Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 06:28pm | #22

   *
   I've actually read the fine print on the sticker that comes attached to many vinyl windows that states nailing or screwing the header strip will void the warranty. However, every window comes with holes for fastening on the header flange and I've watched many self-help tv shows where the "experts" blantantly nail every side including the header. I suppose this has to do with settling but I'm curious as to how important this really is, how others out there install windows, and if I should even worry about it. After all, the brickmold nails often drive through the flange anyway. Thanks for any input.

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 20, 1999 08:49am | #1

   *The vinyl windows I just installed didn't have the warning in fine print- it was in large bold letters with an extra sticker right on the flange as well. I followed the manuf.s recommendation of driving nails above the flange and bending them down over the flange...-Olav Ormseth

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 21, 1999 07:28am | #2

   *Thanks for the input, Olav. I am always one to try and follow instructions to the letter, too. But what I'm still wondering is - why? What real difference does it make nailing above, then bending them over or nailing right through the slots? Logic tells me that if a header is going to settle much even though you've nailed above the flange it seems that it would crunch downward and deform the flange and bind the window anyway. I suppose the best bet would be to call a vinyl window manufacturer and get the scoop. If I find an answer I'll post it. Thanks again.

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 21, 1999 06:27pm | #3

   *Bob - The problem I see with vinal windows is the structural integrity of wider units. With wood or alluminum the frame is strong enough to hold the unit in one plane, not so with vinal, especially when it gets warmed by the sun. On any vinal window over 4' wide I drill about a 3/16" hole, inside the room, up through the jamb. Then I drive a screw up through the hole, into the header, but not tight. This screw holds the center of the window flat to the wall and allows the header to flex without moving the jamb.I agree that nailing next to the flange and bending the head into the slot is questionable, although I did it many times before I asked my local glass shop owner about it. - jb

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 22, 1999 09:19am | #4

   *A clever idea I thought -- not exactly an answer to your question but maybe helpful -- is to put the header right up against the top plate, then a 2x4 at the top of the rough opening, no cripples. Then the window is much less subject to header movement ... perhaps you could fasten all sides.Still prefer screws...

2. 
   Guest_ | Sep 23, 1999 06:15am | #5

   *AndrewYour suggestion is actually a fairly typical framing detail around here(Ontario), especially in 9' walls, where crips etc. will also be used.This may actually help mitigate d/wall cracking at window and door openings, because the possible movement of a header (we call them lintels, up here headers are joist & rafter framing terms)is better nailed off into the top plate as well as king and trim studs. D/wall should never be joined at these openings, but movement and shrinkage can still cause cracks.-pm

3. 
   Guest_ | Sep 23, 1999 07:40am | #6

   *Do it here in CT as well.

4. 
   Mad_Dog | Sep 24, 1999 06:35pm | #7

   *It is done here as well, although I don't think minimizing movement is main reason. Larger width 2x stock will shrink and swell more than a cripple system. Or do you mean less movement because it is more solid construction?Dog

5. 
   Guest_ | Sep 24, 1999 06:41pm | #8

   *So when you guys use this technique, do you nail the sheathing to that floating 2 X ? - jb

6. 
   Guest_ | Sep 26, 1999 12:29am | #9

   *JimbobThe 2x isn't i floating.The window or door is framed as you would in ai non loadbearing wall, without lintel/header detailing. The rough opening "header" is nailed off the same as a sill, and yes the sheathing is nailed to it. Cripple studs are installed above as necessary per stud spacing, and nailed off between the window header and the loadbearing lintel.The loadbearing lintel/header is nailed through the top plate as well as through the king studs and is a very rigid assembly, especially beneficial in a long wall full of door and window openings. . . no more hinge points requiring extra bracing during framing.-pm

7. 
   Guest_ | Sep 26, 1999 12:54am | #10

   *Aren't the cripples there mostly as nailers/stiffeners for the wall?

8. 
   Guest_ | Sep 26, 1999 04:01am | #11

   *Uhh, yeah. Your point being???The cripples(or jacks as some call them) continue the stud layout along the wall line, at the predetermined centres, to provide wall structure and continuous nailing for interior and exterior sheathing. A wall has to have a continuous run of stud centres from one end to the other. Stick window and door openings wherever you like, but above and below these openings the continuous run of centres is uninterrupted.-pm-pm

9. 
   Guest_ | Sep 26, 1999 04:26am | #12

   *Just checking ... the cripples are basically nailers, it's just a terminology thing. Remember, "there's no such thing as a dumb question." It was so funny when first-year teachers would actually believe that!I look at every building site I drive by and don't think I've seen any headers done this way.

10. 
    Guest_ | Sep 26, 1999 11:33am | #13

    *Well I must have misunderstood the whole thing. I thought andrew was sayin' that with the header up tight against the top plate, and no cripples between the header and the horizontal 2X, you could nail the top flange of the window without worry that the loaded header would flex down and damage the window.andrew, did I misunderstand your idea?Patrick - I am familiar with the technique you describe and I prefer it to putting the cripples above the header. I think it's stronger and makes remodeling easier at a future date. - jb

11. 
    Guest_ | Sep 26, 1999 10:07pm | #14

    *OK, yb, you listen to me better than I do. Yeah, I meant NO cripples, to reduce chances of header movement messing up the window or the rock. And if there is movement it's easier to correct. I don't see any cripples needed with no load to bear and with horizontal nailers so close by the typically small space left above a window (maybe 6"?). With a tall wall or small window, some horizontal blocking should be enough for the sheathing. Too theoretical?So: Header size, if one is needed, would be unchanged by its vertical position. Cripples are an artifact only of putting the headers low in the first place.

12. 
    Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 12:37am | #15

    *In the immortal words of the Sundance Kid. . . "Just keeping thinking Butch, that's what yer good at."If a 4' or 8' centre happens to occur in the area above that door or window opening you better have an appropriate framing member inplace. Would it be fair to assume that you haven't done much framingi andd/wall??A better place to make a horizontal joint in interior drywall is in the middle of door and window openings, less butt joint to mud and fuss with, less potential problems caused by movement in the structure. Obviously a space of 6" is negligible, 2' of d/wall butt joint needs backing.And as far as exterior sheathing is concerned, 4' & 8' centres come where they come and need solid backing. . . period!-pm

13. 
    Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 05:13am | #16

    *Was that before or after they jumped off the cliff?In the immortal words of Patrick M.: "Uhh, yeah. Your point being???"The occasional backer for 8' sheets is well short of cripples on 16" centers and will often be unnecessary (with long sheets). Otherwise you're talking maybe one cripple? And my main point was in fact that "[o]bviously a space of 6" is negligible" == no cripples.

14. 
    Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 05:30am | #17

    *OK, andrew, now that I know what you're sayin', I'll say this, it doesn't sound bad, but I've never seen it. That doesn't mean it isn't one hell of a good idea though. The backing can be dealt with another way, but that is a different issue. Back to my question, how would you deal with the fact that the exterior sheathing, if nailed to the header and to the floating 2 X, would defeat any advantage you gain using this technique? - jb

15. 
    Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 06:04am | #18

    *Not really advocating something -- more like inviting discussion (I only advocate political stuff).The header being wide AND having a heavy load is going to have the most movement. If you nail the window to it, the window will shift with the header. Now, if you just avoid nailing to the header you have a little breathing room, and any droop is easier to fix. Anyway, what you're doing is allowing the window rough header and the structural header to move independently, as opposed to having both combined into one.It occurs to me that if the header is at the top it supports the top plate evenly rather than as a series of point loads. Perhaps this would allow a smaller header, or make an insulated header easier to construct. You're also less likely to lose that expanding foam air seal you sprayed in there.Just ruminating. Since I heard about it here, I look for headers in nonbearing walls, headers that are clearly oversize, and this place-the-header-at-the-top thing. Lawyers tend to obsess over logic -- an unexplained or overlooked detail can be very telling.

16. 
    Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 07:49am | #19

    *Hey, I am with you, I like to toss things around and say "why not" all the time, keep it up. It is awful hard to get a read on "tone" on these boards, so I'm just assuming that we are brainstorming, all the time. OK?I was just makin' a friendly joke about the handrail thing. I think you are right on there, and I think you are onto something here as well. And I came to the same conclusion as you just stated, that the floating member would be the header. It seems like it would be hard to controll on the job though, unless you have a very small and tight crew. A crew that "gives a damn". (Frankly, I have no interest in working with any other type of folks)You know what, though? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if serious framers don't already do exactly this. And with vinal windows becoming more prevalant as the norm, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this didn't become a widely used technique.andrew, I want to say something else. I have often noticed that people who are fairly new to any industry have a fresh perspective, and are well worth listening to. You know, like "kids say the darndest things"? So keep it up. It will help your growth and everyone else's. Dialogue is good. That's why we all keep coming back here and reading/talking every night. - jb

17. 
    Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 09:24am | #20

    *In case you didn't know, Bill, :-P means I'm sticking my tongue out at you. No (additional) disrespect given or taken!

18. 
    Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 09:28am | #21

    *JimbobA noble sentiment, your last paragraph, but pedantry really should not be encouraged.-pm

19. 
    Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 06:28pm | #23

    *Actually, "pedantry" would be teacher-to-student. Irreverent might be me.