I am replacing windows on my 1870’s victorian. After the asphalt/asbestos “upgrade” and aluminum siding “upgrade” in the 1960’s complete with sill horn removal, I’m upgrading the 20-30 year old sash replacements with Andersen 400 Woodwright new construction units, which are actually quite historically appropriate. I guess it’s a good thing I’m also redoing the interior because I can reframe the openings which solves the missing horn/rotten sill issues.
That said, what species of exterior trim should I use? Is it a crime if I don’t want to use Azek? Should I find 5/4 pine or cedar locally and stop thinking this to death? Any suggestions on local sourcing would be much appreciated.
I’ve attached a “pre” photo. Incidentally, this window also needs a hood with a hip roof, for which I’m still searching for examples…
Thanks,
Greg
Replies
Although some species of wood are much more rot resistant than others, your building design and methods will have much more to do with the longevity of the house.
In my original hometown in Ohio, the local historical society had records on a house (once owned by a congressman, in the first half of the 1800's) that stated clearly that it had no paint for the first 70 years of its existence.
Seventy years after it was built, it got its first paint job.
Well designed overhangs, properly executed siding and trim details, meticulous attention to where the water would want to go, and preventing it from getting there.
And this, in the days before tyvek or felt, before aluminum flashing, before asphalt shingles, before caulk......
In my opinion, so long as you don't use one of the woods that attracts rot (like poplar) you should be fine -- so long as the design and execution are good.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Do it right, and less expensively, with Marvin ultimate double-hung windows with applied casings and simulated thick sill (2" thick). You specify the species (in this case I'd use cedar or spanish cedar), non FJ (non-finger jointed) in the width to match existing.
Yes, I said less expensively, technically, because with applied casings the windows may cost a little more but there is less labor to install them. Plus, it's a better window.
Jeff
Edited 7/27/2008 2:48 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Pine would be fine with a meticulous paint job, but 5/4 cedar would be better. It is most likely a special order. I am more interested in that hip roof, as in a bay window? I admit that I am not all that familiar with the Victorian style or building. Historic houses in my area fall under two categories: small box like structures where the miners would sleep, or retardedly huge mansions where the mine owner's lived.
You got my attention with your description of the old homes in your area.
What mining world are you from. You can update your profile by clicking onto your name and then update your local for everyone.
Today's new growth pine would definitely NOT be fine unless completely water-repellent treated. ACQ? Not on a historic house. Marvin uses water repellent on their ponderosa pine (standard) but I'd still use cedar or spanish cedar.
Jeff
Edited 7/27/2008 9:03 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
With the paint on, you won't be able to distinguish between ACQ or sugar pine. At the risk of starting yet another argument in yet another thread, my PERSONAL feelings are practicality over purism. Good carpenters are made good by their installation methods and attention to detail, not necessarily the material they choose (that may play a role, however). I'm not saying rip it all off and put up Miratec and Hardie-planks, but if he chose to do so, I wouldn't think anything less of him. Even brand new houses have history, just a shorter one. Carpenters of that time would use the best material available to them too, I'm sure.
You don't have the right to tell anyone else what they can, or cannot distinguish - period.
Jeff
I'm not sure I followed that. I said that if I take two identically sized boards, one white pine and one pressure-treated. And painted them both white, you or any one else wouldn't be able to tell the difference, or distinguish between the two.
next week it would be apparent....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You are welcome to make such statements about yourself, but not about me.
And BTW, most treated lumber is SYP which is high on the checking, cracking, splitting list compared to most anything else.
Jeff
Jesus, I freakin' give up. For an advice web page, people get awful touchy when you offer advice. Dude, just use pop-cicle sticks for all I care.
I've got painted TREATED trim on some of my winodows it is doing fine. I'm starting my own history, I guess. I wonder if Extreme How-To has a chat room.
You may not realize that there is a protocol for historic houses:1) leave original material if it can be repaired (rather than replace)
2) if it cannot be repaired, replace with the closest possible material (not the latest we-don't-know-how-long-it's-going-to-last-but-it-sounds-great imitation lumbar).
3) maintain existing dimensions and details
The goal is to avoid loss of original material, if possible, or to maintain similar material, if not.
This isn't 'my way' or 'purism' or anything other than what is appropriate for a historic house.
Jeff
Following is an example of 2/2 Marvin replacements in a c. 1890's Victorian (matched existing windows almost exactly):
Edited 7/28/2008 5:02 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Marvin replacements - In the case of these windows, the head casing was omitted since they butt up under a piece of running trim.
The large nearly half-round attic window was found lying on the floor in the attic in barely-salvagable condition. Due to the need for attic ventilation (without ugly soffit vents or ridge vents) we turned it into a screened opening (screened the glazed area).
Jeff
Edited 7/28/2008 5:50 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Most unusual window considering what I can see of the rest of the house. You believe that to be original to the house? I've seen square ones set like a diamond and low, wide ones but that is interesting.
I have a large fan inside my front pediment that has a similar outside profile but my place goes back over 170years and glass would have been expensive, and given the location...northern ohio, impractical. Survival and all that.
What it take to save it?
ciao, ted
If you mean the attic window (and no room up there - it's really just attic) not the 2/2s yes I considered that to be both original and very unusual. From its apparent age it appeared to be original ('old enough') to be original and pegs this house c. 1900 as 'transitional' from Victorian to Colonial Revival.
It wasn't too difficult to save (some epoxy repairs) and screen.
Jeff
Edited 7/28/2008 5:37 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Thank you for the response. 'preciate that. Curiousity satisfied.
ciao, ted
Is that your house?
"It is what it is."
No - but one of my projects.
Jeff
Hey guys: take it somewhere else.
That is, unless you'd like to continue discussion on the original topic.
Thanks,
Greg
The scalloping is really a very cool detail.
I'm sorry you're committed to the Andersens. While you obviously can select whatever you want, and the Andersens are way above what many people would do, the exterior isn't wood ('Fibrex') and so saying that they 'are historically appropriate' isn't correct.
However, it's certainly a good product, great lowE4 performance and a near-invisible screen system.
Jeff
Those "invisible" screens look blue from the outside though.
"It is what it is."
They do if they are the Marvin stainless (I have them on my house). Andersens is different, being fiberglass IIRC.
Jeff
I didn't know that. Does Andersen make that themselves? Is it proprietary?
"It is what it is."
I don't know but you can send away for a free sample - http://www.andersenwindows.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Page&cid=1129482005803&pagename=AW%2FPage%2FawGeneral-3 - it's a pretty decent product - I just don't like fiberglas screen.
Jeff
Appropriate is whatever the homeowner decides. I think I've finally figured this place out. Good luck with your pop-cicle sticks.
I'd switch the cedar and put in pine. Sometimes, paint doesn't like to adhere to cedar. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Cypress is great ... but these days may be hard to find except river-recovered (which is expen$ive - but nice).
Never had an issue with paint/cedar done correctly ... but I have seen a lot of new-growth pine rot in no time.
Jeff
It won't rot if it's properly painted with the proper thickness paint, then caulked so no water can get behind the paint skin. Maintain both the skin and the bridge (the caulk) and the pine will last forever. If you don't intend to maintain, then I'd suggest stainless steel. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
A few hoods.
http://www.sfvictoriana.com/details/index_4.htm
Nice! That one just got book-marked. You will definately have to keep us posted with pics. My house was advertised as "Victorian Style". It was basically just a cookie-cutter house with a 12/12 hip roof. I'm still busy trying to give a little bit of character. I think a screened porch is next. You might even be able to use PT as trim just paint the hell out of it. You'll have to let it dry a little for it to take the paint. I don't see anything wrong with using modern materials to get the desired look.
My Man! You could come over to my place, just a few hundred miles west, and take the same picture. And your discovery process was similar. After removing all the bad ideas I bounced around the same question(s). This forum was the best source. Fortunately I had a back garage filled with a similar deconstructed 1850's house....well, some of it. Read, a wood source.
??? Do I see the original profile above the window or is that another bad idea? I cannot believe that someone did the same thing to your window sills as they did to mine! Took out a chunk of the corners. The former paint lines can be a big help with an original profile.
My siding is white cedar as is all the trim so I don't have a trim problem. Is your home registered or listed with an historical society? (Think pictures). Mine is, which is good and bad. Generally any material that can restore the original profile, if known, is 'tolerated'. Why tolerated? More often than not I've been told the wood type is my choice but please try to duplicate the appearance.
I've got a few local folks who demand (no authority except themselves) that the original wood be replaced by the same species. I have poplar, ash and hard maple that I can and have used to duplicate the window drip trim. Most of the current wood available is of much lesser quality but if I had too...well. 5/4 cedar or poplar would be my choice. For the quantity you need most small local yards will be most helpful.
Have fun and remember that there is an end to this and you will like it.
ciao, ted
Fortunately, I don't live in a historic district. Although, if I did maybe I would have a photo of those hoods! I attached a pic where you can see a perfect outline; the piece with the scallop detail (the only one left) fits neatly under the hood. That link from Mark H (thanks!) was great as it showed some of the closest in design I've found. There are plenty of hoods around here, but I haven't found any similar.
As for the windows, I've already gone with the Andersen's as I mentioned in my original post. I'm definitely leaning towards cedar for the exterior casework.
Greg
Now THAT is a fascinating profile! From the looks of it it should project out about 3 to 4 inches and be really Victorian in application. They did like their, big word coming, fenestration. Having a profile like that is a huge plus. Whether you live in a district or not most of the people I have met in these historic associations go completely nutz when you ask for their help in researching this stuff. Can't hurt.
And that scalloping is definitely going to pop the final product.
Rather than sit here reading I'm going to send my regards and dig into a couple of my Victoria books. I'm an Architect. I'll see how close I can get to matching your detail. Wish me luck.
ciao, ted
Great. Looking forward to it, Ted!
Greg
This area tells you 90% of what you need to know - with this profile drawn you can have trim made (or come close if budget dictates).
Also, you *may* find period photos from previous families or in the local historical society.
Jeff
Yes, this a common Brosco profile for this area. It's the hip roof portion of the hood I am having a hard time duplicating. From what the siding tells me on the photo in the original post, it seems like it might be similar to:
http://www.sfvictoriana.com/details/pages/42.htm
Both my neighbors have lived here for 50+ years and one of them actually lived in my house for 60 years, but wouldn't you know that she's estranged from her daughter who has all the family photos? I've searched the local historic commissions as well as the town clerk and have dug up some good history, but no photos...
Greg
Well everything above the crown was sheet metal - either galvanized or copper.
Jeff
Brosco is still in business - http://www.brosco.com/mouldings.cfm?page=consumer - why don't you ask them if they have any old catalogs? Plus, there are catalog reprint books.
Jeff
Lordy there are times. I found the books I was mentioning, went through them but only found a couple of window head treatments that might apply. And these are on some seriously large and expensive Victorians. Since I'm having trouble scanning and attaching I'm going to scan and store these things a different way and put them in the Photo Gallery later today.
I also went on the the Library of Congress HABS site. (Historic American Building Series) and found a huge number of examples from all over the country. Might be an interesting source if for no other reason than to see the variety of Victorian choices. This "Series" was created in the middle of the Depression as make-work projects for engineers and architects. Pictures and drawings and other stuff.
I've been trying to find a profile for an applied trim on my freize board. I got a shadow line for the width but nothing else. So I google around and find no consistency. I check with an Architect buddy who does a lot of research and has a lot of sources. He tells me that there wasn't and isn't a profile that could be condsidered as "standard". Each area of this country had builders that more or less looked around at what they or the client liked and put that on. It varies tremendously...even a few miles apart. The common thread is that the freize board had an applied trim, the style was what was common to the area.
Seems that as long as you remain 'faithful' to the overall style you're good. I like the idea of a copper top that one of the folks mentioned.
Enjoy the research. ciao, ted
Thanks for the help, Ted. I'm going to keep looking around here and will definitely look out for those on the HABS site.Cheers,Greg
adkins
A flawless paint job will allow any species to be used.. if the finish is ever defective in some way a decay resistant species will afford you with more time to refinish before damage is done..
Black walnut is decay resistant which is why I used it around my windows. (it was also extremely cheap at the time) however white oak is equally as decay resistant and much less costly. It like all decay resistant woods should be attached using stainless steel nails rather than dipped or other nails..
Cypress is a good, rot resistant, stable, and easy to work wood for exterior trim. Lots of Victorian trim in the south was made from cypress.
I would prime it with a penetrating oil primer, including backside and especially the end grain. Then a couple of coats of good exterior latex.
As others said, the detailing and flashing is critical to longevity.
Billy