All,
I’m doing a roof tear off. Any suggestions on the best way (fasteners) to hold down roofing felt (tar paper) prior to laying down the shingles??? The roof sheathing is 5/8″ OSB.
Thanks in advance,
WSJ
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Replies
If yer gonna shingle it right away, like same day, slap staples 5/16th"
If ya need some time, I use 1 1/4" button caps. I have a Button stapler for a LOT, but just a few hand drives are handy. I don't like 1" hand drives, I bash my fingers too easy.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Thanks Duane,
Weather can be an issue here in WI, so I guess button caps are the way to go.
How's your place doing?
Jon
Edited 9/20/2009 4:40 pm ET by WorkshopJon
we're whipping on it. Got my chimney up ( cast stone) and the roof wirebrushed and repainted. Porch roofs are coming along. Logs rechinked. Almost ready for some landscaping.
Its all about cash flow and able body..so far I have had a little of both. Both at the same time is a miracle (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Pitch and temp will make a difference.
Jim,
The weather here in WI is as unpredictable as a women. But thanx for the reply.
WSJ
But...you do know your slope. That's an important element. The guys here, in high heat (100+) puts lots of plastic caps in. Staples would tear out easily.
jim,
The primary roof is 8/12, and the temp are expected to be 75F day, 50F night.
WSJ
The 8/12 would dictate a healthy nailing pattern. The temp isn't anything too significant. If you are working off roof jacks/planks, then it's less critical about the nailing.
I've had pretty good luck using string along the bottom edge. A few stapes through the string, and the string keeps the edge of the felt held down. I tried the synthetic stuff last year and really liked it. Much better than felt, if you can afford it.
There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness. [Josh Billings]
If any wind is expected here the roofers all use twine to hold the felt down. It is first stapled in place with a hammer tacker, then one guy goes back over it with twine, running along the bottom edge of each piece and stapling it again. The lumberyard sells twine in a box, I think there's approx. 1 mile in each box. Works like a charm no matter the weather.
I'm in the middle of a 30 sq. job right now using 30# felt. We're using lath strips nailed down right over the course laps. Roofing nailer, of course, to apply. Spaced about 8 inches or so apart (end to end) so the rain has a route to drain. (These are added after the normal stapling) Yeah, it's the 'old fashioned' way, but it holds up nicely with 30# to fierce winds out here in the country and lasts well for a long time (even thru the winter) should some unforeseen occurance cause delay. Has never failed me yet, takes only a few seconds to apply and a few seconds to remove each lath strip when it's shingling time. Reuse the lath on the next job that requires it.
What about the holes? Do you put a plastic cap or roofing nail in the lath holes as you strip them?
?????
If water gets thru to the 30# after I'm done shingling.....something ain't right. IOW, I didn't lay the shingle properly. Those nail holes haven't been a problem yet. The paper is there to shed water until the shingles/roofing get laid, to prevent shingles from bonding to the roof deck and to prevent pitch/sap in the roof deck from eating up shingles from the back side. That's all.
If I've got a 'problem' roof to deal with (really low pitch or similar) that the HO wants shingles on.......I Grace it. No nails...... so no 'void' nail holes.
Will add a bit to my very hasty reply last night. Had to get off to the bed cause we roof again today, but it's raining out now for the next hour or so.
Like I said already, I haven't found those 'voided' nail holes in the 30# to be a problem if all else is done properly. The 30# is gonna get riddled with thousands of nails anyway and as we all know......those don't seal tight when going thru 30#. If they did.......there would be no need for and no market for.... Grace or I&W shield type membranes no matter who the manufacturer.....to protect from ice dams and such.
Where appropriate, we use Grace; eaves, valleys, etc.
I guess if it makes a guy feel better, he could keep a caulk gun handy and fill those 'voided' nail holes with a dab of roofing cement. We haven't found a need to do so and so kinda consider it a waste of time.
We get called into 'fix things' left behind by other roofers in the area....who don't get things done well and that includes the biggest roofing companies, judged on a volume basis. They say they'll stand behind their jobs, but when problems arise (frequently the very first time it rains)......they never return to fix anything. They already got the check and so down the road they go. That's when we get called. We find problems like improper sequencing of starter shingles, same for field shingles, lack of properly installed flashings, and goofs in valleys to be usual culprits.
I stand behind my roofing jobs for 5 years minimum. (Frequently, ten.) If it leaks due to something I did or didn't do....I fix it on my dime and time.
A few nail holes won't let too much water in even if it gets windriven behind the shingles.I didn't believe in felt till I moved to texas and learned first hand why it's necessary.
Why would you use roofing felt when synthetic underlayment offers so many advantages?
- Rolls out flat and doesn't wrinkle with moisture
- Wider rolls so less labor
- Seals around nail penetrations similar to I&WS
- Almost impossible to tear
- Traction surface built on to help you keep your footing
Synthetic underlayment is a superior product in every way, except for price if you value your labor as free. Titanium UDF is about $140 for a 10sq. roll.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Because roofing felt has a >100-year track record and no synthetic underlayment has anything even close to that. I know what felt is going to do in the 25 to 40 years those shingles are guaranteed to last. That gives me a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling. ;o)
Plus, the cost difference isn't small; synthetic underlayment is about 40% more expensive than felt, and costs a bit over 22% as much as shingles per SF. Since you lay it doubled, you must figure a 10-square roof will require 20 square of underlayment (at $280) plus 10 squares of shingles (at $625), so your underlayment is actually 45% of your shingle costs, and 30% of your total bulk materials costs
Use felt and that $280 drops to $80, giving you underlayment at 11% of your bulk materials costs. Huge difference.
You're not going to make that up in labour.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You don't lay it doubled.
and you do make it up in labor savings. I know, I roof pretty often. I'd rather take one roll up ( that weighs less) than 5.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Hmm, interesting; didn't know that. Does this stuff come with a stick-down edge?
As to hauling up 5 rolls of felt, nutz to that. The helper cuts lengths on the ground and tosses them up to me and I staple 'em down about as fast as he can cut and deliver the next course. Nobody has to manhandle heavy rolls up there on the roof.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
stick down edge? what are you talking about, you lap 2" as you do felt.
And helper on the ground pre cutting? LMAO.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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And helper on the ground pre cutting? LMAO. >>>>>>>
I'd agree at first glance, but then again...Dino may deal with roofs substantially steeper than what we normally encounter. 16/12 is about the limit around these parts. He may encounter roofs that are steeper yet. Tough enough to control a full roll on a 16/12.
(We use Titanium, RoofTopGuard, etc... too. Sometimes the HO just doesn't have the wallet for it. We try to work with the HO as best we can.
Since Jon's question was what to use for holding 30#.....that's what I answered. )
Steepest I ever did was 25:12 but we didn't put felt on that because we laid 3" polyiso on the roofdeck and it had a felted top surface. All we had to do was tape the joints.
Most traditional roofs here range from 10:12 to about 14:12; some 16's and maybe an 18 here and there in the old city in Montreal and out east towards Quebec. Bungalows are all mostly 4:12 or 6:12, but they don't count.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Maybe you lap felt 2"; I lap each course 20" and seal the downslope edge with pitch.
And don't laff too much; you ain't got enough arse to spare any.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
That is overkill.
so a 3'x65' roll is sold as two sq. using a 2" lap, you are only getting 1 sq. coverage your way. AND pitch?
What, is that the roof? Down here in 'murrica we put shingles or metal over the tar paper. (G)
And ya have a 2nd guy on site cutting and handing, yet you think thats still better/cost effective than one 10 sq. roll of Titain UDL? Which it and many of the others are wider than 3' so there are fewer laps right off the bat.
Sorry buddy, your way don't fly in my eyes. I'd get laffed off the roof if I did that.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Rolls here are usually are metric, so they're a bit wider; but whatever, a roll of felt covers about 450sf.
I&W membrane rolls are 3x65. That stuff I lap two or three inches, per mfgr's specification.
You also don't understand how I work on a roof, so quit laffin so hard. I keep a helper on the ground 90% of the time so I never have to come down. That one extra guy triples production over me working alone at only 1½ times the cost of me alone.
Diff'rent strokes, bro. You do whatever works for you; I'll do the same.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
My time study of ground "helpers" has led me to believe that they double the time on any particular job. I once ran a test. Me and a roof sheather against one guy on the other side of the roof, working alone. The lone ranger beat us!I'd be inclined to believe that if he's on the ground for 90% of the time, he's standing there wishing he had something to do for 75% of that time.
LOL. If he does that, it's because I'm not doing my job keeping him busy.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Lets think logically about this. The work is up there on the roof. What is he doing down there? My guess is that he's watching you do the roofing. In my little experiment, I was the ground guy. I was already an accomplished carpenter by that time and I know how to stay busy. I was NEVER standing and waiting and yet, the lone ranger beat us. We had DOUBLE the hours in our side of the roof. My conclusion is this: using a ground cut man doubles your time on a roof. This was for sheathing a roof.
using a ground cut man doubles your time on a roof. This was for sheathing a roof.
You may very well be right about that; and I hate like anything standing up there on a roof or scaffolding waiting for a piece of wood to come up.
But I think the dynamics are a bit different for felting and shingling. Cutting x pieces of felt y feet long one after the other is a lot quicker than cutting a sheet of plywood accurately; and there's no shouting back and forth ('I said 64 inches, not 54 inches, dammit!!') since all the shingles are the same size.
Plus, you have to remember that a lot of the places I do there is no access close enough to the house to do RTD without hiring a big crane that can reach a hundred feet or so...which isn't a realistic option. These are country homes and cottages on heavily wooded mountain lots. Last roof job I did we had to bring in the smallest boom truck we could find because access to the house was over an 8'-wide log bridge crossing a stream. And then the boom wasn't long enough to reach but the edge of the roof so we had to haul the packages of shingles up to the ridge by hand.
So my reality is that a lot of the time everything has to come up the ladder from the ground. The helper does more than just cut felt and pick his nose, and a lot of it is being a yo-yo....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I understand the need for a laborer to hump materials up. The crew I use doesn't care if I ground drop or roof load their materials. Their guy will hump all the materials up in a very short time. I've watched 30 square get moved from trailer (they picked up the load) to the roof in 20 minutes (8 guys total). The time wasted in using a cut man is in the measuring. The top guy pulls out his tape and measures something. The bottom guy pulls out his tape and measures and marks something. All wasted time. Compare the amount of time if the two people are there with the full roll and two tackers in their belt. One guy runs with the paper and the other guy starts nailing. When the roll get to the end, there is no measuring...it gets cut in place. I don't know that this would double the time, but I think it would.
Nah, I measure it once (or usually don't have to; I already know the roof size from doing the estimate) and holler it down to him; there's a three minute delay while he rolls it out on the ground, measures once and cuts the first strip. After that, he just rolls it out to the same spot without having to measure again. Just as if he were on the roof with me but nobody's struggling to keep 40-odd pounds of roll from taking off downhill.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Those three minutes add up after a lifetime of tossing them in the wind. You might have some efficiencies if every roll was the same. We all have our methods and reasons for them. In some very limited situations, I used a "cut man" too but I did so with full knowledge that it was taking me twice as long as if I did it myself.
The lone ranger beat us! >>>>>>>
That's cause you two guys wasted too much time tellin' each other tall tales and jokes. <G>
So you get 4 and half sq. out of a 2 square roll, with a 20" overlap? I mean metric is 39.37 inches vs. 36"
Ok I'm not laffing now, just scracthing me head on just what exactly is your process. And why the "pitch" and what kind of "pitch" Real PITCH? or black jack? Caulk tube or bucket?
You also said you staple the felt, what length staples? You have 3 plys at a 20" lap and 3' or 1 meter wide felt. If the staple is long enough to hold 3 plys, aren't they too long where it's single ply as you tack it down?
I'm not jamming ya, just really want to get my head on the same page as you. It makes no sense to do all that. (to me) I mean, if you need all that underware, maybe a new pair of pants is order?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Pitch?
Dino has pitch:
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Okay, real simple, now:
The rolls of felt we get here are one meter wide and cover about 440 sq ft single ply; I lay it double ply (~20" lap for 39.37"-wide felt) so I figure a bit over 200 SF of roof coverage including waste and yadda-yadda.
I use the same staples (T-65) to tack the felt in place that I use to nail down the shingles; yeah they're a little overkill for felt but they're fast and cheap. And they hold way better than T-50s. And getting back to the original subject of this thread, if the felt is gonna be left exposed for more than a few hours (or if it's really windy), we hold it in place with 1x3s until the shingles go on.
Using a pneumatic caulking gun I run a single bead of bituminous roofing cement--which is commonly referred to as pitch these days and yes, I agree with you it ain't what used to be called pitch--under the downslope edge of each course of felt to seal it to the ply under it. Some roofers think this could trap water that gets under the felt; I feel if ya dot all the i's and cross all the t's there shouldn't be any water under there to trap. My experience with this technique has been good, so that's what I'll continue to do. It takes 60 seconds or less to run a bead down one course with the air gun.
By the time I'm done with that, my helper has brought up/tossed up the next strip of felt and another tube of 'pitch' and I never have to stop moving.
As for 'all that underwear' you do realise everybody wears wooly long-johns all year 'round up here in the Great White North, don'tcha? ;o)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
What pitch roof are you doing all this work on? When I think of paying you by the hour and watching you double all the work, my mind screams "WASTED DOLLARS!". I'm beginning to understand why you won't bid a job....Just because you can...don't mean you should. If doubling it is good, why don't you triple it and then add a layer of doubled ice and water shield?
Have you a name , mfgr, or link to the felt?
For the life of me, I can't see a roll of 30lb felt covering over 4 sq. It must be huge around and heavy as , well, 2 rolls..LOL.
we won't EVEN talk about stapling the shingles.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Ooops, I forgot the OP was using 30#; I'm talking about 15#. Stuff I use is made by BP Canada.
And okay, we won't talk about stapling shingles. We already did that.... ;o)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
He makes his own pitch from burning pine during maple syrup season.
Others already hit on the doubling already, but you made me giggle a little with the 100+ years with felt... isn't one of the curses of plastic it that it DOESN'T deteriorate... EVER? Sure, UV may make some formulations brittle and crumbly, but other than that plastic has no real halflife that we will ever live to see.By the way, they have this new substance, called rubber, that is used to make covers for wheels these days. I know that wood has a longer track record, but you might want to check out one of these new fangled item called tires.You truelly live up to your screen-name! ;)
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
isn't one of the curses of plastic it that it DOESN'T deteriorate... EVER? Sure, UV may make some formulations brittle and crumbly, but other than that plastic has no real halflife that we will ever live to see.
Half-life isn't the problem; interreactivity with chemicals or other synthetics--and (as you pointed out) UV as well as ozone and similar atmospheric contaminants--is. The longer something is in use in the field, the more data users can collect about its behaviour under actual environmental conditions...as opposed to computer modeling and 'accelerated/simulated field-test conditions'. That's why a 100-year track record is valuable.
Toss a chunk of Poly-B pipe out in a field and, yeah, it'll probably be there long after we're all dead. But put it in contact with any compound that contains fluorine even in single-digit ppm amounts, and its molecular structure will start to break down. Within a few years it won't hold water. (And a few years after that it will be the subject of the biggest class-action lawsuit in the history of the synthetic building materials industry.)
Plastic is a wonderful engineering material, but despite what some plastics engineers think it can't do everything. More importantly, it doesn't need to, and its component compounds are drawn from non-renewable resources so it should be reserved for things where it is needed. When a new product actually does something worth doing that the old products cannot do, the risk of using it during the initial performance assessment period may very well be justified. But when the older product already does a perfectly good job, and there is no need to 'improve' it, it probably isn't.
Too much energy, time, and scarce resources have been wasted in reinventing things that already work fine.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I use HT-65 staples alone if it's gonna be shingled right away; if not, I nail 1x3 on the laps but space and slant 'em so the roof'll drain.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....