I’m looking for the best options for painted exterior trim: fascias, soffits, corner boards, door & window casings, etc. What’s the best balance of cost, durability, paint-holding properties, workability and appearance?
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GP PrimeTrim
Why?
because:
for painted exterior trim: fascias, soffits, corner boards, door & window casings, etc. the best balance of cost, durability, paint-holding properties, workability and appearanceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
hmmm..where have I heard that before? lemme think? LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
no flys on you !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That's two threads in a row you've given me a good laugh...
May the New Year be as prosperous as the old.
It may not be the "best", but PrimeTrim is definitely pretty good stuff. It's fairly easy to work with (can you imagine routing a groove the length of a piece of Harditrim?), takes paint well, looks nice, and seems (after 11-12 years) to hold up quite well.
same as Mike, but for sills on Windows or water tables where moisture might sit.
It will rot like wood eventually, but that is a longer time than most real woods.
be sure to follow the printed intrsructions. using a gun can cause alligatoring or volcanoes that deteriorate with a few years around each nail.
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What do you all think about Harditrim?
i haven't used HardiTrim.. it seemed expensive.. have you used it ?
any tricks ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"…have you used it?"
No, only talked to people who had. It has all the advantages (no rot or bugs, holds paint, non-combustible) and disadvantages (heavy, dusty, more expensive) of other Hardi products.
>> What do you all think about Harditrim? <<
I have used it. The 5/4 stuff comes in 10' lengths which results in more waste and joints than other materials, most of which comes in 16' lengths. Some Hardie trim material comes in 12' lengths which helps some. It is brittle and will break in half when you are handling it so you have to be careful - just like the siding, only maybe worse. Also, here, it is not readily available in a wide variety of sizes, so you often have to go the special order route, which means no returning excess. The price is maybe 20% more than other engineered wood products, but then you have to factor in the additional waste caused by the shorter stock. You can't cut Harditrim with shears, so the regular fiber cement dust problems have to be dealt with.
Question - is the GP Prime an engineered wood/composite product? There is an engineered composite/wood product that is very popular around here called Miratec (sp?) which looks basically like a new generation of hardboard and is chemically treated to help with moisture and insect resistance. Does this sound pretty similar to GP Prime? 80% of the new home builders around here use Miratek trim with fiber cement siding. They do use the hardi soffit though. Miratec is readily available in a multitude of sizes, is easy to work with, and tends to be very uniform but I believe it is essential to protect it from moisture intrusion - I am still very suspicious of that part. It comes with a smooth and a woodgrain side, so you can put either out depending on the look you want. http://www.dealerslumber.com/miratec.html As you can tell I'm not sold on this Miratec stuff but I believe it comes with a 25 year warranty. Matt
I just finished a job that someone else had started, using 5/4 Hardietrim. What a PITA material. Look at it crosseyed and it breaks. Absolutely NO give. Gun nail only or predrill for hand nailing. If you miss a shot when hand nailing you won't see a dimple but if the material isn't completely supported it WILL break off.
I have used a lot of Miratec. You can carry a 16' stick of that stuff on the flat in the middle with both ends flapping up and down and it will remain intact. Cuts like butter with your regular trim saw but creates dust like MDF. Shaves like balsa wood with a utility knife. Gun nail or hand nail, best if through the face. Nailing through the edge, as when tying in cornerboards, can cause the material to split. Use thinner nails. Looks like it's made up of brown filo dough. Relatively soft material. A glancing hammer blow will tear off a piece. Rough handling or dragging a piece across or through a pile of wood will abrade the surface. Repairs with exterior wood filler (or bondo).
PVC! Cuts well, routes well, paints well. Only negative is it can crack in low temperatures when nailing it. So pre drill if its cold.
black walnut! it's decay resistant and holds a beautiful varnish coat! OK so you want to paint it, fine!
As for workablity, nothing works as nice as black walnut,
finally cost, I paid 17 cents for my black walnut but that's been a while, so you might have to pay as high as $1.85 if you want nice FAS stuff. That's per board foot so a piece of trim that is four feet long and three inches wide and one inch thick will cost you $1.85
A piece 6 inches wide and 2 feet long will still cost you $1.85 etc.
multiply it by the number of feet you need and that's your total cost..
frenchy.. if that's you... merry christmas !
lot's of your friends have been asking for you
tell us a story Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for all the information. I've done a little cost comparison that, combined with some of the comments on this forum, makes Primetrim appear to be a real winner. Here's what I came up with, using 5/4 X 6 for a benchmark:
Primetrim: $1.25 per lin. ft. (16 ft. lengths)
Hardi-Plank: $1.89 per lin ft. (10 ft. lengths)
Finger-jointed pine: $1.94 per lin. ft. (16' lengths - primed all sides)
D-Select pine: $3.20 per lin. ft.
Azek: $3.74 per lin. ft.
Clear Red Cedar: $3.99 per lin. ft. (surfaced 3 sides)
So what's wrong with Primetrim?
nothing..
it just requires some techniques..
if you edge nail it , it likes to split.. pre-drill
or if it mushrooms.. and it and prime it
it loves paint.. holds better than wood..
if you nail it , you should use a head nail.. we use SS siding nails.. and most let the nail stay flush/proud.... prime it and paint it..
if you have to you can set the nails, and fill the holes... but most don't..
my office was built in '95... the trim is all GP PrimeTrim.. it was primed, backprimed and two coats latex finish..
the paint is all still on , but it looks dull as hel*..
the lawn service has managed to weed wack some nice gouges in the corner boards..
but they can be primed , filled and painted.. and they have not swelled up or rotted..
GPPT is more rot resistant than cedar or redwood..
you've already done the cost comparisons....
it comes in two thicknesses, 16' lengths, and every width from 4 to 12
we use it for all of our exterior trim except window sills and kickboardsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, Around here, theree has been talk going around that GP primetrim is flaking and disintegrating.
I asked around and my painter said that what he has seen going off like that is where it had been shot on with a pneumatic and mushroomed around the heads. Then got wet awhile before he was called in to paint and he had to have his guys do the shaving, sanding, filling, priming and painting. He has seen some failures on those jobs from only two or three years ago. He siaad that on my jobs ( we drill and hand nail with SS siding nails) he had not seen any failures. I've been using it since about '96 with good success. This past week, while I was on vacation, my guys were re-doing a porch which had been trimmed in it only five years ago and it was showing signs of flaking and failure this soon. It had clearly been shot on with a gun and showed mushrooms all around the nails. some flaking at cut ends too, but signs that little glue was used there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
hmmm.... most of the time we flush nail with a ss siding nail..
but i have seen jobs where they set the nail and puttied it..
i'll keep an eye outMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You're using that N-60 with ss siding nails? Flush setting fine nails probably won't make it mushroom. You know it as soon as it happens. We flush set too, but by hand.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
we use cn 63, cn 64 & cn66.. all with SS siding nails..
most of the time Roy wants to drill and hand nail with SS ring shanks..
but on the rakes and above eye level i beat him with a stick to make him gun nail...
my nickel.... but he sure is stubborn.... hah
BTW.. that new CN66 is sweet.. dial-in depth control, great power, nice nose, easy loading... 1 1/4 - 2 1/2
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/31/2004 6:13 pm ET by Mike Smith
What brand is CN?....
I always wanted to get my hands on the Spotnails gun that shot both framing and "casing" nails, but they seem to have dissappeared....
That's the model number. I think Bostich is the name.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, sometimes we set nails and putty over too - it depends on the job and the location
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Miratec pretty much blows, IMO. Can you say mushrooming? EVERY single nail you put in mushrooms, and the mushroom cant be sanded w/out the sanded part flashing through the finish coat of paint. That being said, I have been using it for 2nd floor soffits/ fascias, where you cant see the problems-its going for a little more than a buck a foot here, so its cheap...Alan, check FHB, G. Katz reviewed all this stuff several months back.
I'm not defending Miratec - I stated my opinions above - but as far as mushrooming - it isn't an issue as long as you drive your nails just snug... Oh - and don't use any thick shank nails. I'd like to put my hands on a sample of this GP Prime Trim stuff though. I suspect it is nearly the same thing as Miratec. Matt
i'm pretty sure you're right.. i think Miratec is about like PrimeTrim.. who makes Miratec ?
one thing about PrimeTrim... i think they felt they were at a disadvantage.. because a competitor ( miratec ?????? ) had all of their material with smooth 3 sides and a wood texture on the rear...
i don't like wood texture trim.. so guess what.. PrimeTrim now comes with wood texture on the back ....so.. smooth 3 sides... textured back.. PROGRESS !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Miratec is made by a company called CraftMaster: http://www.cmicompany.com/pageBuild.asp?PageID=C_product_c&UserID=B&DoorID=x
With GP Prime trim is it necessary to prime the cut ends as you install it? I'm gonna check around and see if some of the local yards sell it.
BTW - we did use your Trex window sill method. Worked out good. Thanks. Matt
i don't know if it's neccessary... but we prime all cuts... so i guess i THINK it's neccessary
ain't Trex grand ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Know of any decent exterior primer that comes in a spray can?
I've built a number of Trex decks, but this was the first time I used it for something else. We used the ~1" thick stuff. Matt
we use coffee cans with a hole cut in the top of the plastic lid.. and a 50 cent chip brush...
they last about a week before they get real nastyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I swear we're twins of another mother. I uset he coofee can sealer brush too - and I set in in a cardboard box with something heavy in ti - like a chunk of PT cutoff - to keeop i tfrom blowing over. That sure can make a mess of a deck.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I keep a cheap brush in a plastic bag, and a half-full Mason jar of primer when I'm working on something where "odd-job" priming may be required.
I had always been leary of the compressed fiber products after masonite siding until a local lumber yard employee put several unpainted pieces of miratek in a bucket of water, and kept them wet for over a year, and they only swelled by about 1/16". I was sufficiently impressed that we now use it often.
When we resided about 12 years ago, a bunch of short chunks of the Masonite siding were left on the ground in the flowers and bushes around the house. (Generally they had been used for leveling scaffolding.) Was finding them for 5 years or so, and for the first two, at least, the pieces hadn't swollen or deteriorated at all. Even after 5, though the pieces were visibly swollen 10-20% they were still sound.IMO, "Masonite" got an undeserved bad rap from the other brands, plus possibly their attempt at "cheap" with that pre-painted stuff they tried near the end.The difference is between "tempered" and untempered hardboard. Tempered hardboard has been treated with a sort of "poor man's epoxy" (actually a sort of phenolic, I believe, created by a combination of oil and heat) to make it reasonably waterproof and non-absorbant.
Undeserved bad rap ?
We used masonite siding on one job 10 years ago when we did an addition to a home that had 12" redwood clapboard siding on the second floor. We matched it using masonite.
The stuff was pain to install because it was so hard to nail. Now, ten years later, it is swelling terribly and will have to be replaced next year with Hardie. The rep from the class action lawsuit against Masonite inspected the home and made an offer that would have covered the cost of some paint.
Our long time customer is pissed.
Undeserved bad rap ?
carpenter in transition
1) Are you sure it was Masonite brand?2) Was it the pre-painted junk they came out with towards the end? (Ten years ago would suggest yes.) That stuff was made cheap and "easy to apply" in a misguided effort to beat out other brands.3) If not pre-painted, was it properly painted? Careful examination of the instructions would reveal that you shouldn't use flat latex, though they don't explain that that's because flat latex is incredibly porous.Re nailing, if you don't have a power nailer the way to go was to pre-drill the holes. We did this with the pieces on a bench, allowing the holes to be accurately measured to hit the studs. Only had three or four "air nails" in the whole house, and those were because the stud pitch suddenly changed.
1) Yes
2) ???? Did we need to purchase it more than 10 years ago for it to be a quality product ? It was sold to us by a local reputable lumber yard / mill that had given us an alternate proposal to mill the siding to match using redwood. Cost ended that option. The installer was our best carpenter, 40 yrs+, a crazed perfectionist.
3) Painted and religiously maintained by the HO.
Take a look at 2 of the photos.
carpenter in transition
Not saying your carp is not a great craftsman, or that that siding material is not cr@p, but, IMO any trim & clap type siding material needs to be installed with small spaces at the ends of the "boards" so that it can be well caulked. I think another problem is cheap caulk too. You know, that $1.19 "painters grade caulk". Earlier in this thread I mentioned some of the new caulks that are now being made, I just wish they were a little more affordable and commonly used. Matt
I think I understand what Dan is saying, that the older Masonite was not a bad product. I worked on a home which had 8" or 10" Masonite lap siding installed in the 70's (?) which was prefinished. It looked great ! And it had never been painted after 20 years. We replaced an end of the home damaged by a fire with a primed material. I have no idea how it all fares today.
We did the install on a 15 F January day over 10 years ago and I can still remember smashing my thumb till it bled nailing that stuff. It was hard as a rock and we ended up predrilling it. In my opinion, if you have to predrill a siding material, it is not worth installing. With labor costs today, it's just not affordable.
carpenter in transition
Sorry, no shot of the backside of a piece -- the left-overs are under the deck, coated with 1/2" of ice right now.11 years old. Repainted last year. The difference must be the moderate climate here in Minnesota, I suppose.
Very interesting.
I did the same test, only with Advantech and a piece of regular 3/4" OSB floor sheathing some years ago. After that, I never looked back...(to regular OSB for floors)...
The only big problem I see with today's hardboard ("Wood composite") trim is that often, as with any siding, the painter's don't paint the bottoms of the corner boards. With Miratec, they do swell after about 5 years, which is still better than wood, in which case you will have peeling paint and start of rot...
Matt
Edited 12/31/2004 6:59 am ET by DIRISHINME
I figure it's best to simply pre-prime all 6 sides of every piece of exterior trim, no matter what it's made of (except maybe plastic), or what sort of "factory preprime" it has.
That is kind of how I tested a sample of Primetrim before starting to use it. Put a cutoff in a bucket for a week. No noticeable change.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>
Primetrim: $1.25 per lin. ft. (16 ft. lengths)
Hardi-Plank: $1.89 per lin ft. (10 ft. lengths)
Finger-jointed pine: $1.94 per lin. ft. (16' lengths - primed all sides)
D-Select pine: $3.20 per lin. ft.
Azek: $3.74 per lin. ft.
Clear Red Cedar: $3.99 per lin. ft. (surfaced 3 sides)
<<
Again, I'm not pushing Miratec, but I looked at a compeditive bid I have (builder's price):
Miratec = $.75 lin ft !!
I tried calling to get a "cash price" but they were closed today. Matt