Follow up question here about exterior Trim Carpentry Business.
My buddy is an exterior trim carpenter. He has his own company and is working as a sub for a framing contractor. He has 2 to 3 crews of 2 to 3 men on each crew, depending on how busy he is.
He believes he is missing out on profit margin by working mainly as a sub for a framing contractor. I am exploring helping him grow his business by selling his services directly to the General Contractor market, and or possibly to the end user market (Home Owners).
My question is, do most framing contractors do the exterior trim work (siding, Tyvek, soffit, fascia trim, windows, doors) on residential projects, or is this portion of the work being subbed out directly from the general contractor to the trim contractor.
An architect I am working with told me he believes that most of this work is done by the framing contractor. Then another contractor friend of mine said he thought most of the work was done by trim contractors directly.
We are in Denver and I am interested in hearing how others are working this market.
Thanks,
Replies
Can only speak to my location, but framing subs are responsible for exterior trim elements such as fascia, soffits, door casings, etc. For the most part, either the framers or the GC's own guys set exterior doors, as well as windows. Trim carpenters do interior doors, base & case, and in some circumstances a separate trim sub is used for architectural elements (i.e. built in stairs).
Exterior trim carpenter? What the freak is this world coming too? I'm starting to see how some out there are making minimum wage. You are taking the pie and cutting it into so many pieces and trying to feed the whole world.
In my little corner of the world, the carpenter takes it from the foundation and takes it through felting the roof, and that includes the windows and exterior doors. Wood or FC siding he does, vinyl is left to the vinyl carpenters(okay, so we do that too, we just don't admit to it)
All this specialization among carpenters is starting to get on my nerves.....am I the only one that realizes we are not doctors? Specialized skills in this business? In great times maybe.....but when things tend to tighten, I'll bet the specialists become generalist pretty f-ing fast.
Keith, lemme tell ya. I started off in the hole back in the days of turn dogs instead of snap ties, worked up through roofing, siding, framing, drywall,trim and cabinets.
And now I'm a specialest. I specialize in all the trim and all the cabinets that fall between my waist and my shoulders.
Clampman
back? mine too.# # # # # # # , # # #--# # # # !
Panama,
Exactly. The only way I could do base or shoe now would be if I was laying down on a mechanics creeper.
Framing? Forget it.
Clampman
Miwuk, I think what your friend needs to do is to maybe start setting things up so that he can have one or two crews still subbing from the framer and then the others subbing from any G.C. he can land.
At least if he does that he'll still have his "mainstay" in place.
I don't know about Denver but I do know that in the market's that I have worked in you can be as specialized or general as you want.
Tell your friend it's time to get out and find some new G.C.'s to work for directly. Heck he'll probably end up better off any way he looks at it.
Just my 2cents worth.
(sidenote: anyone know how to make the symbol for cent's on a keyboard? It's driving me nut's! There has to be a way. ty.)
Clay,
Presuming your running Word as it’s pretty universal. I’m running Word 2000. Other versions should be similar.
Open a new Word blank document
Click on Insert, then Symbol
In the font drop down, choose Normal Text ( I’m sure it’s available in many others also , but I know where this one is).
In the subset drop down, choose Basic Latin ( again, it’s available in others also)
In the middle-ish of the window , fourth row down, is the ¢ symbol
If you just want to use it once, highlight it and them hit the enter key.
If you want to have ready access via the keyboard, highlight it and hit the short cut key button.
“New shortcut key” should be active in this new window, so just press Alt + c ( perhaps….you can use any key in combination with Alt that you like) and then click Assign. This combination should now produce the ¢ symbol on any Word document and many of these symbols will work with Prospero if you’re typing directly into the web page box.
Otherwise, compose in Word and then copy and paste to Prospero.
Tons of other symbols available also.
Hope this helps.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Inserting symbols -- an easier way using (almost) any version of Windows --
Go to Start | Programs | Accessories | System Tools | Character Map and be sure to choose the font to match your document.
Now you can either: 1) double-click the character(s) you want, click on the Copy button, then paste into your document; or 2) click once on the symbol and note the keystroke shown in the bottom right corner of the window. Then in your document hold the Alt key and type the code using the number pad. For example, to get ¢ hold Alt and type 0162. You can now insert all sorts of fun stuff, like ¼ (Alt-0188) and ± (Alt-0177) and ° (Alt-0176).
Hey! That makes ¢!
I agree with KEITHC, here in NY anyhow. Exterior doors and windows installed by framing crew. Exterior trim is installed by siding contractor, which in many cases is also the same crew that framed the house. Fascia needs to be installed prior to roof and is usually done with framing. I know of no time when the homeowner would be hiring "exterior trim carpenter" unless they are acting as GC, and again exterior trim would be handled with siding.
Unless I`m extremely backed up, anything that falls under carpentry I prefer to handle myself as opposed to subbing out. (Framing, doors, windows,interior & exterior trim, etc.)
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
We actually use two different subs in exactly the manner you describe (metro Atlanta area). Here, successful framing crews are usually large (10 guys or so) and almost always hispanic (probably undocumented). The "cornice and siding guys" are, in contrast (and this is merely my opinion), more knowledgable about complex framing and trim issues. They do all of the exterior "trim" work and, since we use concrete siding often, they install that too. They don't need as large a crew but their work needs to be more detailed.
ChrisA
Thanks RW, Clay and Chris, that's helpful info. When I used the term "exterior trim carpenter", that was a term that I made up. My friend may call himself a siding contractor, I'm not sure. He is still subbing his services out to the framing contractor and we are trying to bring him more profit margin.
Thanks for your input.
I'm not in the trades so take this for what's it worth -- but don't folks often build out the trim on the gable ends prior to raising so that they can build it out while it's on the ground -- it's easier and cheaper -- so I don't think you'd want a separate crew for that ???
That being said -- I could see an interest in higher end homes with highly detailed window heads and cornerboards for specialized trimmers but I still think for the cornices/facia's and soffits let the framers do it while they're there...
DMeenan,
I worked as a layout man in Phoenix in the early 80's on stick built commercial housing projects. There we not only put on the soffits and fascias, but windows and siding prior to raising the walls as well. However, these were definitely low end projects.
In Maine, where I got into the trades, we did everything. After soffits and fascias came the roofing. Staging already up. Then we clap boarded or shingled from the top down. Eliminated a lot of wasted time with scafolding setups, and the clapboards were easier to handle with one guy that way.
On the elaborately trimmed houses in southern new england, framing crews don't have the time or specialized tools, or patience, or experience for the job. A good framing crew can make much more money framing than doing exterior trim, and they are usually in high demand during the framing months.
Clampman
I don't think it matters where you are located. Whoever has the contract for the work is the one who gets paid for the work.
sometimes board sometimes knot
gordsco