Needed 5/8 x 13 inch bolts like… now..for a job we’re working on. Had never tried Fastenal, but thought it was surely up their alley. The local (North Haven CT) store was great. Called me back in minutes with availability, ordered mid afternoon yesterday, they came in on their truck this morning with no surcharge. Great guys, very nice store… If you’re in my neck of the woods and try them, ask for Mike.
PaulBinCT
Replies
Don't know the corporate structure of Fastenal. Maybe they're individually owned?
When I went in asking for grade 8 lock washers they looked at me blankly. I asked if they had grade 8 bolts. Yup. What do they do for locks? Grade 5.
I went back to the professional fastener place here, which is locally owned (stocks grade 8 lock washers and deformed nuts).
Good service is nice.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Well, I hope for their sake my experience was more typical than yours ;)
PaulB
after discount they are still higher than the compition... even higher than retail at times....
their on hand stock leaves a lot to be desired...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Ouch... Maybe I'm the only one who has been impressed? ;)
All I can say is that the three larger industrial suppliers I called around here were no help. I haven't a clue whether I overpaid, but they were here at 10 AM with no shipping charge and the prices certainly seemed reasonable.
Anyyyyyyyyyyyyway... I was real happy with them :|
PaulB
they must be trying....
for the better...
so much bad taste never went back...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Re corporate structure, it's an outfit that operates out of a small town near here. Public corp, but they keep a low profile, to not attract the Wall Street buzzards.Some of the stores are individually owned, some corporately. They also have the Fastool stores.I've made some pretty good money on their stock in the past. (Don't have any right now because I donated my last block to our church.)
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Tom, while you can certainly buy grade 8 washers (split or flat), I cannot think of any normal use that would require it.
Grade 8 simply means 150ksi tension, with the attendant increase in shear capability. The washer is in compression. Do a simple test. Take a grade 8 bolt and make a test sample bolted with grade 5 washer(s). Tension to failure. Notice condition of washer(s).
Loading a grade 8 bolt to failure in either tension or shear will not load the washer in compression anywhere near the load needed to crush a grade 5 washer.
DG/Builder
As pointed out by another poster, there technically is no such thing as a "grade 8" flat washer. However, there are hardened washers, and they are often used when assembly torque specifications are critical. An unhardened washer will tend to grab the bolt/nut head and result in a torque reading that doesn't necessarily result in reaching the desired tension in the assembly. A hardened washer usually has a lower coefficeint of friction, and more of your observed torque is translated into actual clamping force in the assembly.
VaTom,
Don't be too hard on the counter guy for the blank stare regarding Grade 8 lockwashers - SAE only specifies grade levels for bolts and nuts; there is no callout in regards to grade level for the lockwasher. In fact, the typical split lockwasher isn't even in the SAE handbook.
The reason there are no grades for lockwashers I think is this - what the lockwasher does provide is maintenance of a preload on the threaded assembly to resist vibrational loosening (it doesn't carry any load, it's just clamped in place) and this is accomplished by the typical split lockwasher being a small coil spring. To resist permanent deformation, springs are typically heat treated (hardened) to somewhere in the hardness range of Rockwell C 45 to 55, a range where they are strong enough to be elastically deformed without breaking and yet come back to their original shape when released. In steels, hardness correlates well with strength, so the typical lockwasher happens to be harder and stronger than even a Grade 8 bolt (RC 33-39) and well above the hardness range of Grade 5 or Grade 2 hardware.
If you bought lockwashers that met the Grade 8 hardness requirement, you wouldn't like them - they would flatten out under load and wouldn't do their job - they might just as well be flat washers.
Rick
If you bought lockwashers that met the Grade 8 hardness requirement, you wouldn't like them - they would flatten out under load and wouldn't do their job - they might just as well be flat washers.
Interesting.
I always stock grade 8 locks (split). They bite into grade 8 bolts and nuts far better than lock washers labeled grade 5. There is a noticeable difference. No similarity to flat washers. Also work fine with grade 5 bolts.
When I've got a particularly challenging application I learned to rely on deformed nuts. They hold when lock washers won't. For instance, my truck had/has no lock washers on it at all. Not much fun to remove the nuts, but they hold.
Something else Fastenal had never heard of. Another reason I don't consider them a serious fastener source. But I've only visited two stores, who couldn't understand why I found nylon insets wanting. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
What's wrong with Nylok nuts....I always thought they were the tits.....
If you think Nylok nuts are tits you need to seek help in a different forum.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
If you want a true locking washer go with this
http://www.nord-lock.com/
it is these only true locking product that will not fail under vibration...IOW it keeps a pre-stressed load where others will work loose.
http://www.nord-lock.com/
That was interesting, thanks. I'll ask about them. My locking nuts, no idea who makes them, are directional, with one face beveled and what appear to be 3 deformations of the outer groove. I've never had one loosen, likely why the army used them.
I recently used 2 when I couldn't find larger than 5/8" lug bolts to drill and tap a damaged wheel hub. New hub, $500. Couldn't get the nuts started in the abnormal direction, required for holding the wheel (similar to a lug nut). Temporarily threading the normal direction stretched the nuts enough to allow me to get them started. Whether they'll hold remains to be seen. Not expecting a problem.
That hoe got a replacement from Saturday's auction anyway. Hoping the next owner won't have a problem.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, I now understand what you're doing. Unfortunately you don't seem to understand how fasteners work. Like everything else, trial and error may seem to work at times, but there is no substitute for understanding and doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Split washers are NOT intended to bite into the nut or bolt. They will bite, particularly a hard washer into a soft bolt/nut. But that's like hammering nails with a pair of pliers.
There are many anti-rotation means and devices. They include deformed nuts and nuts with inserts (both one-time use devices), castellated nuts with split pins (requires drilled bolts), locking chemicals (Loctite for example), star washers, safety wiring and simple tensioning. Split washers are intended to maintain a small tension on a bolt/nut and will prevent loosening in some specific circumstances (generally fairly low load bolted connections not subject to vibration).
If you have a specific application, you can post the details and I or someone else can recommend the proper fasteners.
DG/Builder
Edited 3/26/2006 4:47 pm ET by dgbldr
That hoe got a replacement from Saturday's auction anyway. Hoping the next owner won't have a problem.
Better increase the limit on your liability insurance, just in case...
DG/Builder
Neither hoe owned by me, thanks. Mostly I run Cat loaders, considerably larger. These hoes are owned by the guy I've been moving dirt (and boulders) for. To date, he's been afraid to try operation, bought the first one 'cause I didn't particularly want one. I've just been driving it for him. And repairing it with him.
I gather you have very little understanding of liability laws here.
Regarding my fastener needs, I'm doing just fine. You disparage my ignorance. No current problems needing your esteemed knowledge. My fastener guy worked out everything with me several years ago. Apparently he doesn't understand either. For that matter, the local U. and the large construction companies that keep his doors open must all be ignorant, 'cause they buy the same locks that I do. That's why I started using them. Certainly not stocked for my modest needs. Hmmm.... Perhaps you should acquire a tractor and do some repairs? Might learn something.
Dg, you haven't bothered to fill in your profile and haven't posted much, so I don't know anything about you. Other than arrogance. Are you a Fastenal rep? That would explain a lot.
Update on split locks: thought to check my fire-starter paper pile. It contained the last 3 boxes. Yup, all 3 were grade 8. So, 3 out of 4, that I know of. 2 were from Midwest Fastener, Kalamazoo. The third without a discernable mfg, only USA and a lot of numbers. Haven't had a problem with any. I've used a few thousand over the years. They work. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I gather you have very little understanding of liability laws here.
You make an improper repair to a piece of equipment. Something fails and someone gets hurt. Ask your lawyer what happens next.
Perhaps you should acquire a tractor and do some repairs? Might learn something.
Too late now :( I learned the proper specification and use of fasteners long before I acquired my first tractor :)
Dg, you haven't bothered to fill in your profile and haven't posted much, so I don't know anything about you. Other than arrogance. Are you a Fastenal rep? That would explain a lot.
Have you looked at your own profile lately? Old and unemployed? Wow, you certainly bothered to fill yours. That's a lot of info and certainly denotes an impeccable technical pedigree. No I'm not a Fastenal rep. Don't even shop there. You need to pay attention. My occupation is on my signature line. On every post. If you need further details on my occupation, feel free to ask. Did I mention you need to pay attention?
DG/Builder
What's wrong with Nylok nuts....I always thought they were the tits.....
If they're working for you, be happy. Just don't re-use them, same for my deformed locking nuts.
My applications are probably a little more severe, dirt-moving machines up to 23k lbs. My truck, army issue, has only the deformed nuts. Before I learned that my fastener store stocked them, I tried hard split locks, which hold better than nylon inserts. For what that truck endures, far as I know, only deformed nuts work. PITA when you have to remove them and can't get an air impact in there.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom,
I don't know where you have heard of washer designations by grade, but i can assure you (fasteners are my business) it isn't an industry recognized convention. Washers aren't categorized by grade. If you can get your hands on either an IFI (Industrial Fastener Institute) Handbook or ANSI B18.22.1 you will see that the only mechanical properties defined are hardness and decarburization requirements.
IOW...no one in the fastener industry will know what you mean when you ask for a grade 8 washer. Even, the fastenal reps grade 5 response was wrong.
no one in the fastener industry will know what you mean when you ask for a grade 8 washer
M, you speak for a great many people. Unfortunately, not quite correctly. I'll take a look at the boxes, which were sold to me by a guy who only deals in fasteners. A guy very clearly in "the fastener industry". There's no confusion when I make my request. Unlike the Fastenal guys, he made my life immensely easier.
It would seem that I'm doing better dealing with him than I would have with you. No offense intended, but he solves my problems- without argument. If I understand you correctly, you're telling me that what I'm buying doesn't exist. Don't tell the tractors...
He also has softer lock washers, called grade 5, which I don't use. The difference in performance, as I said, is remarkable.
This is clearly of more technical interest to you than it is to me. ANSI specs notwithstanding, my interest is keeping machinery intact. My locks do a pretty good job. Where vibration gets the better of them, I go to deformed nuts. Have never had a problem there, other than the large amount of effort required to remove them.
Your writing style is reminiscent of a poster awhile back who tried to tell me that there was no such thing as DC only 7018 rod, even though I have some. Wanted me to traipse around the internet looking at technical standards, while all it took was opening a catalog to see the listings. Would that be you?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom,
I owe you an apology. Under the SAE standards, washers have grade classifications. You put enough questions into my head that it made think a little harder about this. I am goin to look into what the grading actually means.
UPDATE:
SAE flat washers were defined under J488 & J489. Both of those were cancelled in Jan 1990 and superceded by ANSI B18.21. The ansi spec has no grade classification while the SAE spec did. I do not have that spec on file and my sae handbooks do not list it. I do not know why they were designated with grades or what those grades meant. I was not in this business then.
Edited 3/24/2006 11:49 am ET by mcf
Edited 3/24/2006 1:09 pm ET by mcf
Edited 3/24/2006 1:45 pm ET by mcf
I owe you an apology. Under the SAE standards, washers have grade classifications.
Unnecessary, but I appreciate the thought. Turns out I was wrong too, at least for the one box I found. Does not say "grade 8". I have no idea what "alloy" means, but it works just fine with grade 8. No idea what the other boxes I bought said.
My normal reference, the Grainger catalog, also lists 2 split locks, zinc chromate ANSI/ASME B18.21.1, whatever that is. The other is alloy "For use with Grade 8 Cap Screws hardened... ANSI/ASME B18.21.1... zinc gold chromate finish". These correspond with what I've been buying locally, far as I can see, graded or not.
Designation is pretty low priority for me, the end-user who simply wants performance. When I ask for grade 8 locks, it's possible they (correctly) interpret it as a request for locks for grade 8 fasteners. Or maybe the rest actually are grade 8. If I remember, I'll ask next time. As long as I get something that works, makes no difference to me. As their primary customer is a major university, they generally know their stuff. Service, even for a small customer, is excellent.
Not to drub Fastenal further, but they only had 1 type of split lock.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, I think what people are trying to tell you is that it doesn't matter. Sorta like buying a UV-resistant cave fixture. It may "exist" or not, but it's irrelevant. Here is why:
Bolt grades have to do with tensile strength and indirectly shear strength (shear tends to be a percentage of tensile). Bolts are loaded in tension or shear. Washers are not loaded in tension or shear. They are loaded in compression.
Also keep in mind that in a bolted assembly the FORCE is the same (tension on bolt = compression on washer). Note that the stress is designated in psi, i.e. it's an equivalent PRESSURE. So the compression stress on the washer (in psi or ksi) is the same as the tensile stress in the bolt ONLY if the bolt and washer have the same cross section.
And yes, you can make a Grade 8 washer by simply making it out of the same alloy and same heat treat as a Grade 8 bolt, but there is very little point to it.
DG/Builder
Pretty sure I understood that.
Here's what happens with split locks in my applications: The soft ones act like flat washers with grade 8 bolts. Feel free to correct that for loading, but that's my observation, independent of my applied torque. Harder ones, designated either grade 8 or for grade 8 (as I explained in my last post), leave a divot in the bolt head when you loosen. A major difference in performance. Harder locks hold better, including with grade 5 bolts.
There is no similarity. And it is very relevant. Pretty sure that's why my supplier, and Grainger, offers a harder split lock.
In a pinch, I've even re-ground the leading edge a hardened lock to get its sharpness back. Works fine as long as the washer's large enough. 1/2" a little tricky, 3/4" and larger, easy. It's not simply loading, metal deformation occurs.
Whether that or something else causes the bolt to hold I don't know, or much care about, long as it works.
.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hey Paul, we have a new one opening real soon, local. I hoope it is a well run as yours.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" Iam not a poet, but your hat is singularily inadequate"
Fastenal salesman comes to my jobsites every tuesday and thursday and has just about anything in his van that I could need. If you buy a gun from him the air fittings are already installed. Compressors are the same way. He keeps track of the money I spend with him after so much he throws in nail guns, SWEET. If I need speciality fasteners I give him as much lead time as possible and he always comes through.
My overall opinion of Fastenal is good, although some of their prices are a little suspect.
You're entitled to sh!t.---Tony Soprano
I went in to the local Fastenal shop and asked about nails for air guns and the guy said they don't even touch them. There must be a lot of autonomy within the org.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I wonder why that is, seems like something like nails all of them would carry at least the regional favorites. Not the only thing I don't understand.You're entitled to sh!t.---Tony Soprano
They were one of the places that didn't carry the 8d coil ring shanks I needed. dude said he couldn't even find them in the catalog.
jt8
"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- Geoffrey F. Abert
I have one about 12 miles away, and when I've exhausted all other avenues for hardware, they are my ace up the sleeve, and they've pretty much come thru for me every time. But as noted, the prices are steeper, which is why they are not first on the list, that and they are a bit out of the way.
BTW, Fastenal is a publicly traded company (ticker FAST) that has seen its stock rise from the upper twenties to its current mid-forties in the last 12 months. For all you on the express train of equities, now might be the time to take your bootie and transfer rides.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I, too, have had excellent service from Fastenal. And paid an appropriately high price for it. To me, they're kinda like Rolls-Royce or Hilti, the best of the best, and priced that way. Not for everyday stuff, but the place to go for unusual problems.
When I needed to drill some 2 1/2" holes thru 22" of concrete, working in a crawl space, they came up with the necessary Relton bit for the SDS max. I also bought the Boschhammer for it from them, though I could have got it cheaper elsewhere. My opinion is that they deserved it because they took the time to understand and solve the problem.
-- J.S.
One of their stores opened up right next door to us.
I've never been in there, and their dang customers sometimes park in our parking lot.
Yea I've had pretty good luck with them. Never hasd to special order anything they've always had what I needed on had. I've dealt witht hem in several locations across the country never a bad one yet.
Na na-na-na-na na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na na-na-na-na !
I need somebody to help me say it one time!
Whew... I'm glad the tide turned in this thread ;)
PaulB
Paul, never worry about somebody having a different experience or POV. Just like with the two posters who tried to tell me about grade 8 locks. Interesting, but I'm the guy responsible to keep the machinery operational. And learned through testing.
What you were really crowing about was their service, which nobody faulted at all. Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to test it. I'm also well aware how lucky I am to have a locally owned independent fastener business available. Fastenal, with central warehousing, can probably get out-of-stock fasteners to you faster.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Last week, I need some 16mm threaded rod, and a few barrel nuts. I called a number of outfits here in Rhode Island, and they just said, "Hit the Road Jack", that is until I made a call to Fastenal, in East Providence, and talked to the man working the front desk, by the name of Berry. He said that the rod looked good enough, but the barrel nuts was a horse of a diffrent color. I didn't know until now that these stores are all tied together by way of computers. He called me back within five minutes, and said that he had found six of these nuts, and they were on there way. That was on a Thur. I picked them up the following Monday (Berry called me on a Saturday to tell me that my order was in). Berry impressed me, he kept a very clean store. Just about every think I looked at was priced. They had a clearance table, and there I spotted some bronze square drive wood screws. He gave me a price on three hundred, that make me dance in front of some other customers! I liked him and his store, and I will be back, maybe you pay a little more, but it comes back to you in the service they give you, and you just can't beat that!.................Pop
" Just about every think I looked at was priced."I've been to the Fastenal store here in Marion on three occasions (I believe). I couldn't find any prices on anything anywhere in the store.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I should qualify that statment, Richard, most of the large items had prices. Berry was the store Manager, and kept the store very clean and very neat. There are three of these stores in Little Rhode. I called the one that was the easier to get too. I don't know if I would gave gotten the same service from the other two. But, I would have liked to think so.................Pop
Not too long ago Fastenal was picked as a promising stock investment- analyst said they were expanding and doing well.
Glad to hear the North Haven store helped you out- when they were on Dixwell Ave their showroom never really got finished- but you are right- they can get stuff in a hurry.
Doug
Doug... are you connected somehow with "the" Winchester? Maybe that accounts for that big pile of cast iron you were disposing of in Knots? Whatever became of that stuff? (Inquiring minds and all that ;) )
Waving from Hamden,
PaulB
Nope- we are hoping to build a home in Winchester Center (Winsted) so thats on my mind a lot.
RE: Cast Iron- not sure - are you talking about the big band saw I am still trying to unload?
My busniess is in Hamden- where are you?
Dou
I'm in Hamden as well Doug. I just seemed to recall a thread on Knots where you had a monster bandsaw and a router table (? I think) that you were unloading. What sort of business are you? Odds are we've crossed paths...
PaulB
Hi Paul- manufacturing- we mold, fabricate and assemble plastic components for medical, electronic and appliance OEM's.
You?
doug
I'm now a GC based in Hamden. Until a year ago owned a large photo lab on Putnam Ave. Bet we've crossed paths...
PaulB
Fastenal opened a store awhile ago in city, 45 minutes from me, was ther once to look around, picked up pair saftey glasses an couple of screw bits, asked for catalog, they gave me both the tool catalog and the fastener catalog, both full of information & specs on all there products, about 1" thick each. Great to have as refrence if nothing else. I wondered what I would get if I spent big $$$$.
IF IT WAS EASY, EVERYONE COULD DO IT!
See NASA RP1228 at:http://<!---->gltrs.grc.<!---->nasa.gov/c<!---->gi-bin/GLT<!---->RS/browse.<!---->pl?1990/RP<!---->-1228.htmlIn this NASA Fastener Design Guide, the author states the following regarding helical split washers:"In summary, a lockwasher of this type is useless for locking."
DG/Builder
I live in Fastenal's home town. Here they have a store with one of their huge warehouses behind it. If you need something the store doesn't stock, no problem, they jog over to the warehouse and you have it in a few minutes. No waiting for special orders (a company town perk).
Other hometown offerings (that may be available in other locations as well) include a tool repair center for most major brand power tools and low milage, well maintained, fleet vehicles (all kinds of trucks and vans) for sale.
Fastenal's success is also good for business here. Last week I installed new kitchen cabinets for one of the company execs.
Edited 3/25/2006 8:42 am ET by basswood