Customer hires me to paint her front porch. While I’m prepping it, she asks about the miter joints on the baseboard around the columns. The joints have opened up about 1/8″ due to shrinkage. I tell her that I can caulk the joints and she asks if that would be a permanent solution. I say no because all wood will expand and contract with seasonal changes.
I know I can replace the trim and it would look perfect the day I leave, but I wouldn’t be happy knowing that they will be looking at the same problem in a few years.
She checks with her husband and then tells me that he said that fixing these miter joints “permanently” is what he really wanted and that he was planning on doing the painting himself. She apologizes for them not having their act together. I propose that she pays me for 1/2 day that I already spent and we can depart as friends. She agrees and throws in a little extra for my trouble.
I’m comfortable with with my compromise because things could have gotten ugly, but (finally), here’s my question:
Was I right about the miter joints? Is there any way to keep them from opening up over time? Is there any other material that can be used (this trim was pine)?
-Don
Replies
the wood shouldn't shrink length wise, ie with the grain, but will definitely shrink at right angles to the grain. The problem I have seen with wide outside miter joints, is that as the wood contracts, the angle of the joint increases and the back of the joint opens up. It is more likely that the baseboards are nailed to the column and as the column expands the joints are pulled open. I'm thinking the only way to get this resolved would be to let the baseboard float around the column and hide the gap at the top with some sort of reveal cut into the column, or explain it to the HO and talk about caulking .. however, all this said you did the right thing, you are a better judge of the client's expectations ..
Here's an excellent way to handle the problem.
http://www.garymkatz.com/WindsorOne/columnwrap.htm
thanks for the link - wow, you just don't see that level of conscientious detailing out here in california. Nice to see how it really should be done!
RE "conscientious detailing," don't your local building codes in CA require window flashing?
Uh, yeah...I was referring to the link to the porch post construction detail.
To be honest, we don't see it around here (Chicago area) much, either.I saw Gary Katz demo it at the JLC Live show last month & it takes a bit of time, but seems like it would solve a lot of issues. We haven't used this exact detail yet, but have done a variation (simpler) for a few years & it seems to hold up well. The trick seems to be to use engineered material like Miratec or Prime Trim for the components & to let everything move independantly. We've also used f.j. redwood with good results as well as m.d.o. for columns where we can hide the edges.We've found that as long as there's an airspace behind the trim along with proper flashing (in addition to the engineered material being used) we don't see problems.
Just happens that GAry is a California Carpenter
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
....and I would guess, probably not running a crew on a tract anywhere near my neighborhood LOL! =)
THAT WAS GREAT
MARIA
For some more really cool stuff, be sure to thoroughly check out Gary's website. He's also the moderator of the finish carpentry forum over at JLC. Lots of good info there, as well. He certainly knows his stuff!
Nice link. Where can I get a few of those Collins Spring Clamps? I'm a Canadian eh.Have a good day
Cliffy
Cliffy, try this link: http://www.collinstool.com/ I think they ship all over. If you can't buy from them, let me know. I can buy them at a local store that stocks them here, & I'll send them to you.
Hey thanks for the link and the offer. I just checked the link quickly but couldn't get the order form page. I'll try again when I get a day off. I'll keep your message in the mail box in case I have problems with them, but we have done a few orders across the border without any problems.
Have a good day!
Cliffy
The Black Hawks went undefeated this year!
Garrett Wade has them. Made in Germany by Ulmia, I believe.
Gene, the Ulmia's are like the collins, but at about 5 times the price, iirc. I think the points on the collins are a bit more needle like, as well. The pliers that come with the ulmia are much more rugged than the collins, but the collins still work fine, especially for around 35 bucks for the kit.Here's a link to the ulmia's at garret wade.
http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?lGen=detail&itemID=101527&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=0&iSubCat=0&iProductID=101527
Try researching some of the different synthetic materails for paint grade work.
Try researching some of the different synthetic materails for paint grade work.
I was hoping that some folks here might have had experience with some of the newer materials.
I just looked at the website for Azek, for example. No good for this application because it expands and contracts. But what else is there besides wood or vinyl?
-Don
Azek expands and contracts 1/8" in 20'=0", for this application Azec will be fine.
mike
Azek expands and contracts 1/8" in 20'=0", for this application Azec will be fine.
Right you are, thanks. (1/8" in 18' according to their website)
Unfortunately, they only make drip cap, brick mold and crown. I would've needed baseboard.
-Don
Don, the Azec is made in 4x8 and 4x10 sheets, one by X sixteen feet long and T&G beadboard too. You can get stock and mill any thing out of it that you can mill oput of wood. I was going to suggest Azec too. "Fixing" the old miters is not anything I would have wanted to do. I would told heer I would replace them. It sounds like cehap woprk was the cause to me. We glue and stick exterior mitred base all the time with no trouble. even with real wood
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Don, you can make base out of the 3/4" trim boards. Widths,4" 6" 8" 10" 12"
Cuts like wood, glue the miters with their pvc glue. This stuff is very flexible, If you do not have long roof racks on your vehicle, take a long 2x with you or have them cut it in half .
mike
Thanks for the info. I'll remember it for the future. As for now, I'm done with this particular job (and probably these people too).
-Don
You were right about the joints. There are ways to reduce the likelihood of the joints opening up, but they all represent compromises of one sort or another.