After watching all the house “flip” shows and seeing how easy it is to make tons of money with very little effort I began looking for a winter project. LOL
Anyway I am looking a purchasing a fixer upper house with a walkout basement. The footing has apparently settled along the back of the house where the walk out is. The whole length of the walkout wall of the basement is exposed. The requirements here are that the footings be 48″ below grade.
The settling is said to have occurred in 1998 and has not changed since.
The homeowner hired a house mover to lift the house ( I assume to level) and then he apparently shimmed ( probably with concrete) between the plate and top of the foundation wall. He then tapered concrete on the floor to try to get it level.
I have determined that one corner is still 2 1/2″ low. My thought is that if I could insure that the footing is stabilized I would rebuild the wall of the walkout after leveling it.
My question is has anyone here dealt with a similar problem and what solutions did you use?
Thanks and watch for me on TV
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Replies
I don't quite get what your prob. is, most codes pertaining to footings mean below the frost line. The amount of wall exposed has nothing to do with it. If the footing is actually settling I would run as fast as possible from this project! Best I can do with your info., sorry.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
The frostline is now 48" BELOW the exposed foundation wall. In this case it is 48" below the grade level at the walkout wall.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
That is correct.
I had a concrete contractor look at it today and asked him to give me a price on removing the existing footing and below grade wall and replacing it on compacted engineered fill. I am assuming it would be similar to attaching a footing and wall to an existing foundation in order to build an addition.
Does this outfit operate in your area? http://www.ramjack.com/I've seen them fix some pretty sketchy stuff. Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
None in South Dakota listed on their web site.
Maybe it's too early in the morning but I still can't figure out what you are trying to say. I understand about the frostline being 48 inches below grade and I understand about the exposed foundation wall but the foundation wall and footings are two different things. I don't care about the foundation wall. Where are your footings? Are they below 48 inches?
roger
Yes, the footings are 48" below grade.
The footing has settled and I am researching to see what options are available to remedy the problem. The reason I mentioned the foundation wall was simply to convey the idea that it is easily accessible because the top is slightly above grade for the full length of the house.
Edited 10/21/2007 12:42 pm ET by 5brown1
Ah, okay. I guess one way to find out if the footings have settled is to check out the foundation walls to see if they have cracked. If the footings have dropped as much as you think then there should be some foundation wall damage.
If there isn't any foundation wall cracking then without any other evidence I would think that the footings haven't dropped and maybe the floor was poured poorly.
roger
There is cracking at the corner which has settled. It is back around the corner about 4' or approximately above the area where the footing would be stepped up. Since I don't own the house I haven't taken off the paneling to view the wall from the interior.
Based on what you have written, I am assuming that the foundation was overdug, and the footers were poured on uncompacted soils. shortly after - the whole things settled into the mud and quit moving since then. if that is the case, you are fine with things as they are below grade and only need to jack and shim.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree Piffin. I'd also advise against sealing off access because there is some chance that future shimming would be needed. That foundation might get pushed to hades.fka (formerly known as) blue
That was my first consideration. However, the house was built in 1975 and it was 1998 when the owners tried to do what you have suggested. So I don't know when the settling happened. The owners talk of a city water break (vaguely) but I checked with the city and they have no knowledge of a leak in that area. They make it sound like a sudden one time happening - but they want to sell the house
I don't know if they ever had it back level with their attempt at shimming. If they did it has settled again.
I just got a quote to replace the footing and foundation wall on compacted fill ( which I will have tested for compaction) for $3100.
That also includes replacing 1/2 the damaged interior floor .
I couldn't even set up to do the excavation for thirty one hundred!Start your whole investigation with having a soils engineer study this whole thing for you. Anything else is a waste of moneyu based on assumptions and hearsay
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe the contractor sees an opportunity for mudjacking? Some places don't need permits for mudjacking.
We need pictures.
"includes replacing 1/2 the damaged interior floor ."?????I know I'm expensive but .....This "quote" cannot possibly include much of anything for that kind of money. There is something missing here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was expecting a higher bid also. The contractor has been in the concrete business for at least 20 years and has poured two foundations for me in the past 8 years. He has not included supporting the house. I would hire a house mover to handle that.
I think you are correct that I need to talk to a soil engineer before going ahead. I want to get this right, but I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a house I do not and may not own. I told the real estate agent that the seller might want to consider sharing the costs but he felt they would be reluctant.
FYI: Around here having a house lifted and sat back down is roughly $10k for every thousand sqft. In your neck of the woods I would hope it is considerably less.
Personally I don't see the advantage of messing with the existing foundation until the soil conditions are checked. I would hire a soil guy to take core samples under/next to the footer. You may have crappy soil under the footer that a new footer or jacking the house wouldn't change. Explain that to the client why the new foundation is still settling! Maybe your footer is simply undersized. In remodels we sometimes underdig a footer in short sections and pour a good size chunk underneither the existing.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I would not lift the whole house. Rather I would just have the area in the picture brought back to level and supported while replacing the footing and wall. The frame wall would be removed and later replaced after the new foundation work was completed. The area that is cracked would also be replaced as a part of the project.
My house mover ( who lifted this house when the owner attempted to fix it) quoted me $800-1000 to level and support it while the foundation was being repaired.I will visit with my tenant who is a soils engineer about your suggestion.
Thanks.
I would not lift the whole house.
Oh! Now it makes sense.
Around here there are numerous guys with drill equipment mounted on skid steer's and they simply drive around the house and poke a hole down to the soil in question, stop the auger, and pull the drill out and examine the stuff to classify it. Our cost in Boise has been around $300 including a letter with an engineer's stamp stating what the soil type and carrying capacity is. It takes the guess work out of it before digging up the foundation.
Unfortunately this can also result in a bunch of new fill if the ground under the house is total ####, and I mean a bunch. Some areas in Boise have terrible soil combined with ground moisture issues and it's not uncommon for many feet of new fill and a drainage system to be required under a footer in those situations.
Best of luck!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I finally looked at the pictures and it all makes much more sense now. In fact we worked on a house that looks like it's from the same time period and had many of the same problems. Main difference was the upper floor cantelivered over the area of your pictures and was supported by a few posts with inadequate footers.
On a hill it's not uncommon for the dirt that came out of the hill to be used to regrade the lower portions of the lot, often resulting in terrible settling problems. On a hill you may also have a number of other soil related issues. Worst case is the hill, or at least the fill placed on top of the original suface soil is moving rather than the house settling into it. It's cheaper, although by no means correct, to simply move the soil from high spot to low spot rather than digging it all out and adding new base material under all the new construction. You milage will vary but a soil guy in town will know exactly what's going on.
Not to sound pesimistic, but some remodelers make a living out of buying hillside houses for pennies on the dollar once it's been determined the foundation/fill is ####.
Second thing I can imagine is a strange relationship between freeze and thaw cycles at the walkout. I'm not saying I understand what's happening, but we did have a house that appeared to stay level, when in fact the frozen ground would swell up around a footer. When it thawed the house would then sink a little and push up the sidewalk. Next year same thing. Previous contractors would be called to examine the footers in late winter, even measure any movement since summer, and all thought there was no upward movement, thus no frost issue when in fact the dirt had swelled around the footer, it just wasn't firm enough to lift the house load on the footer. Had they kept measuring they would have seen the fall in spring. Frost issues don't always lift things, but they can help them fall. Water drainage issues compound the problem and you look like a good example of poor drainage away from the building.
If it was indeed a shallow frost line issue I'd simply dig up the area in question and use the guidlines for shallow frost protected foundations to insulate the upper soil from the warmer soil near the footer. Much less expensive than replacement if that makes it then a candidate to jack and add to the sill to level the house.
When an interior slab as well as exterior wall have sunk it doesn't leave a very good feeling in my stomach. Slabs free of the main load bearing walls have little weight on them and if they have also sunk it's likely to be a larger and more expensive fix. Even on houses built on inadequately compacted soil, the basement slab will appear to lift considerably as the weight bearing footers settle in, not sink with the footer. Many new developments on previously flat farm land suffer from this as the ground is recontoured and might have 15' of fill under that shiney new door knocker. Colorado is full of that.
Wasn't this for a flip? Unfortunately if you uncover something very bad you might not be able to put the toothpaste back in the tube. In many states if you know something is bad and don't fix it but sell without disclosing the issue it can come back to haunt you. More than one person has hired a soil engineer to look at their house only to find it had already been looked at. Heck, even I would sue a seller who purposefully withheld that information.
Chances are it's an easy fix and everyting's okay. I'm just bringing out the issues we worrry about as worst senarious in case any of it applies.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Here are some pictures ( I hope) that will show the wall.
The corner by the electrical meter is cracked but covered by the bushes.
I'm a novice at picture posting so please forgive me if the sizes are inappropriate.Now that I think I can post pictures without dear daughter supervising I will try to get some better shots tomorrow.
Edited 10/21/2007 9:23 pm ET by 5brown1
The only crack I see is on the slab, radiating out from the electrical conduit. I would suspect thats a result of the water problem - poor drainage/slope.
We'll wait for a better one.
I would agree that drainage is contributing to the problem. A prominent historic preservationist that I studied under once recommended that all bushes and trees be at least 15 ft away from any structure. They hold moisture close the the building and roots from trees can cause undue pressure on foundations.
As for your sinking problem If you can, expose a profile portion of the foundation wall by digging past the footing. That way you can examine the material under the footing. If you have extremely sticky (like clay) or extremely sandy soil all the way past the footing you could be in trouble. Also look for non-native gravel base under the footing; its absence will tell you the foundation was a quick job (excluding that it is a pile or pier foundation). As mentioned in other posts, if you don't want to troubleshoot the problem on your own, consult a soils engineer. They are worth the money if you want a permanent fix. Don't forget that quality usually comes with a price, and vegitation should never be planted next to foundations :)
Here are the new pictures. One shows the cracks that are around the corner from the electrical meter. I cut the shrubs back so I could get a picture. The cracks are behind the retaining wall which I now believe held water and forced it against the foundation wall and eventually the footings as this is where the settling is the most evident. The second picture just shows the full wall and the areas along it that were patched by the owner.
Right now I think my best choice is to replace the damaged footings and foundation wall being sure that the ground will be able to adequately support them. I have a foundation repair company scheduled to examine the place on Thursday, but I think the owner's "repairs" may make problems for them.By the way I just want to say "Thank you" to everyone who has replied.
I appreciate your input.
Don't look like no failed foundation from here. Is there living space on the other side of this crack, or has it been backfilled?
Looks like a pressure crack from the other side - down low. Like something hitting it.
Without a better picture (sorry, this still isn't enough), I'm leaning towards an epoxy injection. Which possibly could be around $3K.
The photos here have really not helped me see much on this thing, too much of the overall scenario missing to understand it all.I also am noticing in this thread that some advice is as though the OP already owns it, but I think he is still investigating it as a possible flip.If those long tall windows are any example of the kind of work in the whole building, I would shy away from buying this - too much work to get it up and on the market - unless it has something else fantastic like a view or good location going for it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You are correct - I do NOT own the house.
If you have some other pictures you would like, let me know and I will try to get them. However, the interior is all finished and pictures there will probably be of no help. The yard is so overgrown it is difficult to even get good pictures.
The house is the dog of the neighborhood. It was built in 1975 and nothing has been done since, except attempting to fix the foundation.
The shingles are shot, the windows 30+ are #### and do not meet code in many cases, the HVAC system is shot, everything is outdated, etc.
However it is located in an excellent neighborhood, on the bluffs overlooking the Missouri River and valley. It has a very desirable view.
I hope to purchase the property at a price that will allow me to bring it 2007 standards and still make a profit. I am able to do almost all the work myself except the foundation repair. That led me to post here inquiring as to what options I might have in repairing the foundation. After I determine how to proceed with the foundation I then will be better able to make an offer on the property.
Thanks again.
I really don't know what to ask for in photos. May just be something that I can't get my head around, but they don't all seem to relate to one another.It does look like a 70's style. Back then, with the economy going to H in a handbasket, the energy crisis running hot and interest rates going up every quarter, we were building some pretty cheap plain boxes back then.Probably has AL wiring too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The interior side of this cracked wall is board and batten like the exterior therefore I do not know what it looks like. I agree that it look like an impact break but I don't believe that is the cause.
However as the adjacent corner is definitely 2+ inches low after an attempt to fix it, my bet is that the footing is broken below this crack (probably where it steps down).
Sorry about the picture - but I'm not sure what else I could take a picture of which would help. As I do not own the house I cannot expose areas I would like to look at such as behind the boards.
I agree with Piffin. $3100 will get the building supported and some of the demolition/excavation done.
You (or someone else) needs to find out what the problem is and whether the status quo is in fact stabilized. A soil engineer is your best bet but he may not be able to give you a definite guarantee without rebuilding the whole shebang. If I owned the house I would monitor the movement over a period of years before I would do anything. This is the only way to be reasonably (but not completely) certain that the building is stable.
Your picture don't show much. But let me guess what the situation is or what is commonly seen. I am guessing that the front street is up the hill to the left. The common problem was a road was cut and the dirt was thrown down the hill. The footings for the basement was not dug deep enough past the loose fill into firm ground.
Every year the footings settle, but less as time goes by. It does settle more during the rainy season.
Quickest and easiest is to unbolt the anchor bolts, jack the house up level, extend the anchor bolts and shim the gap with concrete. Install rain gutters to keep water away.
In the rich areas around Beverly Hills, Soils engineers will charge you $2,000+ to tell you to spend $20,000 and another $2,000 for them to watch it.
The remedy you suggest was exactly what the owner did in 1998. They did not install rain gutters. Therefore, I believe the settlement continued. I went back to the house this morning and took a bucket of water up to the roof to see where it went when poured on the roof. I found that about a 10 x 36 area of roof drains right down behind the retaining wall one can see in the picture (right of the elec. meter).
I also noticed that the garage has had concrete poured along the foundation in an obvious attempt to divert rainwater as the garage has no rain gutter either. Some of that water very possible could end up behind the retaining wall also. I can't tell for sure because of all the rock, brick, lumber, shrubbery, etc. which is in the way. I now am pretty sure that water collecting behind the retaining wall has led to the settlement. I also recall that the winter of 1997 was awful here with incredible amounts of snow and that spring there was basement flooding everywhere. That also may have played a role as the repair was done in 1998 a year later.
I spoke to the city building inspectors this morning and they feel that the soil in the area is not a problem. As there are a lot of areas here where the soil is a problem, I think they would be aware of problems in this area of the town.
I haven't had a chance to speak to an engineer yet but hope to later today or tomorrow. I will post a few more pictures later.
Edited 10/22/2007 2:30 pm ET by 5brown1
Hopefully the rainwater has caused it to settle as much as its ever gonna do. You can also dig the deepest hole you can in the corner and then 6"-12" under the footing and re support the footing. On time a hole was dug in the corner and we went down 12' into trash.