.
On his side here a little..he MAY be the primary care provider for said sister..is she married or with a SO?
And it is easier to get forgivness than permission, I live that way..LOL
I'd ask for some particulars, and let him know..it is not OK, (if indeed it is NOT ok), and let it be..now if he is one who nuts up all time..is stoner on the job..then he gets an unpaid day to reflect on it, and look for work if he wants to.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I have to agree with most of what you said but,
then he gets an unpaid day to reflect on it, and look for work if he wants to.
Sometimes that's just icing on the cake, I know when I was in school and got kicked out for the usual 3 day suspension, wasn't much of a punishment!
I would have to go by what kind of employee he is.
Doug
Gee Doug, were the back row Joe in school? LOL. I never even got detention, much less a suspension..wasn't a goodie two shoes or anything, I just never got caught! I really hated school, and went so far as in my senior year went on work release ( wait, that was jail) I mean work STUDY..went to school till 10:30 then off to a job..still maintained college prep..ugh.
I really had to work, I bought my mom's house when I was 16, and had real life bills.
I guess if Boss's bosses had to punish him, take a sick day or vacation day away, if any of that is legal.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
And he left as soon as he found out he was in labor. It's not like she was gonna have the thing in the next half hour. (I know it happens, but it generally takes a while)
Boss, it's not like his sister was involved in a car accident.
I would assume your employee has known about his sister's pregnancy for quite awhile. . .as well as her due date.
It was his responsibility to inform your company of the situation. If he wanted to be there, he should have requested time off in advance. These days, OB's are pretty good at determining delivery dates.
Even if the due date was not absolutely firm or it was a high risk pregnancy, he could have sought out other employees willing to cover for him, and then requested the company's approval of said employee(s) in advance. At that point, the company would need to confirm with said employee(s), to ensure their willingness to commit covering for the guy. (I can't tell you how many times I have heard, "But What's-His/Her-Name was supposed to cover my shift!!")
The only exceptions to this would have been if it were a TRUE family emergency. Like if his sister was not due for 3 months, or if either the baby's or his sister's life was at stake.
As long as the individual is telling the truth, I think it is absolutely reasonable for him to be by his sister's side at this stressful time. If the company policy does not address this type of issue, this is the perfect time to start thinking.
>>guy tells the night shift foreman
>>the guy just walked off without asking permission
Wait a minute, Boss, You maybe got conflicting stories there.
What exactly was the conversation between him and the shift foreman. That has to be the pivotal point in deciding this mess. It may be that he had tacit or better permission. The foreman may not have been clear about what was expected or how important the guys presence was.
The guy may have been all flustered that his hospital was at the baby having a sister and the foreman may have been distracted "well, gosh, uh, Joe, I..." "Thanks boss, c-ya"
I dunno, I wazzen dere.
SamT
Sorry id I confused things a bit.
The guy simply told the night foreman he was leaving. He didn't say "Can I leave", he just left. That's why I said he didn't ask permission.
Like Darcy said - He's known about this for a long time. I think he should have told his supervisor that he wanted to be there when his Sister was in labor, rather than just leaving like he did.There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Is his sister hot? That should factor into the decision also.
In that case it comes down to ; Does this guy otherwise fit the corporate culture?
What does this incident say about this guy?
What does he have to say about his situation?
Can he be 'rehabilitated'?
If the corp was not under a deadline now, would there be much of an issue?
Canning him now will really put the screws to him, if in fact he is a care provider for his sister.
How soon do you expect to be in a position to RIF people? Putting him at the top of the list, may be a better solution for all. It will keep him there while you need him, it will give him unemployment bennies, and if he is that worried about his sis, he won't be out of work for long.
If you're going to fire him, don't put it off just because you are back ordered att.
Does the corp have a policy that covers this? Should it? Did that effect his actions?
Last, but most important, how many more sisters, cousins, aunts, nieces, wives, and girlfriends does he have????????????????????????
Meanwhile, back at the war, Pvt Billybob went to see his LT about Leave, Compassionate, Family.
"Hey, LT" he says "I gotta go home. My wife is having a baby!"
"Well, congratulations, private," say the LT as he takes out some paperwork and starts filling it out.
About halfway down the last sheet, he asks " When is the baby due?"
Pvt Billibob proudly exclaims "Nine months after I see Lulubelle!"
SamT
I don't know about the rest of you but.... when that phone call comes from someone close to you...saying that she's gone into labor..... it makes your heart race.... Whether that phone call comes from your brother, sister, wife or daughter doesn't matter one bit.
Walked up to the foreman and said, "I'm leaving?"
I think the boy has got his priorities in order!
And I can also tell you that if I was the foreman or the shift manager, I would have dealt with the short handed situation, got the job done and this wouldn't be the next days topic of discussion for the "nothing better to do's" at the freakin' office water cooler.
Work to live...don't live to work...
Priorities? I got that one. Place I used to work, when I came home from China with my daughter, my boss wouldn't speak to me. He was pizzed that I had to have 3 wks off....so I quit instead. Then he REALLY wouldn't speak to me. Never actually spoke, or asked about my daughter, the whole rest of the time I was there....
Any additional info about your employee? Did he explain why he left in a hurry? Did he make his next shift?
Boss,
Makes me wonder why anybody would want to work for a place that requires an explanation. Out of courtesy he gave one. Unless his position was so vital that other people were imminently dependant on his services, it's not that big a deal. Employees are not (hopefully) children, and management are not their parents.
Jon
"Makes me wonder why anybody would want to work for a place that requires an explanation."
Not sure I follow that one. There's no way you can run a business if the employees are allowed to come and go as they please. There MUST be some sort of limits.
Where to set those limits is obviously the question.The only real way to look younger is not to be born so soon. [Charles Schulz]
I think the way to handle it is to remind the employees that as much notice as possible is preferred; if you have an immediate family member expecting, please let the appropriate people know as much in advance as possible; family emergencies are important, but it helps if the shop management has some notice on non-emergencies... define the expectations, but don't make it into an issue where it seems that this won't be permitted....
"Not sure I follow that one. There's no way you can run a business if the employees are allowed to come and go as they please. There MUST be some sort of limits.
Where to set those limits is obviously the question."
Boss,
When it becomes a problem. Imposing and enforcing strict limits can backfire too, resulting in higher turnover and having to pay higher wages.
Jon
"Not sure I follow that one. There's no way you can run a business if the employees are allowed to come and go as they please. There MUST be some sort of limits."
We have always run our business allowing the employees to come and go as they please. They can have time off whenever they want. Of course, they don't get paid if they don't work and they need to work a forty hour week to live on. We appreciate being told that an employee can't make it in, but sometimes it just doesn't happen. How do you plan on someone being sick?
Yes, sometimes it is a real pain adjusting to an employee's absence, but I would rather have someone there who's heart and soul is in the job, not at home or in the hospital. That's how I would like it for myself and our employees like it too. It is one of those intangible benefits that keep people around for the long haul.
Well at least someone here gets what I was getting at.
Jon
"Any additional info about your employee?
Don't know what you're looking for.
"Did he explain why he left in a hurry?"
No.
"Did he make his next shift?""
Yup.What's worse than have substandard work rejected is having substandard work in print WITH YOUR NAME ON IT.
Obviously the guy was worried for his sister, maybe a little stressed. If I am his boss I would rather this guy take care of business and come back with his head on straight.
if he is a good employee and on time etc i would let it slide--- but telling him so.
you never know family issues--- his sister may of really needed him for one reason or another--- they may be close.
so if he is a good guy--- let it slide...
CAN HIS AZZ!!!
Sorry....somebody had to say it, and Jeff weren`t around.
But ya see what these damn unions have done to us? Ought we be having this discussion at all? The guy left early....dock him and be done with it.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I'm not a boss but if I were I'd let it go.
Guy's got a sister, maybe they're really close, maybe he's the breathing coach guy, who knows.
If the reason he gave was legit, you can't punish the guy IMO.
a job is a job, family is family, which would you put first?
Everyone pays lip service to the idea that family is important, but once anyone actually treats their family as more important, the solution is to can him. The joys of the modern age.
Just write him up, make an issue of it, and make sure that everyone knows the company policy: Screw your family, we own your soul. Now, back to work.
"Everyone pays lip service to the idea that family is important, but once anyone actually treats their family as more important, the solution is to can him. The joys of the modern age.
Just write him up, make an issue of it, and make sure that everyone knows the company policy: Screw your family, we own your soul. Now, back to work."
You nailed it.
sometimes i can't believe my eyes around here..........
in my mind, the fact that he cared enough about his sister to be with her on one of the happiest days of her life is an admirable quality. we get so few chances in life for moments like this that we better learn to take advantage of them and to learn from those that know how to do this. the europeans sure seem to have this figured out.
dock his pay ?
can his azz ?
please let me know where you guys live so that i can come and draw from your big pools of skilled tradespeople that are lined up waiting for you to give them a job.
carpenter in transition
Boss
To me the right thing to have done would have been for him to discuss with the planet manager before walking off, days before, of that possibility before it happened and gotten permission.
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Boss
To me the right thing to have done would have been for him to discuss with the planet manager before walking off...
Don`t you think Wolfowitz is just a little busy to be bothered with this guys personal circumstances?
: )J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
You just sent my mind in a new direction - planet manager - very interesting slip. I am making a list of things to discuss with the planet manager. It will be a long list. Thanks for stimulating an original thought.
Fantastic thread!
There are some folks who get upset becaue laws are "complex."
I think this is a great illustratiuon as to why: look at all of the factors folks here have pointed out which need to be taken into consideration, and for something as simple as this.
Next time folks are cpmplaining about complex laws and those darn lawyers making it too complex: think about this thread, and then think about how you would draft a law covering a range of similar situations where each of the factors raised and questions asked might have different answers.
"There are some folks who get upset becaue laws are "complex."
I think this is a great illustratiuon as to why: look at all of the factors folks here have pointed out which need to be taken into consideration"
Bob,
I've often wondered why when a law is enacted, "the spirit" of law, under which it was created, isn't stated. Be a heck of a lot easier than trying to craft something so complex that takes into account every contingency.
Jon
>>I've often wondered why when a law is enacted, "the spirit" of law, under which it was created, isn't stated.
Good point.
Especially at the Federal level, there is a lot of supporting information courts can look at in interpreting ambiguous sections. The legislative history, for example. The court might look (actually, the parties to the case will encourage the courts to look) at the changes the law went through on its way to getting passed - sometimes changes in the way something is written can give some insight.
Courts might also look at the Congressional record - what did the proponents and opponents say about the bill. Courts do recognize that much of the written record contains "spin" so they look at this stuff pretty skepticly (sp?)
And courts always start with "the plain language of the law." If the meaning is, in fact, clear, then the rest of the stuff isn't relevant.
"Good point.
Especially at the Federal level"
Bob,
Kinda' like the first part of the Second Amendment? LOL???
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,.........."
Jon
I didnt read this entire thread but the family leave act (FLA) signed into law by President Clinton allows to call in to care for a sick family member. Now it could be said that the employee took off to take care of is nephews and nieces while sister was in the hospital and that would be a leagal excuse. I dont know what legal toes the company would be stepping on if the company or boss decided to take some action on this.
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
Edited 5/26/2004 10:08 am ET by RonT
was it a boy or a girl?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I have no idea. Don't really know the guy, so I didn't ask.The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. [Winston Churchill]
I believe you will find that this law would have nothing to do with this situation. It is aimed at circumstances of a longer duration. If the government were to pass a law allowing a worker to walk off the job without prior notice we would be in deep stuff ( as if we were not already).
A life threatening accident would be understandable although just going into labor could be as serious depending on conditions. Just like trying to evaluate bids from afar with little info, proper judging of this case is pretty much impossible without all pertinent info.
I dunno aboput that as I have recieved calls from my kids school and walked over told the boss I have to go my boy is sick. he told me to mark family leave down on the time sheet and away I went. i used it when my wife was sick and I hadtay home and take care of the kids ect.
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
That would be an excellent company policy but as I remember the law when it came out I do not think it went that far. Your boss and company are to be commended. When this came out I felt that it was pretty good except for some smaller companies it would be really unfair. The job has to be done and it is not a problem for an assembly line type operation with many workers doing the same function, turnover would usually take care of the extra hires to fill in. But with one person type jobs is it fair to the replacement who gets up to speed in a hurry and does an equal or better job to be booted when the first worker returns?
In an ideal world there would be room for all who wanted to work and do a good job. Some operations can not afford the company share of continued health benefits during prolonged family leaves. It is sort of like the reserve military rules. I think it is great that people in the Guard and Reserves have protection but the same thing applies. I do not feel that increases and seniority should be required to continue. That does not mean that I feel that they should not continue, just that the decision should be at the company level.
The reserve components used to be a good deal where folks had a good time, made good money, learned good things, and were a backup for the active forces. Times have changed significantly. I have a lot more respect for them now(notwithstanding the current anomaly in Iraq).
I think a family member in labor trumps any job that implements 'write ups'.
thinking if I was "wrote up" for going to be with my sis while she was in labor, the guy that handed it to me would probably have to have it removed.
it's a crock of s hit
if you can't trust your employee to leave for something important then you shouldn't have him working for you. People have lives outside of the factory and yes, life will in fact go on with them gone for a few hours. For an otherwise good employee who shows up on time, doesnt call in sick all the time, I don't see what the big deal is, he obviously has his priorities in order, to bad the office dicks dont seem too.