Ext. Wall Not Plumb, Door Frame Twisted
I’ve got a bad problem with the back door on my 15 year old home and need some help. I hope this post isn’t too long, but I want to make sure I have posted all the details.
So… the exterior wall isn’t plumb. From the inside, the wall to the left of the door (latch side) leans out 1/2″ at the top of the door. The wall to the right of the door (hinge side) leans out 1 5/16″ at the top of the door.
The steel 15-light inswing right hand door doesn’t work properly. It closes on it’s own, doesn’t latch easily, and the bottom left hand corner doesn’t even touch the weather stripping.
To make matters worse, the steel storm/security door exhibits very similar problems. It won’t latch at all, and the bottom left hand corner (from inside the house) doesn’t even touch the frame.
I’ve put a lot of thought into how to make the doors work properly, but I’m still stumped. I thought about building a custom door frame that matches the twist and lean, while the door stops and brick mould remain plumb to accomodate the two doors.
The problems I see with that are the striker plates and hinges will be inset quite a bit, and I’m not sure how that will affect the operation of the doors.
Do any of you have any tips? I’d like to get this fixed before it gets cold, so I don’t loose so dang much heat out of the gaping cracks. It’s bad enough having all the heat come in, but electricity to run the AC is much cheaper than gas to run the heater. 🙂
Thanks in advance!
Paul
Replies
ANy idea why the wall is leaning so bad? That would be the first thing I looked at.
Matt
As far as I can tell, it was just built poorly. I don't see any cracks or other problems inside or out that would indicate a settling or structural issue.Paul
That would be ideal I guess. I wouldn't want to fix the door everytime something decides to move.
A custom jamb would be the remedy without looking at it in person.
1x then another 1/2" laminated to that with a rabbet for the new weather stripping. That 1/2" will be tapered to what you need to make the door shut plumb and level.
Matt
That's exactly what I was thinking. :-)I drew it up in Google SketchUp to make sure I wasn't missing something and found two issues:1) The hinges would be inset enough to require me to route short channels on the frame to accomodate the hinge barrels. Otherwise they wouldn't lay flat.2) The strike plate would also be inset. The area of the frame on the interior side of the strike plate will have to be carved out to accomodate the curve of the strike plate. I think the latch bolt will probably rub on the frame prior to meeting the strike plate and mar the frame. So I'll have to come up with a solution to that.Paul
Is the wall out of plumb? As in bottom plate to top plate.
Or is the rough opening not plumb? Like the level is sitting in the picture against the casing.
Matt
The wall is out of plumb... by different amounts depending on where you check. It's not too bad until you get near the corner just to the right of the door.At the moment, the door jambs follow the lean and are out of plumb the same amount that the wall is.Paul
The picture with the level confused me a little, I wanted to make sure we were talking about the same out of plumb.
Custom Jamb would be my approach.
Matt
Is this door in a corner or middle of a wall, do you have a picture?
Edited 9/9/2007 1:50 pm ET by USAnigel
Here is a photo of the interior and one of the exterior.Paul
Oops. Here are the photos.
looking from the inside.
The right side can be set level and square with out making it show to much. Your going to need a wider jamb for this, maybe a 2x6 sized jamb or just add extensions to the existing.
Left side is close enought to 'fudge' with spliting the differance of the out of level. Cut a tapered filler to fit behind the trim to close the gaps.
On the outside, trim the extensions to blend in but keep them close to level and square.
That vaguely looks like a vaulted ceiling?I'm guessing that the builder had trusses that were so long, so that's how he set his top plates. But have you checked the opposite wall for plumb (on the far end of the intersecting truss/joist).
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Yes, it's vaulted. I'm not sure of the exact term... The walls are 8 feet high, the ceiling is 10 feet high, and the ceiling perimeter slopes up. The ceiling was framed with two-by lumber and was hand nailed. There are no pre-built trusses.The wall opposite the wall with the aforementioned messed up door is almost perfectly plumb.Paul
OK, probably during the setup of the vaulted ceiling the wall got to leaning out.Have you owned the house from the start? Is it possible that the vaulted ceiling is a retrofit?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
No, I've only owned the house for about three years. It's been that way since I bought the place.I do not think the vaulted ceiling is a retrofit. Both the master bedroom and living room are setup like that. If you look at the framing in the attic, it seems to be original to the house.Paul
Have you looked at the roof to see if it's sagging in the area above this door? Look along the ridge line and see if there's a dip.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I haven't noticed any roof issues. I'll check on that.Paul
Also looks like that bumpout to the left (seen from the outside) is also out of plumb. True?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
If you're talking about the small wall with the two-gang light switch...Nope, it's plumb on both sides and the end.You can actually measure the width of that small wall near the bottom and near the top and see how badly the exterior wall leans out at the top.Paul
Oops. Sorry, you said the bump-out seen from the exterior. I'll check and let you know.Paul
Yeah, I noticed that that window totally fills in the space between the two walls, which would mean that if one is tilted either the other is or the window isn't even a parallelogram.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Make lemonade. Create a mini-alcove of sorts to let you set the door plumb. Doesn't have to be much more than wide pieces of Azek set inside the (slightly enlarged) rough opening to make the door seem to be inset several inches from each side. Done right it could be a "feature" -- a little point of interest.Would be easier if it weren't for that d*mn window on the sidewall, though.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Well now that's an idea. :-) I'll have to toss that 'round and see what I can come up with.Paul
Paul
If the wall is the way it is and not moving, ie; built improperly, then I would custom make myself a jamb.
I would use 6/4's wood but make the jamb wider then your opening. If you have 2 X 4 walls and the jamb is 4 1/2" I'd make it 5 or 6" wide, depending on how much I needed of course.
Plough out, rabbit the jamb for the door and cut a saw kerf for the weather striping.
I'd then set the jamb using shims and maybe a few nails to hold it in place, mark the outside of the jamb so that I could take it out and rip off the excess. Leave it a bit proud so that you don't have to fight the casing.
Rehang the jamb, paint/finish it and your good to go.
Doug
Edited 9/9/2007 2:06 pm ET by DougU
pgf
I used to do window and door installations and ran into this all the time.
You can do it the hard way, as noted above, and make a new door jamb to fit the house.
That is probably the best way.
Or you can do it the easy way which will work if you handle the details right. The easy way is to kick out one or the other of the bottom corners until the door and jamb are in one plane and the door meets the weather stripping properly. Plumb it in the plane of the wall. It will not be plumb measured square to the wall, becasue the wall isn't. Shim behind the portions of brickmould that are standing off the wall. Fasten it.
You will have to rip tapered jamb extensions to fill the gap on one side at least.
Then you have to make it weather tight, which can be a challenge when one corner is projecting out into space. I'd have to see the installation to tell you how to do that.
It sucks to have to compromise your own work to cope with somebody else's mistakes, but when something fundamental is messed up, there is a price to pay every time you go near the original f***-up.
Ron
Has the door ever worked well?
What kind of siding do you have? Is the door frame solid wood, or something else?
You're not going to get a door to work well in that situation without either:
-- Straighten the walls, or a least the one with the REALLY bad lean. (Not even M R MacDonald -- a legend in our neighborhood -- could screw up a wall that badly! Gotta wonder if there's something even more serious to think about here.)
-- Remove the door frame and realign it in the opening to make it flat (if not plumb), shimming the jamb face as needed to mate with trim inside and out.
-- Remove the stop on the latch side and the top (may require some hammer/chisel work) and then install a new stop that mates with the door when closed. Unfortunately, since the hinge side is worse, this causes both corners of the door to lean out the inch-plus.
-- Remove the stops all around (or at least on the top and hinge side), remortise the hinges to be more vertical, and install new stops.
There's no problem with having the latch hole inset fairly deeply -- you can get strike plates with extra long "tongues" to handle the difference.
Don't too quickly discount fixing the wall lean, even if you're convinced it's bad construction from the start. I've fixed several such problems in this house, and while it takes some study and head scratching, it's usually not a major deal so long as you're willing to put up with a little drywall damage, etc. You'll be much happier with the result than if you just patch things up.
Nope, the door has never worked well as long as I've lived there. (about 3 years).The siding is Masonite lap siding. The door frame is pine.Most of the wall isn't too bad. Even the wall just to the left of the door is only leaning out about 1/2" over 6 or so feet. It only gets really bad on the hinge side of the door near the corner.Thanks for the tips!Paul