I didn’t fail my framing inspection today but I didn’t pass it ether.
Here’s the deal. 2×6 wall framing, studs 24″ o.c. all rafters stacked over studs. Nothing new there, right. Well I took the rough opening between the studs, 22 1/2″ and installed a few 22″ wide windows. I did not install headers for these windows as there is no wight bearing above.I did install a nailer but that’s besides the piont, the inspector wouldn’t’t pass me. He is convinced I need a conventional double 2x? header. He said he would get back with me after further research. Of course I contacted my architect and he said I should be fine. Any one out there have any experience with this issue or any suggestions.
Thanks
paul
Replies
Been there dude. Had a pair of sidelights that fit in a stud bay so I didn't bother with a structural header since there wasn't anything for a header to carry. Just 2x nailers all the way around. The GC called to tell me that I missed a couple of headers. I'm thinking, "how the he11 did I pull that one off". Then he explained where so I explained my line of thinking and he laughed and agreed with me. Never heard back from him, so I'm assuming he convinced the inspector that all was well.
Sometimes you gotta nudge people along into using their head instead of being a robot.
Evidently, inspectors cannot think outside the box.
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as absurd as that sounds, i'm not a bit surprised. we as builders will always run into situations where something that we know to be perfectly sound is questioned by someone that has no idea what they are talking about. like the customer who knows just enough to be a PITA. or the building inspector who knows even less. most of us have been in this situation. it's a hard spot to be in, but if he/she does her research you may have the satisfaction of seeing them return with their tale between their legs.
I had a run in with a local inspector on two houses last year. Never had a house fail before. Kind of made me mad, he ended my streak.
At any rate I had to bite my tongue, these were just the first two houses of a 15 house sub division. I didn't want to give him any more reasons to throw the red flags. He threw out engineered drawings and said they weren't good enough.
I came here and whined like a cry baby pee pants. Got some backing from the regulars here. And did three hours work to get the BI happy. In that three hours I figured out why I had such a hard time with it. I was taking it personally. I stopped thinking that way and it got a little easier to swallow.
it's hard to holster your (my) ego when good work is questioned due to ignorance, but that's why we get paid the big bucks. LOL
If the inspector says no go, tell him you'll take the windows out. If he says that'll work, ask him why.
"If the inspector says no go, tell him you'll take the windows out. If he says that'll work, ask him why."
Good answer.
No, GREAT answer! Gave me a chuckle imagining the inspector hemming and hawing over that.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
>>>If the inspector says no go, tell him you'll take the windows out. If he says that'll work, ask him why.Hahahahahaahah..... Beautiful; made my morning.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
saw this post a while ago, wasn't going to reply but .. headers are required, here's my reasoning, a wall structure works because the studs support loads, and internal and external sheeting prevent racking .. the window installation does not provide the racking strength, so even if you did take out the window it would have to be resheeted full stud bay or partial, headers are required .. In most cases probably wouldn't matter but there are limits to the size of openings in a wall beyong which allot of calculating needs to be done ..
Warning - DIY/Amateur comment to follow:
A properly sized header for a gable end 22-1/2" opening would probably only be a single 2x4 or 2x6. Not much racking resistance from that perpendicular piece of wood.
I've started a few replies in the past few days, but deleted them without posting. But, all this speculation is ridiculous. I'm glad some out there agree and are crying out for common sense. A double 2x4 header can span from stud to stud (24" o.c.) with a truss dead center that is carrying half the roof load of an upstate New York blizzard. Now add plywood....now add drywall...now line up the truss with the studs...I could never install a bunch of reduntant low R-value wood in a wall just to satisfy a building official. I guess it's a good thing I only play carpenter on the weekends!
The best comment by far has been "would it require a header if I take the window out..."
no way, wane.... not unless the window is within 4' of a corner ..
the racking resistance doesn't apply
the double plate is designed to carry all distributed loads in 16", 19.2" and 24" framing
so.. unless the OP is leaving out a pertinent bit of info.. the BI is wrongMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
In the future save yourself some grief, since you have an architect have that person give you a letter that the architect seals, and states that the deviations from the submitted plans are approved by the architect of record. Around here they are called "as built plans". I have a letter ready for all job site changes that I make.
That's when I drag out my copy of the code book and ask him where it says anything close to what he's suggesting. What else in the framing would then need a header for goodness sake. There's a good chance they'd just say to fix it and leave.
I'd ask the plan reviewer what his thoughts are since he has more experience than most of the field guys, and ask politely for him to talk with the field guy to ok the window. If that didn't work I'd ask for a new inspector to be assigned to our project and then order another inspection.
As a last resort we've filed a formal complaint and requested a hearing. This will typically prompt a new inspector to be assigned and a silly problem like this goes away.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Your construction does not follow the prescriptive code.
You need a note from an engineer.
How do you know what the prescriptive code is there and what specificly doesn't follow it? I think this inspector is not used to using his brain.
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All of the prescriptive codes require a header.
What about a gable end wall where there is no significant load.
I just use a flat two by four or two by six. No roof load, no need for a header.
Racking? If there is plywood on the corners, and there is only foam, and the windows are not in the first four feet, what racking would there be?
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
Don't bother arguing Bryan. Everyone here with any common sense already realizes the same thing you have... The inspector is wrong and is trained to be a code robot. But here at BT, there will always be a handful of knuckleheads who look for a reason to go against the grain just for the sport of arguing.View Image
Well, you know how it is. Just trying to bring up a few more questions to show the ignorance of the inspector.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
Or the ignorance of the Great Header Ranger
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not like this where the window is smaller than the stud space. Your reasoning would have a header over a duct exit from a dryer, a range hood, or other vent of any kind too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sorry, I have to disagree--I think these headers are a good idea.
Just my two cents. Now I have to run, I want to get an early start installing the LVLs over my bathroom vent exits today.
Maybe just me but could there be an issue you both missed.
These windows don't sound like they meet the fire code for emergency egress. Unless there are plenty of other windows big enough for a tank laden fireman to enter or fat old Uncle Charlie to escape you may have bigger issues.
Just a thought.
why not just add the header, all of ten minutes
Or you could try making some realistic manufacturer stickers for the windows identifying them as having load bearing glass...
It's B.S. but just might work!
The guy MAY have a point. But it's a bit of a stretch.He may be thinking that at some point the roof might be re-framed, and that with the changes there could be load over the window opening. Obviously if a house is re-framed, the headers should be checked. But someone might assume that all windows would have headers, so there's no point in checking the ehader on a window that small. Like I said, it's a bit of a stretch, and I would think it's open to interpretation. Just thought I'd throw it out...
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my house is concret block filled with concrete and rebar. My trusses set on top of the block. I have a 2x wall on inside of block to hold insulation, electrical and drywall. My windows are in the block walls. They made me put in 2x8(doubled) header in the 2x walls. Just because they have never seen 2x walls without headers.And you wonder why Wally world will not hire these people.
Ron,
So, tell me why we don't have to put headers between 16" oc studs when a 24" oc truss falls between them?
How much different would it be for 24" oc studs? Would the double top plate be strong enough to handle a standard roof load?
I don't know what the building code specifies. Maybe someone here could tell us.
I would understand if it became a point load. That's a whole different issue.
Bryan
P.S. - If there is no header directly under the double plate, and a point load was later put there, it still shouldn't drastically affect the window. The double plate may deflect but shouldn't directly transfer that deflection to the window rough opening.
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
Edited 4/25/2007 11:05 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
Trusses that fall within or at 8" of a stud are acceptable, IIRC. Over that you are suppose to place additional blocking below the plate.
I called my inspector, and ask about that very issue as it relates to 19.2" spacing. He hasn't returned my call as yet.
Antone have a code book handy to check the specific language?
Dave
Dave
Just last week building inspector tagged me for studs under joists 19.2 oc. Builder says insulating tomorrow morning, and we aren't going to fight the man.
We put a dozen studs in, and even some under the center spans of some girder trusses. I might think I know more than the inspector, but arguing, will make him find something on every house, there after.
I'd like to argue the principal, but my draw check is more important.
Greg in Connecticut
"Antone have a code book handy to check the specific language?"Here's a page from the 2006 IRC that should answer your question.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I was thinking along the same lines as you--even if a load were added later--roof modified so its weight lands on that wall, the load would still be transmitted down through the studs--how would any load fall on the window opening? With a wider window, sure, there are cripples above it and those carry the load down to the header, but here, that can't happen.
[PS--My car broke down in Findlay, Ohio a long time ago while I was on vacation. Guy at "Red's Radiator Shop" stayed open late on a Friday to put in a new radiator and charged me only about half of what he should have because he said I'd need my money for the vacation. Wish I had gotten his name. One of those experiences that restores your faith in human nature!]
Like I said - My thought was a bit of a stretch. But the idea of having a point load from a beam (or something else) is POSSIBLE. He may have been thinking that, or he could just have his head up his butt and not be thinking at all. I'd be interesetd in hearing the final resolution of this, as I'm sure others would too....
At a baseball game, why do they call them the stands if everyone is sitting down?
After rereading some of the posts, I got to wondering: If there is a header needed in the 22 1/2" space between studs because there is a window in that space, why wouldn't you need a header in every stud bay. Never know when someone might want to put a big load between those studs too."Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
If nothing else I would wonder what the requirements would be for installing the windows. I have never been called on that point because I have always used a header or blocked every opening.
Someone somewhere is thinking, "sure, we can sell that.....shoot, were selling hurricane proof windows in Florida for twenty times what they really cost, lets add structural glass.....we'll make a mint" ;-)
The key to the fun is to ask your window supplier for the order to be structural glass then be silent and watch there cogs turn . Do they finally look at you smile and say your full of sh** or do they condescend and try to explain why they don't....
Keep a serious face.
The first response, keep the supplier. The second, drop them!
Gotta have fun and suppliers with no fear.
Mine would look me in the face, pull his 25' tape off his belt and say into it, "Kirk to Enterprize, two to beam up!"
My kinda guy.
Dave
I'm thinking that 4" acrylic might be structural.
Getting it stamped might be a little expensive.
Where would you put the jacks?
>>Where would you put the jacks?<<Either cut the studs out and sit the header on top and add another stud/king stud next to it or use those header hangers.Joe Carola
Or just get a 22" wide header and turn it 90 degrees (so the header is the jack) and fill the stud bay from the top of the window to the top plate. That should hold just about any load!
>> Or just get a 22" wide header and turn it 90 degrees (so the header is the jack) and fill the stud bay from the top of the window to the top plate. That should hold just about any load!<<I don't follow what your saying.Joe Carola
I was trying to be funny--if you made the whole space above the window into a support, by filling it with a solid chink of wood, it would be very strong, but also wasteful and unnecessary, but it should satisfy the BI. I suppose the ideal would be a log cabin--all headers! Okay, I'll stop with the Earth humor. Edit: Not that there's anything wrong with Earth--some of my best friends are Earthlings.
Edited 4/26/2007 8:52 pm ET by Danno
My point also. There is no need for a structural header or jacks. Just a nailer.
There is on mention at all about this being in bedrooms..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ya ya ya,
I know and everyone here enters all the pertinent info with their post...
egress windows are required in Bedrooms, not every where.. That is not what the inspectator complained about anyway
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm aware of the bedroom limit.
I simply made an assumption that one of the windows might have been in a bedroom since sometimes, as I've said before, posters don't put all the info about their situation in the first posting.
Either way you go a header in a typical framing space, 16' or 24"o.c., is pretty assinine. As someome posted when truss framing falls between spaces headers aren't needed.
The simple framing using a cripple on either side nailed to a stud with a 2 x 4 sill and a 2x 4 on the flat at the head beefs those areas up more than just two studs only. You'd need to do this just to have nailers for sht rock and trim.
Edited 4/27/2007 9:19 am by jagwah
Sounds like neither of you used your head(er). However, you should be fine. Him, I'm not so sure.
Pinging Paul --
What's the end of this story?