I have to trim all exterior windows and doors with 5/4 x 6 Cedar rough side out. Homeowner wants the joints @ 45°. Would you guys Biscuit them or use the Kreg Pocket Hole Jig or what would you guys do?
I’m concerned about the Cedar shrinking and joints opening up. All the trim has been pre stained already.
Replies
Joe
I'm not sure that the pocket screws would hold up in cedar. They don't go in all that far and the wood movement could easily pull them out.
Not sure of the biscuits though either. Maybe with gorilla glue, not real sure.
Could you screw them like you pin a corner, screw from both directions, Plug the screw holes?
I don't do a lot of exterior trim so I'm kinda guessing here.
Doug
I was thinking the biscuits with using the regular glue for the biscuits and then the Gorilla glue for the rest of the joint. Maybe nailing the two sides in first on top of the cedar sills I have to make and putting the biscuits in the sides first and then putting the head piece on top.It concerns me because when you 45 the joints they will measure 7-3/4" so I was thinking maybe two biscuits or one at the short point and the screws at the top corners like you said. What do you think? I will also prime the joints once I've cut them.Joe Carola
Edited 3/17/2005 12:10 am ET by Framer
Joe
when you 45 the joints they will measure 7-3/4"
Yea, if they are that wide two would be gooder.
Whats your reason for using reg. glue instead of gorilla? Maybe the gorilla glue would expand the joints?
And if your going to use yellow make sure you get the new Titebond III, much more water resistant/proof than II.
Doug
"Whats your reason for using reg. glue instead of gorilla? Maybe the gorilla glue would expand the joints?"Yes, That's what I was thinking. Would you use the Goriila for the bicuits?Joe Carola
Those miters will open no matter what you do.
When people want me to do something that I know is wrong, I won't do it. Period.
But joint, or get somebody else.
Lot of good advice around here, if you don't mind wading through all the crap.
Anybody goin' to AMS?
6 16 17 97 99
Hi Joe, I mostly lurk on both here and on the knots side. I am not in the trades but do a far amount of woodworking. I think that you are right to use the TitebondIII instead of the Gorilla glue for the biscuits. The biscuits get much of their strength by expanding and completly filling the kerf in the slot, it expands from the moisture in the glue. Gorilla glue needs moisture to cure, and does not impart any moisture into the biscuits, so they do not expand like they should, and you do not gain any strength from them. The titebond III has a 4000 PSI rating, while the Gorilla Glue (I could not find rating on the gorilla glue site so these are for titebond polyurethane glue, which is the same thing) are 3000 -3500 PSI.
As long as the joint is not imersered in water the titebond will be fine. You can get a little bit better adheasion on the end grain but first rubbing a small amount of glue on it like with your finger, (do not put any in the biscuit slots at this point) and let it dry 15-30 minutes and then biscuit and glue as you normally would.We are the people our parents warned us about. J. Buffett
I have splined 45 degree joints (like a biscuit, but runs the full length of the joint).
Cedar is going to move... no matter what you do. The spline will allow the wood to move... but yet not allow it to pull completely apart.
1/4" spline; 3/4" depth on each side of joint. Insert spline into one piece; pin in place from the backside; rough cut spline with sharp razor knife; install trim "with spline" first; install "non-spline" piece... final trim of spline with razor knife.
I recently tried out cutting a tongue and groove... and it was a bit more time consuming than the spline... but I was pleased with the end result. Keeps you from having to pin the spline in place. Need a router table with mitre guage, though. Also requires you to cut the "tongue" piece long enough to fit AFTER the forming of the tongue.
If you do glue the joints... use a glue that will give with the cedar. If not... eventually the glue will not hold up. That constant stress of shrinkage and expansion is REAL rough on a glue joint.
Personally, i want to allow the joint to move... but not completely apart. I want to control the movement as much as possible... thus the spline.
Be sure to seal those end-cuts... no matter what method you choose. And I am assuming that your painters are going to come in behind and seal it up with some clear copolymer.
hey Jo
I do what you are asking about quite a bit - 5/4 for windows and 2 X for lattice doors and gates etc
I go gorilla w/ 2 biscuits and dogs on the backsides overnight until the glue dries
if you are dealing w/ dry cedar and it is stained and rough cut to boot you will have some of the finest miters you've ever done and for eternity
I also add the screw ( screws ) to the corners as Doug mentioned
carry on!
Joe, I would use PL Premium with biscuits. I have used this combination a lot on unfinished cedar casings (butt joined, not mitered), mitered mahogany decking, curved-laminated cedar trellises, and lots of other exterior stuff. The wood will break before the joint does. Gorilla glue would probably work too, but I trust the PL Premium more.
Mike
Mike - the PL premium you refer to - that is the thick stuff in a tube like caulking, correct?
Shoe, that's it. Yellow and black tube. Polyurethane construction adhesive; similar to Gorilla glue but with more body. Wear gloves and old clothes when working with it. You will get it on you, and your hands will turn black from the glue residue. But, it's amazing stuff.
Mike
Thanks to all you for your responses. Today I went over this with the Homeowner and he now wants me to make a backband around the trim so he would rather not have the joints @ 45°.Before I went there this morning I bought the Dewalt Biscuit Jointer and #10 biscuits and did a test piece on a 45° with two biscuits and then after talking with the owner when we decided to go with square cuts I did a test piece with one biscuit using titebond and the other piece with gorilla glue.So now that I'm not doing 45°, and square cutting them, would you guys use one biscuit or not use any biscuits at all?Joe Carola
2, of the large bisquits, but now that I have the kreg jig, I'd be thinking about that instead. I don't think you want to go buy more tools.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 3/17/2005 6:01 pm ET by calvin
Sure he does.
Two little bisquits and skip the glue.6 16 17 97 99
The #10's are 2-1/8" and the hole is bigger. I think the two holes in the 5/4 x 6 might be to wide. Maybe I can go with two #0's.Joe Carola
joe, to me it was like f-stops on a camera. Still don't know whats bigger. You know the material, i'm sure you know the size for it. If it's your first time w/bisquits a tip, they don't automatically register the faces flush and flat. Have some clamps ready if you prefab them.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
2
Can you quit with the biscuits already?? Haven't eaten all day (doing the ole 'scope tomorrow). Was about to eat the pictures from Good Housekeeping awhile ago.
Now that you are butting the joint I would go back to the pocket screws.the course thread and 1 1/2 screws will hold much better in the side grain than in the end.Bisquits will help with the allignment but so will a clamp while you drive the screw.I have done the same thing with the trim on my windows with butt joints ,, glue and screws and have had very good resultsOne note about the screws-- you need to pocket the end grain and thread into the side grain, the other way won't be nearly as effective. Mike
If you absolutely want to keep the corners together, use a bellhanger bit to drill a hole at 45 degrees all the way through the corner, so that it almost nicks the inside corner of the joint. Then Gorilla glue in a piece of dowel. If you want you can do two such dowels, spaced an inch or two apart.
definitly biscuts and glue the joint i would throw some nails in thier also,beef it up baby.
If you can't talk them out of miter joints, then get it in writing that the joint will probably fail or the wood will split in a year or less.
mike
I go through this all the time. Talk him into a butt joint, maybe with a wider material for the header, or perhaps an intermediate trim piece. Sure as shootin those joints will open. When I encounter this problem I refuse to do the work in a manner that I know will reflect badly on my reputation.I can't stand an open joint and won't let a HO talk me into it.
Actually, if you just built a cosmetic frame (not used for weatherproofing) and let it "float" then it should be possible to have the joints hang together.
Why don't you use Aztek? They have a rough cedar looking trim and the miter will never let go if you use that pvc glue.
Why are you using a 45 on the casing?
That seems an unusual and less than desirable way to do it. Whats the trim style?
I just finished a job very similar to what you are doing. I picture framed six new Andersens with 5/4 x6 fingerjointed. Fabricated a drip cap for the top and corniced molding under that.
I made them in my shop with the Kreg and glued with Titebond III. They were rock solid. I personally dont think you would have any problem with the Cedar. One thing I did do to add a little more protection for the screws was to fill the drill holes (on the backside) with Phenoseal.
I must admit, it was nice doing all the work in my warm shop and then just popping them up with my framing gun. I even painted them in my shop before they went up.
I would go with the Kreg instead of biscuts because of the ease and no need for clamps. For me, it was a fast and easy job and even all the more nicer since it was inside work (it is still really cold out here on the island).
Good luck...Brian....Bayview Renovation