I was just wondering if anyone had any experience to share, practical or otherwise, with dealing with cigarette odors from neighbors in multiple-unit dwellings.
It’s a matter I’ve gotten pretty keen on, since just about a year ago we had some rich mommy and daddy buy the unit directly below us for their skeezy son to live in.
It seems the kid smokes. A lot. And his friends may very well smoke. So since he moved in, we’ve been assaulted on a pretty regular basis by the retch-inducing smell that infiltrates our unit. On nights such as tonight, our entire home smells like the dirtiest truck-stop bathroom in the world.
I’ve been communicating this problem to the building manager/board president the whole time, but nothing’s come of it. The one and only time he spoke with the downstairs resident, the guy flatly lied and denied ever smoking, and the good ol’ boy daddy later confronted the manager in the parking lot, called him a faggot, and threatened to attack him. Good people.
I can’t take the smell anymore. The culprit has demonstrated that he’s probably unapproachable. I know I haven’t been to keen on knocking on his door. This issue is outside the jurisdiction of the Building and Safety department. Monday I’m going to pursue legal advice.
In the meantime, I’d love to hear what individuals might have to say about this.
Replies
Well, you need to weigh your legal options. It seems to me that they include-
1)Moving
2)Learning to enjoy the smell
There are other options, but they, of course, are illegal because they involve violence or at least severe intimidation
John
From what I've seen so far, there shouldn't be any reason why the owner's association couln't outlaw smoking in individual units if it came to that. If the bylaws can totally forbid dogs, then fer chrissakes it seems like they ought to be able to give themselves the power to deal with this issue.There was just a case in the news about a judge siding with a condo association in Golden, Colorado against a couple that sued when they were forbidden from smoking anywhere on the premesis, including their own patio and the parking lot.That sounds downright draconian, but I think there's actually a hint of something else in between the lines with that case--some other political or personal issues.I'm not particularly keen on forbidding anyone from doing anything--I'm just trying to figure out how to get someone on my side and actually getting something done about this problem.The smell really is awful. It's like we're being haunted by the smelly ghost of some chain-smoking homeless person.
Naturally I don't now the laws that apply in your area, however, as a general principle, it seems unlikely that people could be banned from doing something inside their own home which was not banned at the time that they bought it.
Even if it were legally possible, what would prevent the culprit from complying for a short time, then starting again? How would you, or rather the people who had to enforce the rules, actually catch the culprit breaking them?
It seems to me that you have even if you can get the law on your side in this case, getting the law enforced is virtually hopeless
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
From what I've seen so far, there shouldn't be any reason why the owner's association couln't outlaw smoking in individual units if it came to that. If the bylaws can totally forbid dogs, then fer chrissakes it seems like they ought to be able to give themselves the power to deal with this issue.
and while you're at it, why don't you have them outlaw cooking with garlic or any other spice of strong odor. Of course that also means that you'd be precluded from cooking many types of fish... maybe any kind of meat too as we wouldn’t want to offend the olfactory senses of any potential vegetarians who might find the smell of grilled, broiled, baked, roasted or fried meat to be as wretched as you find the smell of cigarette smoke to be.<!----><!----><!---->
Where does it stop?<!----><!---->
Your focus should be on the sealing of your unit from the units of others to remedy your problem instead of the demand that others do in their homes as you wish to accommodate what you wish to do in your home.<!----><!---->
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Meanwhile, you can try some air filtration within your own abode. I have the little Orek units that are advertised on sunday AM TV. They have an option for adding perfumes as well as filtering what it circulates. I have asthma and burn wood for heat, so they really help me out.
seem like there is something wrong in the design and or maintainance of those units for his air to polute your apartment.
Stay legal first, but there are always the more extreme undercover methods....
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>>seem like there is something wrong in the design and or maintainance of those units for his air to polute your apartment.This is a pretty old school building that was gutted and converted to condos in 1984, but even if it was totally brand new construction, some level of infiltration is unavoidable. How realistic is it to expect dwellings to be hermetically sealed from one another? Plus, we're above him. Heat rises, and the stinky air rises with it.I may very well be wrong, but I can't imagine that air filtration would do much for us. When the smell gets going, it's just everywhere all at once. It would be like trying to filter the air in a smokey bar.I have wondered about adding some ventilation--create a highly positive pressure in our unit so that we're pushing air out instead of taking it in.
I know about stuff rising - like yeast!When I was a roofer, I smelled all kinds of stuff. It was not had to know when the occupants had lit up a joint or a cigarette.but don't dismiss the Orek without trying it. Even if it only takes care of 80%, that can mean the diff between suffering and mildly inconvenienced.
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<When I was a roofer, I smelled all kinds of stuff?>
Isn't that neat?
Another thought I have is when using a heat gun to strip interior woodwork. I fancy that I can smell everything that ever happened in that room.
Forrest - sensitive
Any X-rated smells there, Forrest?
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LOL!
Nah - mainly just cooking, it seems.
Forrest
How about replacing really old suspended ceilings? Decades worth of odiferous crud settled up on top, just waiting to be knocked loose.
It would be like trying to filter the air in a smokey bar
Which can be done. I'll ignore your legal possibilities in lieu of what I'd do in your situatiion. Undestanding, of course, we all make assumptions about you based on what you've written and your decision to live in a condo. DIY isn't the first thing that seems likely.
http://www.exposurescience.org/pub/proceedings/Klepeis_etal_IA02_2B3p4.pdf goes into this in detail. Note the chart showing particle size.
You can buy a .01 micron filter (the finest tobacco smoke particle) and cobble a box to hold an appropriate-sized fan (based on cu ft of your condo) to run all your air through the filter on a frequent basis. We do something similar on our whole-house air system, but to filter all incoming air.
If it turned out you needed fewer air cleansings, put a timer on the contraption. Out-of-a-box air filters I know little of, but the concept's simple.
Better yet would be to provide frequent fresh air changes for your condo, but that involves two vents to the outside. You'd still want to filter your incoming air.
Either plan will be much cheaper than your sale expenses would be. Both would be preferable to me over attempting to find an authority to fix your problem.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I think you could have a test done where they negatively pressurize your unit to find air leaks, then seal those up.
Probably more practical is to get a smoke puffer and check for leaks at the plumbing and electrical penetrations. Check everywhere air is likely to enter.
And try the Orek air purifier, I hear it works pretty well.
Your on top, smoke goes up
He's on bottom, water goes down
If he's gone for awhile and you develope a sewer leak
Sorry might be too much coffee
LOL, you smoke
I chew
don't blow on me
I won't spit on you
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>>Your on top, smoke goes upHe's on bottom, water goes downIf he's gone for awhile and you develope a sewer leak<<Believe me, it's occurred to me many times. In my version of it, there's no reason why he even has to be gone for a while for me to start "leaking" something down on him.
Your association rules should have a clause about residents behavior not infringing on the rightfull enjoyment of the spaces by other residents - or some such wording. It's up to the association board to be the bad guy and enforce these rules (keeping you out of direct line of fire from your skeezy neighbor).
You could have your lawyer cite the exact 'rightfull enjoyment' clause in a sabre rattling letter to the board and force them to act - or at least respond in writing so that you know what you're dealing with. If you have to hire a lawyer to fight the board to fight the the guy below you, well, that'll get pricey pretty quick.
Good luck, -Norm
>>Your association rules should have a clause about residents behavior not infringing on the rightfull enjoyment of the spaces by other residents...The association rules have precisely such a nuisance clause--it's the second item, right there on the front page at the top of the paragraph. Further, there's a structure set up for fining owners for infractions. After a warning, the fines get progressively higher for each subsequent violation of the rules.It's frustrating--if I insisted on playing my stereo incredibly loudly, forcing a neighbor to complain, I would eventually be fined for my carelessness. As for lawyers--since I'm still a student, I may be able to utilize the University's legal assistance program. Their website states that will assist students with landlord/tenant issues--I'll find out if that can be extended to homeowner issues.
Man, I feel for you.
I've been a landlord that tenants call to complain about the next door neighbor's smoke. It can be hard to seal up, but previous posts have covered that pretty well. Do all the sealing that you can
Do you pay your own utilities, or is that included? If included, then positive pressure becomes more inviting to do.
It's a shame that things have turned so sour with the neighbor and his parent. However, you may want to ask for some sympathy from him (bear with me) and explain that you don't want to go through the condo-assoc process and create issues for you both, but that you're at your wits end and have to make some progress with the smell. Ask if you buy him a smoke-eater type machine for his apartment, would he use it? A coupel hundred bucks might go a long way to making th issue disapear. It's counterintuitive to give a total A$$ a present.... but what you want is a RESULT. You get more flies with honey....and all that jazz.
Then buy the Orek or other ionizer/filter machine for your condo as well. We have one and it works good.
Best of luck.Ithaca, NY "10 square miles, surrounded by reality"
When I was a student there was a neighbor who would come home late at night and play his music loud. One morning at about 6 AM I got the idea of getting my microphone out and running some feedback through it. My neighbor never played his music loud again. It only took about one minute to cure him.
If your unit doesn't include any combustion appliances, you can try pressurizing it slightly. Some sort of small fan in a window, blowing in, eg.
It sounds like the smoke is making its way up via air travel rather than simply seeping through materials. Those things drive me absolutely crazy.
If you think along the lines of building a tightly sealed new house there are a number of things that can be done to minimize air making it into your place (or out of, drawing the smoke in). If you have no legal way to force the neighbor to comply, you might offer to have a professional come in and seal air paths in their place. It would save them money in utilities and reduce the smoke rising.
I'd start by using spray foam and caulking around all pipe penetrations into or out of your place. Pipe penetrations going up are creating a vacuum in your floor drawing air up from below.
Then use foam and caulking to seal all outlets, switches and light recepticals. Chances are holes for wires haven't been sealed prior to sheetrock and air is being drawn in from below. When they are smoking, remove the outlet and switch covers and you'll probably find a few that are the worst offenders.
The boxes need to be sealed where the wires enter the boxes and any gaps to sheetrock, which can be quite a chore and dangerous if you don't know much about electricity. Shut off those breakers and use a non-contact voltage detector.
Next, anything that can be removed from a wall cavity should be pulled and any exposed holes or gaps should be caulked or foamed.
If there are specific stud cavities that leak in a lot of smoke due to pipe or wire penetrations, or simply poor framing, consider sealing the lower portion of the stud cavity with foam. Many modern stud finders have a signal for electrical wires so it should be easy to locate where these wires penetrate the bottom wall plate.
Base can be removed to allow a hidden cutout in the sheetrock so those penetrations can be foamed.
Once the walls are sealed up as well as possible, I'd go to the floors. Where baseboard meets a hard floor surface any cracks or gaps should be caulked. Even on staingrade wood, an extremely fine line of clear caulk can be applied that is essentially invisible since only enough is used to fill the crack.
Hardwood floors are difficult to seal because there are hundreds of cracks that can't be sealed. However, if the floor has a great deal of large gaps, a refinish with new filler applied will help.
On carpeted floors I'd pull up the carpet, nail strip and pad, seal any cracks or gaps in the subfloor with caulk or construction adhesive worked into the gap with a putty knife. Even seal nail holes.
A great deal of air will travel between the bottom of the sheetrock and framing, coming out under the base. The nail strips are removed to allow caulking this area.
Then the carpet can be reinstalled.
Check the windows for air leaks and caulk any cracks or gaps.
Check doorways and caulk cracks or gaps.
It's not uncommon for smokers to use bathrooms, smoking with the bathroom fan on. Check to see if your fan shares ductwork. Even if it doesn't, there are some cases where the exhaust of one fan then is drawn into the duct of a shut off fan via faulty one-way flapper. Cheap ceiling fans are nortorious for air leaks back into the house.
Pull vent covers and seal between the duct boot and sheetrock.
Did you have the kitchen exhaust pulled and sealed?
Pull the stove and seal the gas penetration.
Caulk every inch inside and around the cabinets that might be an air path (almost all cracks).
Pull the fridge...you know the drill.
Clean out closets and be complete with the rest of the house. Hey, did I say this would be easy?
Have the cover pulled from the electrical pannel and determine if it needs to be sealed. If you don't know anything about electricity have someone else do this. Wet caulk and electrcity don't mix.
Use your nose and it will show where most of the smoke is coming from. Get a ladder and smell closely up high, and get down low and smell the floor.
Good luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Yeah....I'd rather not do all that. *grin*I have made some effort to seal up obvious leaks, thinking I could perhaps stem the worst of it. Of course it hasn't helped to any noticable degree.A point that was emphasized ad infinitum in my systems engineering classes is that infiltration/exfiltration are just a matter of fact. It doesn't matter how well you construct something, there are still a million microscopic cracks, joints and fissures where air is gonna get through. The weather changes, a building shifts, and a whole slew of new exchange points open up.In the articles on that case in Golden, Colorado, it's pointed out that the neighbors to the smokers tried caulking, filters, insulation, ventilation adjustments and painting, but the odor was still a problem.I can't just up and move. It's not even an option until I'm done with school, which won't be for a couple of years. I could deal with this smell if it was just an occasional problem, but it's gotten to be incessant. It's been bad enough on several occasions that I've actually been awakened by it--it's not just a trivial peeve.I've gone so far as to do down and stand in front of the culprit's door a few times, wanting to knock and confront him. I boxed for three years--if someone called me a faggot, I'd knock him on his #### or get bruised up trying. But I've always stopped myself, fearing that I would just exacerbate the problem.
Edited 1/21/2007 4:29 pm ET by tuffy
> But I've always stopped myself, fearing that I would just exacerbate the problem.Wise. Daddy would have you charged with assault in the wink of an eye. And get a restraining order against you that would make it look like anything you did was in retaliation.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Yeah....I'd rather not do all that. *grin*
Oh. I thought you were looking for a construction solution.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
C'mon, guys! Let's put our thinking caps on and come up with a solution that doesn't involve construction or diplomacy or buying an air filter!...OK, i'm done. You guys?
Et tu, splintergroupie? : )
Edited 1/23/2007 1:32 am ET by tuffy
Me what? I sympathize heartily, but it's a bit far-fetched to ask a bunch of can-do types for help and expect them to go Oprah instead of supplying all the viable alternatives. If you simply wish to vent instead of act, take my hand and come with me to the Tav where they have Guinness on tap and people who know it takes 8 minutes to pour one properly. Better to light a candle than curse the darkness, tuffy. Esp since you'll be seeing double soon, LOL!
Heh. Point recognized and taken into consideration.It's best if I stay out of the Tavern. I chose not to join up when the administrators decided to hide it from general view.
C'mon, guys! Let's put our thinking caps on and come up with a solution that doesn't involve construction or diplomacy or buying an air filter!
Take up smoking.......... :-)Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
I'm feeling the same frustration - three potential solutions met with the responce, "I really don't want to do that"Half the time, in real life, when I run into people with that view, I learn that they really don't want a solution, they want someone to feel sorry for theem, synmpathize, and commiserate. They WANT a reason to complain because they are complainers in need of a cause.I don't know if that fits tuffy, but I'm starting to lean that way
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>>>" I'm feeling the same frustration- three potential solutions met with" I really dont want to do that".<<< Exactly!>>> " They WANT a reason to complain because they are complainers in need of a cause."<<<You are correct- commonly known as whiners.
Edited 1/23/2007 7:02 am ET by wood4rd
Piffen,
"----I am starting to lean that way"
don't beat yourself up over this Piffen, LOL.
the only reason I was able to immediately zero in on that diagnosis-is that I have the advantage of being brought up in an " extended family" of folks like that-so I recognized the symptoms right off.
Believe me- the last 2 days or so-I have been subjected/witness to an extended family tirade RE: a MUCH more serious situation-but with the same result.-AND it's one that has gone on-----off and on for about 12 years now. that is, a serious problem that could have been fairly simply accomodated-if not out right solved 12 years ago-has been arternately ignored and complained about for 12 years-now time has run out-there are no longer any options-and no good solutions--and yet the complaining still goes on and on and on.
Of course- I could be wrong about THIS particular situation-but I think not.
Best wishes,all-stephen
Honestly, my apologies for whatever way I may have miscommunicated or induced frustration.But please observe that the one and only time I stated "I really don't want to do that," was immediatly followed with an indication that it was meant with humor. I absolutely did not mean to disregard or flippantly reject a serious suggestion. Rather, it was my genuine intention to acknowledge the very daunting nature of accepting the suggested solution as perhaps necessary, the sheer gravity of the whole thing, while using an edge of humor and self-mockery. I was, quite simply, trying to be ironic. I suppose the expression of self-deprecation and facetiousness really is a bit much to ask of a few characters of text. I started this thread with an awareness of and respect for the tremendous cumulative range of knowledge, experience and expertise brought to this board. I didn't expect a magic cure for my problem, and I'm sorry if that's how I came across. I just thought that maybe, possibly, perhaps, among all the homeowners, building owners, landlords, property managers, contractors, engineers, inspectors and specialists who contribute here, someone might have butted heads with this issue before.I also thought the issue seemed like something that, with all its facets and complications, could potentially be a genuinely interesting discussion.
Like I said, I was leaning from 50/50. Maybe I misread you. I have noticed the explanation why you haven't spoken to the twit.But both air cleaners/filters and caulk will help somewhat, as will positive pressure ( if it is not drawing it's air from somewhere near his smoking room) Believe me, I am on the side that hates cig smoke, unlike some others who can tke iotr or leave it. I am likely to puke on somebody if they blow smoke in my area - literally, it has happened!But you need to pick a strategy and get going on it. Two pronged, I would find a way - financial or legal to get the condo board to act, and do my part by talking to witless below you, while cleaning things from my end with a filter. Since you are above him and this is an olde building, and the cost of sealing would be high and should be borne by the condo assoc. I would save that for last.
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One point I'm not sure has been mentioned: Make sure that all exhaust fans are turned OFF, and if one must be used (or something like a dryer in the unit used) crack open a nearby window.Also check the unit for any sort of common vent stack for kitchen/bathroom exhaust fans. Especially if the guy is running his fans, it could end up blowing smoke into your unit.Of course, if your unit has its own furnace, and if it draws combustion air from inside the unit, then you're kinda hosed.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
How do you create a positive pressur in your apartment? is there an "appliance" that does this?
It's called a window fan. Blowing in.Or any other sort of fan (eg, a Fantech duct fan), arranged to blow fresh outside air into the building. (Into the furnace return air duct is a good place, if a forced-air furnace is present.) Care needs to be taken to place the intake away from any furnace/dryer exhaust, and away from places where cars may park and idle. Combustion appliances in the building need to be checked to be sure they're "sealed combustion", using outside air, so that the pressure differential won't disturb them.Relatively little air is needed. You're not trying to support the roof of the Metrodome, just create maybe 1/4" of pressure relative to adjacent units. (Sorry, I don't know how to calculate the airflow needed to do this.)Another way to accomplish this is to simply add a passive vent feeding air into the return air duct of a forced air furnace, then run the furnace fan. A slight pressurization of the building will occur.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
heat recovery exchange units can be set up to do this, I've been told. That is a little more energy efficient than a window fan blowing in.I would be sure to investigate whether and where this guys exhaust happens. For instance, if he smokes while in his "library" moree than anyplace else, and uses his bathroom exhaust fan, and it is not properly installed...hew could be dumping aimed at you, or you could inadvetantly be sucking your new fresh air supply right straight off his exhaust pipe.
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first i got to say,i've never smoked and i don't care for the smell at all either .but with that said i think we've beat up on the smokers a lot in the last 5 years.i know there is all this evidence about second hand smoke,but come on most of us baby boomers grew up with parents smoking like chimmineys and were still ok.this guy is in the privacy of his own home,not doing anything illegal and this is the disadvantage of attached dwellings instead of single family structures.everything has it's pluses and minues and this is one of those minues. i would start looking for a way to postive pressure my unit and buy some air cleaners or put the for sale sign out and go where the houses have space between them.as far as i'm concerned he has as many rights as you in a condo unit. go ahead i'm ready to get flamed now!!!!i gotta go now my neighbors dog is barking and i'm going to shut him up. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
U gonna change your tune when neighbors dog #### on your carpet though
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my solution to that would be to load him in the truck ,take to human society and say he was a stray,do you suppose the op would like to load his neighbor up in a truck and take him for a ride?lol i have always apperciatted a good neighbor,they don't have to be perfect ,maybe his grass is to tall,or has a old car in the drive i'm fine with that.we can just wave ,say hi and go on.it is so disappointing to have a neighbor that truly disturbs your world.it can turn your dream house into a nightmare on elm street. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Take up tap dancing At two in the morning. With a name like tuffy I know your not going to go talk to him.
Marbles. If you have a hard floor, you take a BIIIIIG container full of marbles and poor them from about waist-height onto the floor below. At random times. Onmly the people below can hear it and, well, you have NO idea what they're hearing at 3:30AM. Sounds strange to you! Almost as strange as the odors in YOU condo...
I had a problem in college, in "nonsmoking" dorms, with a smoker beneath me. I figured out who it was and shouted loudly outside the door about inconsiderate people smoking. Then, since I was a night owl, I made a particular point of slamming my fist against the door (which made an ENORMOUS noise & probably shook the room) between 2 AM and 6 AM for five night straight after I smelled them do it. I enlisted other people neighbors who also got stuck with the stench to smack the door, too, a random times. They were on the first floow (lots of traffic) and near the stairwell, so they never caught anyone.
And guess what? They got the hint.
Right now, I'm thinking fish...and car...
YES, a person CAN be banned for doing something "legal" in their own home if it interferes with other people.
YES, a person CAN be banned for doing something "legal" in their own home if it interferes with other people.
I'd be interested to hear of a case where this has actually happened, unless you meant it metaphorically and were referring to the case you described
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
Virtually every community has a nuisance ordinance that can, in-effect, do this.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
i am a non smoker-
really-a reformed smoker-a convert-and you know how " over the top" converts can be, LOL.
but in this case I gotta side with the smoker here.
He is minding his own business in his own home---it's the NON-Smoker with the problem.-and it's the Non smoker being unreasonable here-it seems to me.
kind of makes me wish the smoker takes up cigar smoking, LOL
gotta say-lately-like the last 10 years or so--- I have seen a LOT of non-smokers behave more and more rudely towards smokers-really much more rudely than I think I have ever seen smokers behave typically.
and a non-smoker that's a law student???? SHEESH!
Stephen
INCOMING!'scuse me while I hit the deck;)
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Yes, but the OP doesn't have a problem with the smoker's smoke that remains in the smoker's home. It's the smoker's smoke that ends up in the OP's home that is objectionable. It's analogous to not minding any smokers who smoke in public places, as long as they hold their breath. <G>
Have you actually READ any of my posts, or are ya just jumping in? I've never harrassed, bothered, confronted, or said boo to the smoker living below me. I find myself in a difficult position because this individual and his family acted with nothing but unwarrented belligerence the very first time our building manager merely inquired about the smoking. I'm left struggling for any appropriate or diplomatic means of dealing with this problem, and an owner's association that hasn't been motivated to do squat in a whole year.This guy can smoke himself to pulmonary hypertension for all I care--but when I'm ceaselessly assaulted by the odor in my own home, it's no longer just a matter of his personal indulgence. His crap is invading my home--I don't think it's precisely accurate to state that he's just "minding his own business" at this point.Theoretically, I have no problem with someone smoking in their own home. If the smell was only invading my own home on infrequent occasions, I would absolutely cut the neighbor some slack and overlook it. Seriously. But as it is, several nights a week my entire home smells like the dirtiest, grungiest old small-town tavern in the midwest right before closing time. When things really get going, it's inescapable--the smell builds for hours until every single room stinks. Opening windows and running fans only mitigates things at best, and isn't practical when it's 16 degrees out. The smell is enough to disrupt my sleep, and the residue smoke exacerbates my allergies.Tell me, Mr. Reformed Smoker, what resolution would you pursue????SHEESH!
"I've never harrassed, bothered, confronted, or said boo to the smoker living below me. "
Let me get this straight...you have never talked to him about stopping, or taking voluntary measures to mitigate his effect on your life???
If this is actually the case, shame on you. You want a neighbor who's courtious to you....but you're not willing to give him the courtesy to have a chat with him about you concerns before blowing him in to the condo board?
How was this guy to know he was even affecting you until the condo guy came over abouta complaint?
When any of my tenants come to me with a beef about a neighghbor (loud music, smoke, etc....) my first question is "what did they say when you asked them to stop it?" Common courtesy. Common sense.
Sorry to rant. I do feel for your situation.Ithaca, NY "10 square miles, surrounded by reality"
Let's see...Guy moves in, and that very week I start getting surprisingly awful smoke odors in my unit. I shoot an email to the building manager/board president asking if the new guy is an owner or a renter, and what he thinks would be the best thing for me to do. The building manager happens to meet the new owner in the hall later that day while he's doing his rounds, says howdy, and asks about the smoking. The new guy reacts with immediate hostility and flatly lies about the smoking. Later still that same day, new guy and new guy's daddy confront the building manager in the parking lot--daddy introduces himself by telling our manager that he looks like a faggot, and threatens him with violence.Diplomacy and courtesy in action?...Am I terribly wrong, then, for feeling some level of reluctance and doubt about talking to the guy downstairs? I've communicated with neighbors a couple of times before when we were having problems. Some of the owners rent their units out to college kids, so occasionally we get the trivial disturbance. I've done the friendly, polite "Hey, could you keep it down after 10pm?" schtick.If I was reasonably certain that, in the very least, talking to the guy downstairs wouldn't just make things worse that they already are, I'd go down and speak with him. Hell, I'd bake him cookies. If I had some assurance that someone else on the condo board would back me up if things did just go sour, I'd go talk to him.To be clear, I haven't been examining the city building codes and legal aspects of this issue because I want to force the guy to quit smoking. I'm just trying to get a real handle on the issue, and to have some practical awareness of the possible outcomes in the worst possible scenarios.I'm trying to figure out what my rights are in this matter. Concrete? Nonexistent? The smoker's a homeowner--he should have a reasonable right to privacy in his home. I'm a homeowner--I should have a reasonable right to comfort in my home. _However_, we're both owners in a cooperative. It's not the same thing as owning a section of land in Montana--neither of us can just do whatever the hell we want--not if it's affecting other residents. We're not so much owners of discrete private properties as we are co-owners of the same big building. To some degree, his business is my business, and vice-versa. Purchasing a unit in this building means contractually agreeing to a list of rules and regulations. I can't have a dog, no matter how badly I want one and regardless of how well I might train it. I can't play my stereo so loudly that it disturbs my neighbors (nor would I want to).I pay building fees every month--should I be able to expect some assistance from the owner's association in resolving this matter to some degree of satisfaction? If so, what's the best way to motivate someone to finally take some action on my behalf?If I have to make physical changes to my unit to mitigate the odors, should I have to pay for it entirely out of my own pocket? What about the smoker? Would it be fair to require changes to his unit so that the smoke isn't migrating into his neighbors' homes? Wouldn't it be emminently more practical to make changes to his ventilation system so that the smoke is removed from his unit before it even has the chance to pervade everyone elses' homes? Why the hell do I have to do all the work here?I don't know. I was just hoping that in all of the great collective wisdom on this discussion board, a few individuals might have had some practical experience to share. I'm not looking for a single grand solution, I just wanted voices on the matter.
Just my opinion, but I can't think of anything more rude than giving someone cancer.Peace,Caseyhttp://www.streets.org
Just about every single town has laws about interfereing with other people--legal phrases like "public nuisance" cover all sorts of behavior that isn't illegal but is still obnoxious.
These purifiers really work, around 500.00
http://www.alpineairproducts.com/
as much as i'd like to be mad at the kid below... I think i'd follow what many have said on here... seal everything you can... if you have any can lights thats a great place to start... if they were designed to be open... you can usally get away with using the energy saver bulbs (far less heat generated) and gasketed glass lens covers... always start at the top... and work down... every outlet & recip cover... ect..
I believe $20 in spray foam will solve 90% of your problems...
good luck...
some fight just ain't worth fighting if you can fix em ... besides it will save on your elect bills...
p
"if you have any can lights thats a great place to start... if they were designed to be open... you can usally get away with using the energy saver bulbs (far less heat generated) and gasketed glass lens covers... always start at the top... and work down... every outlet & recip cover... ect.."the problem is that it needs to be done to the cans in the lower unit..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Good Luck with that sealing it up bit. I live in a condo and it has a common wall with the neighbor who smokes. I have used several cans of foam and enough caulk to build a new house and it has had almost no effect. In my case the issue was always a bit random so I could live with it but it still happens 6 years down the line. Also the main area I get it (in the basement) was under construction when this started so I could get to all the wall at that point. Did not help. Just for info the wall in pored concrete up to 8' A.f.f. on the first floor and block from their to the roof line in the attic. I even moved two heating vents that went up that wall and filled them with Insulation, caulked around them and sealed them with gyp. pd. that I painted both sides of. So this is an issue that my very well be impossible to stop.
Oh and from what I found out (I was interested but I did not plan to do anything as my neighbor is a nice guy) their is in Michigan pretty much nothing you can do about this. They are talking about putting a law on the books for just this issue. If it ever gets to be law it will lay all responsibility for this on the smoker. And the smoker will have to take action to stop the smoke from getting to their other unit(s) or they smoker will have to stop smoking. But like I said right now this is simply something they are talking about at the state level. I guess they are more concerned with the type of fat used to cook the frys that you buy to eat vs the smoke that your neighbor is forcing on you.
Doug Meyer
Just a common wall and you're having problems? Yikes.I'm almost jealous, though. I'd contentedly accept it if it were a fairly random issue.In my city, they banned smoking in all public spaces. Which means late on a Saturday nigh the air is probably going to be better in any bar or nightclub in town than it is in my own home. : )Sealing my unit off from the guy downstairs...it's...well, it's more than I could undertake anyway. I live in a 1908 school building that was converted to condos in 1984. The interior construction is new, but the floor joists and much of the perimeter stuff are original to the building. There's just a huge amount of open, unblocked, often uninsulated cavity space all around that I don't have ready access to that would have to be closed off.It might even be more realistic for me to consider providing ventilation directly to some of those interstitial spaces, rather than try to seal them off. Hmmm. An idea to toy around with.When I re-tiled my kitchen, I patched up a bad repair to the subfloor. While I had the hole in the floor open, there was actually a continuous blast of air coming out. My whole unit is surrounded by a strong positive pressure rising through the building from below. If there's no way that the smoking will ever be stopped or suppressed, then improvements to my ventilation may be the most fruitful and practical solution to pursue. HRV might not be out of the question. I've got nothing but attic space above, so I'd at least have easy access for duct work.
<<there was actually a continuous blast of air coming out>>Any chance of you and The Marlboro Man exchanging condos? It sounds far-fetched, but it might actually solve the problem, if the condition isn't that different. He gets a view from the top, you get your lungs back...
...He'd also get a third bedroom, two foot higher ceilings, and the brick walls I worked my butt off to expose...I'm going to investigare possible crossovers in the HVAC. The whole building is forced air. It really wouldn't surprise me if there was a crossover. It wouldn't be the primary point of infiltration, but it could be a contributing factor. To think...every time my furnace kicks on, it could just be blowing that much more stinky air directly into every room.
If i were you, i'd move just to get rid of the FA heat! ;^)HVAC guys advertise remote cameras for cleaning ductwork...i wonder if one of those rigs could trace the path yours takes? Somehow, opening up the floor and getting a draft makes me wonder if the fans from the lower units baths and kitchen somehow didn't get ducted all the way to the outside, just like some idiots duct into the attic. Your condos were a commercial job, but still...worse has been overlooked by BIs.
His cold air return may be your heat supply. That is a big time concern for the condo board to rectify!
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My company manages 2300 condos in 32 locations in Ohio. I have been doing this for 27 years and have had only two smoking odor complaints. One of my managers spoke to one couple and they cooperated (did more of their smoking outside)and the upstairs owner was satisfied with the improvement. I spoke to the other owner and got the whole "I will do whatever I want to do in my own home." I work with four attorneys in representing the associations and all advised there is not much that can be done legally. In Ohio associations can now evict an owner's tenant, but unless that right is given in the "Decaration of Condominium", cannot evict the owner or force a sale. The association could have declared it a nusiance and imposed a fine, but it is difficult to collect. The owner fined has the right to a hearing with the condo board. Most of my condo boards would rule excessivesmoking is a nusiance. Beligerent owners do not pay much attention to fines. We usually do not collect until the unit is sold. In the above case, we all got lucky because six months after the compaints started, the smoker sold.I wish I had a legal solution. Here is a case in Boston, but it is in rental housing:No Smoking Verdict
June 15, 2005. In a case that tobacco law specialists say is one of the first of its kind in the nation, a Boston Housing Court jury ruled that a South Boston couple could be evicted from their rented water-view loft for heavy smoking, even though smoking was allowed in their lease.The landlord who rented the Sleeper Street unit to Erin Carey and Ted Baar ordered them out within a week last November, after neighbors complained of the smoke odors filtering into their apartments. Carey and Baar, who each smoke about a pack a day and run an information technology sales business out of the one-bedroom unit, fought the eviction, arguing in court that the converted warehouse's shoddy construction and aging ventilation system were to blame for the wayward odors.Last Friday, a jury ruled in favor of the landlord and the eviction. Even though the landlord could have written a nonsmoking clause into the lease and didn't, the jury found that the couple's heavy smoking violated a more general clause banning ''any nuisance; any offensive noise, odor or fumes; or any hazard to health."Although the verdict is not binding on other courts, tobacco law specialists said the decision is one of the nation's first to declare smoking a nuisance serious enough to become grounds for eviction.''It is very important, because it is a sign that people are more aware of how dangerous second-hand smoke is," said Professor Richard Daynard, chairman of Northeastern University's Tobacco Products Liability Project, which tracks second-hand smoke litigation nationally. I believe this decision could accelerate the willingness of courts to decide that, if you are creating smoke that is seeping into other people's units, you are doing something that has to stop." He said the verdict could be cited in other Boston tenant-landlord disputes.John Forcier, another member of the Dockside Place Condominium Trust board who is acting as its spokesman, said that the smell of smoke wafting into the other units was overwhelming and that one neighbor feared for the health of her 4-month-old baby.Forcier said that the couple's heavy smoking, not the construction of the building, was the problem. At least a half-dozen other residents of the building are known smokers, he said, but the only complaints the board ever received were about Carey and Baar. ''You could walk in the hallway and smell it," said Forcier, who said his unit isn't affected. ''One time, after spending about an hour in the unit upstairs from them, I went home smelling like I had been in a bar."The landlord’s lawyer, Peter S. Brooks, said yesterday that the jury correctly found that, under the state sanitary code, landlords are not required to ''prevent odors from escaping an apartment" and that it was the couple's responsibility to moderate their smoking. Brooks said last week's decision will become a useful tool for protecting the health of other tenants.Excerpts from article by Ralph Ranalli and Jonathan Saltzman, Boston Globe
Here's an article in the Denver Post from November about a similar occurance: http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_4667551>>>>Golden - A Golden couple can't smoke in the townhouse they own after a judge ruled last week that their condominium association can prohibit smoking in their four-unit building."This is my home, and I worked for it," Colleen Sauve said Wednesday. "I can't relax and have a cigarette in my own home. If I do, I'll get fined."Sauve and her husband, Rodger, who are both smokers, filed suit in March after the Heritage Hills #1 Condominium Owners Associationamended its bylaws to ban smoking. A judge recently ruled against them.The association was responding to complaints from the Sauves' next-door neighbor, Penny Boyd, about smoke odor seeping into her unit.Despite caulking, filters,
insulation, painting and ventilation adjustments, the smoke smell continued to bother Boyd, according to court documents.
"We argued that the HOA was not being reasonable in restricting smoking in our own unit, nowhere on the premises, not in the parking lot or on our patio," Colleen Sauve said.
Owners of the other three units, who approved the ban, were "recognizing the dangers of secondhand smoke and its obnoxious odor and were making their community a safer place for everybody," said their attorney, Brian Martin."Your home is your castle, but when you live in a small community like this and your actions start affecting those around you," Martin said, "it prevents other people from their homes being their castle, and something clearly needs to be done."The state limits smoking to 15 feet away from main entrances to public buildings. Smokers in Golden can light up just outside the doors. And Jefferson County District Judge Lily Oeffler ruled the Sauves can't smoke in their own home.In her Nov. 7 ruling, Oeffler said that "the issue of whether there was actual smoke or simply smoke smell is irrelevant."Oeffler likened "smoke and/or smoke smell" to "extremely loud noise" that is not contained to one area.The smoke smell, Oeffler stated, "constitutes a nuisance." Under the condo declarations, she noted, "no nuisance shall be allowed ... which is a source of annoyance to residents."Smoking for the Sauves now means leaving home, whether it's jumping in their car and driving around the block, standing on the sidewalk or wandering across the street to a friend's home.Rodger Sauve questions where such rulings will lead. "If we barbecue fish, is that going to be considered a nuisance?" he asked.The Sauves said they would like to appeal the ruling but can't afford it after spending $6,500 on the lawsuit.
"A piece of me says, 'Just forget about it and walk away,"' Colleen Sauve said, "and another piece of me says, 'Aw, go to hell."'<<<<I think this condo board's behavior was atrocious here--refusing to allow smoking anywhere on the property is downright draconian. But I also suspect there may have been a much bigger history of conflict that the article doesn't get into.
Simple solution...MOVE!
If you decide to live in a multi-unit of any flavor ..duplex, appt., "condo"=expensive duplex/appt. you have to buy..but only own from painted surface to painted surface...whatever, then you have to deal with communal living.
Don't like the habits of the other bees in your hive...tough crap, deal with it or strike out on your own.
Old ladies cook alot of cabbage......saurkraut
I don't smoke.....but I don't infringe on others rights to either.
If our great grandfathers would have seen what we are doing .....they wouldn't of had any kids, or seen a reason to fight in any war. And if they re-appear...we are in for a wicked arse kicking.
60 post later the answers are here,it's been decided, go buy a oreck air cleaner, pipe in a little air,to postive pressure,might as well spend 20 bucks on foam and some gaskets for your plug in.all done in a sat. afternoon. when you move a couple years from now sell the oreck for 1/2 price to the new owner.[after closing of course . larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
the problem is that it needs to be done to the cans in the lower unit.
my theory is... if you plug your holes.. you have stopped the chimney effect... the only way for air to get into the unit is to have a draft to suck it in... unless dude below is pressurizing his unit to force the smoke into other units...
dude below is just creating the smell... dude above is suck'n it into his...
p
I'm going to skip all the methods suggested to drive out your smoking downstairs neighbors as they seem to have been covered well enough and probably won't work anyway.
The ionizers will help a great deal. I have used both passive and active ionizers and either one will make a hugh contribution to lowering the concentration of 2nd hand smoke. I have never used the oreck so I don't know anything about it. I have used several passive models and other ones from Bionaire and Breeze (similar to ones recommended earlier). I would recommend either or both.
I generally feel that it would be difficult to seal off the upstairs from the downstairs since it would involve sealing openings inside the wall as well as those thru the wall. But that said a couple of cans off "Great Stuff" might help to seal some of the openings. Be careful around electrical boxes as you don't want to trap heat or fill the box just any openings around the edge of the boxes or if possible thru the box without filling the box.
best of luck, Jim
The Orek is an actual filter which takes the particles out of the air as opposed to ionizers which try to make them smell better.
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You are partially correct as I understand how the Oreck Air Cleaner works. The unit has several stages, One of which is activated charcoal filter and another might be a fancier filter, but the main stage is an electro-static air cleaner which ionizes the the particulate matter in the air and cause it to be deposited on one or the other of two charged plates. I refer to this as active ionization as opposed to passive ionization which generates ions (charged particles) which then attach themselves to particulate matter in the air and precipitate out of the air and fall on surfaces around the ionizer. Now some of these units have a charged surface on the outside which attracts the ions.
Thanks, Jim
hey blue,
this bud's for you.
be u pay attention now, ya hear?
Yours in one in a long list of reasons I'd never move into one of those kinds of developments.
I'd let the bathtub overflow.
Yep, personally, I'd rather live in a mobile home in tornado alley
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I'm with you, but isn't that a sad commentary on the way we build multi-unit housing? If its not noise its something else...
I suggested the Alpine air cleaners. I used to sell them and most who do sell these remarkable machines will let you try it for a few days. I promise you will not smell smoke after the first 3 hours or ever again.