I am curious whether anyone has a favorite brand of residential gas tank-type water heater that they use? I am working on a current project in which the water heater will need to be replaced. This is for a family of three with normal hot water demands. Their existing 50 gallon water heater is 10 years old, and on its last leg. They are contemplating replacing it with a 75 gallon tank (for the two days a year when a lot of family members stay at their home).
I know that conventional 40 and 50 gallon tank-type gas water heaters manufactured after July 1, 2003, are equipped with a new safety technology often referred to as “flame arrestor”. This technology prevents flashback fires by trapping and burning dangerous gas vapors inside of the heater, while preventing ignition of the vapors in the room. Does anyone incorporate flame arrestor on larger tanks, i.e., on 75 gallon model?
Thanks for any input!
Replies
Steve, in '99 I changed over to nat gas from a 50 gal ele and put in American Water 75gal/75,000btu, Power Flex (through the wall blower). I also piped it to our downstairs central air system and installed pump, water coil, return etc. and it now supplies all of our down heat.We kept the 50 ele in line down stream of the gas heater, but never turn it on. The hot water is always moved forward to the ele "storage" tank on its way to the house net. Both units are wrapped with extra insulation, and sit in basement utility room with window partially open so the combustion air and clothes dryer air are not pulled from conditioned house air.
My point is that with clothes washer filling, dish washer running, two showers under way, and the central air heat on, we can not feel the effect in the showers.I don't think I could run it out of hot water. Your customer will tons of extra capacity over a 50 gal/40,000-50,000 Btu unless they intend to use for house heating or have a large hot tub.Paul
Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
Not quite on topic, but, have any of you heard of a water heater that has a stainless steel tank?
Our water is eating up ours.
When our TH was built, we had an AO Smith. It lasted 21 years before we replaced it, not out of necessity, just afraid it was going to to leak, or do whatever nasties electric hot water heaters do.
David, The Polaris made by American Water Heater Group has a ss tank and internal spiral burner/flue. It is 94-95% efficient. Lennox also sell a model that looks exactly like the Polaris.....
There is another brand that is a side unit for an oil furnace, but I don,t know the name. Sears carried a synthetic tank (ele)for a while, not sure if still avail.
When you say the water is eating your tank, what are your indications?
Short tank life with leaks, or a white sludge in the bottom or what?
Are you getting a crud of white or blue particles in the hot water faucet screens ? Is your tank gas or ele.?
PaulEnergy Consultant and author of
Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
I'm no expert. Water issues can get pretty complicated. This is what I heard and what might be going on. The well is infected with a bug ( micro-organism ) that eats iron and gives off a sulfur like gas. It is in the well water and in the surrounding soil/rock. We were told to dose the well with chlorine and did so only to have it come back. I think it just retreats into the rock until the chlorine is gone. It also has a thin jello like substance around it that helps protect it in corners and crevasses. I heard that the drillers carry it to the well from the previous well when they drill it. It's on their equipment.
When it gets in the hot water tank the heat speeds up growth so our hot water smells more. A plumber told me to take out the sacrificial anode because it had magnesium in it. That did reduce the smell. When I flush the tank I get black smelly water out of it.
We did get a new/big water softener and I do think the water is soft.
Since I took out the sacrificial anode out I think I've shortened the life of the tank and would like to line up something for when it does go out. We are on all electric service.
Well that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! Unless I'm wrong of course which never happens. Ha!
What you're describing is iron bacteria, a.k.a., iron algae. Many wells in this area are afflicted with the critter. Of course, its survival is dependent upon an iron content in the water. This is an anaerobic life form, which you can execute with the introduction of a sufficient amount of oxidant to the water supply. An attempt is frequently made by shocking the well with a high concentration of bleach, but the bacteria usually returns in short order or survives the treatment. Colonization of iron bacteria in a well casing leads to a thick layer of the bacteria and the outer layers protect those beneath them from the treatment.
The only effective plan for eradication of iron algae includes installation of a chlorinator to maintain a constant level of oxidation. However, because there is an iron content to the water, the introduction of the chlorine converts the ferrous iron content to ferric iron (iron in the precipitant form). While a moderate content of ferrous iron and iron algae don't usually have adverse effects on a water softener, ferric iron will slug the softener. And so, if a chlorinator is placed on the well, you must at the same time install a backwashing sand filter prior to the softener. Depending upon other content in your specific well water, you may be able to use the type of filter we use here which is not a green sand filter, but rather a simple auto-backwashing sand filter. I get these from Cuno. PBW10 or 20 model for a normal sized household. Green sand filters are frequently recommended for iron removal, but prone to problems in IME and I avoid installing them for that reason, if at all possible.
When installing water softeners on unchlorinated well systems known to contain iron algae in this area, which have all hit the same aquifer and same basic water, we remove the magnesium rod and replace with an aluminum rod. This eliminates all odor derived from the presence of the iron bacteria in our particular water supply. It works much better than just removing the magnesium rod.
Yes, this stuff can shorten the life expectancy of your plumbing and water equipment.
http://www.lenntech.com/iron-bacteria.htm
http://www.wellowner.org/awellmaintenance/ironbiofouling.shtml
A Google = iron bacteria ………will produce much more info.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I will try your recomendations when posible.
Check out Water-Right, Inc in Appleton, WI. The make what they call their Sanitizer Series water conditioners that soften and remove iron and iron bacteria in one process. Utilizes media of their own design that is not hurt by chlorine and has a chlorination process that gets its chlorine from the softener salt (sodium chloride).
Thanks for that link. Definitely gonna check it out.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
An attempt is frequently made by shocking the well with a high concentration of bleach,
I have heard of one guy near me who regularly throws some type of chlorine tablets down his well casing. He does this weekly. He ensures it is done regularly by doing it each time he takes his garabage to the street.
I did that myself for this well before I got educated ont he matter. It didn't work for our situation. What's needed here and in most cases is a constant level of chlorine 24/7/365. I didn't really want to spend the money on the equipment or put the effort into the install, but DW desired such.........and so verily I say unto thee.......it came to pass. <g>.
What a difference!! Should have done it two years earlier when we first took possession of the place. Doh!
Generally for sanitation purposes, a "free" chlorine residual level must be acheived. Tossing a few tabs down the casing isn't likely to hit the mark nor does it sustain the level. For my purposes here with the iron and iron bacteria problem, no real free chlorine residual is necessary as the bacteria will succumb to somewhat lower levels and a given amount of iron will precipitate with the addition of any given amount of chlorine....until at some level, all of the iron present would be precipitated.
When we started chlorinating, we set the machine (Well Pro WP3) to it's highest setting (pellets to gallons pumped) and could not reach a free chlorine level. After about a year, the casing was cleared of the iron bacteria layer and free chlorine became available. I had to turn the drop rate down. And later turned it down again. Now we drop pellets at less than half the beginning rate. We run no free chlorine residual and no one who isn't aware of the chlorinator could ever tell that chlorine is present in the supply.
Depending upon certain water qualities, a particular chlorinated system may benefit more from using birm as the media in the auto-backwashing filter than using filter sand.
I gotta check into that other system that was mentioned. Sounds almost too good to be true. Hope it's not :-)
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I had my iron problem solved for me when a municipal water line went by my house.
That's cheating. lol
Where's the feeling of accomplishment?
Not to mention.........no investment in equipment, no installation and no maintenance.
Nothing good can come of it. :-)
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Gold,
Quite an erudite discourse. Thanks.
Do these bacteria and their byproducts have any effect on PEX plumbing-specifically the Vanguard system which uses plastic manifolds as well as the plastic tubing?
I can see how there might be deposits on the plastic valves-how about the interior of the tubing?
Stef
I do not know. Jeez, that's a hard thing for me to say. <g>
I wouldn't think it would effect PEX, but just can't say with certainty.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Oooops.
Deposits on PEX?
Wouldn't doubt that. The stuff likes to cling to most everything it contacts and build up a layer of slime.
IB colonizes wherever and whenever it can. Called "flocking". Little flocks at first float around in the water and eventually attach to something forming that nice layer of gunk that thickens with time. Not pretty to look at, but supposedly does the human body no harm when injested.
I've never seen the slime cause a plastic toilet refill valve or the plastic softener valves to fail or malfunction, for what that's worth to ya.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
David, Goldhiller and the others have more experience than I, regarding your well water condition. You have figured out that the tank goes (begins to go )as soon as the anode is depleted or in your case, removed.
Hopefully you can solve the yucky water problem and let the anode do its job, which is to disappear. Aluminum anodes are used on oil rigs in salt water to protect the raw (unpainted) steel structure, and they will do the same for your water heater. Keep us posted, PaulEnergy Consultant and author of
Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
Thanks very much for your input. This particular home is two stories, and was built in 1930. When I remodeled their two second floor bathrooms two years ago, I installed a Laing recirculating pump that recirculates the water for the attic bath and both second floor baths to the water heater. I am sold on this and will be utilizing one in my own home. Simple but very effective for instant hot water.
Thanks again.
AO Smith
bobl Volo, non valeo
I haven't seen AO Smith around for a while . I have one in my house now (40 gal 40000btu) that gets the water hotter the more you use it . If you are the second one to take a shower you have to open the cold water valve . It has to be 25 years old by now.
in my new house I have a Bradford White 40,000 btu 40 gal power vent that is a constant problem . the tank is rusting and droping chunks of rust onto the burner . The burner fires up and shuts down right away now . Help who sells AO Smith?
in my new house I have a Bradford White 40,000 btu 40 gal power vent that is a constant problem . the tank is rusting and droping chunks of rust onto the burner .
Don - that's probably a problem with the venting and not the water heater - I see that from time to time on all sorts of water heaters. This can be dangerous - have it checked!
Often, it's when the draft is too strong! If the flue pulls too much, it can pull makeup air through the edges of the bonnet and block (to some extent) the flue gases coming up from the burner (the air curtain effect.) But it can also happen with a very weak draft. Or an obstructed interior vent, or bent baffle, or overfired or underfired burner.
Those can lead to cooling of the flue gases in the internal vent, condensation and rust buildup.
They can also lead to significant and potentially deadly CO levels - have it checked out NOW - be sure whoever checks it has and uses a draft gauge.
In the flue above the water heater, the draft should be at least 0.01 water column inches, and not much above 0.02 wci.
PS, I see a lot of BWs, probably because they're made fairly close to me, and they don't have any more problems or noticably shorter lives than any other brands, in my experience.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Edited 10/5/2003 8:45:50 AM ET by Bob Walker
The BW water heater is the same model that is installed in the shop of the place that I got mine from. I had talked to others before getting this WH . The exhaust vent is clear / unobstructed. the makeup air intake vent is slightly larger than needed for this WH. It has been checked out every year now by the service man . The rust is only part of the problems I have had with this heater. I think that this is a monday morning/friday afternoon water heater. Last year the water was coming out of the hot outlet at a very slow rate . But I could get a very good flow from the drain. I checked the hot outlet ,it looked to be pluged with plastic of a type that I do not have in my water system. Drilled it out ,problem solved for that year. The year before it was some sensor switch on the power vent blower . Basicly I have never had problems with a new water heater before this one.
Re the plastic - you got one of the models with a bad dip tube -happened for several years for several manufacturers - formulation problem at the dip tube manufacturer. This is well known - didn't your service guy know about this and explain it?*
Now that the dip tube problem is fixed, do you still run out of hot water frequently? If you are completely draining the tank, as the flue gases go up through all of that cold water it is not uncommon for the water vapor in the flue gases to condense inside the central flue and cause rust. (Often, when you light a burner on a heater which has been off for awhile, you can hear a dripping, sizzling sound as the condensation builds up enough to drip down onto the hot burner.)
That can cause the rust buildup you've noticed.
Is the BW heater the model with the metal screen at the top of the burner with rust stains all around the top of the screening?
Those models use a heat sensor to detect flue gases coming up to turn on the "power vent" so they have a bit of flue gas spillage ("backdrafting") each time the unit lights off. I strongly recommend a good CO detector be used in the utility room with those.
With all due respect to your service guy - if he is checking it out every year and doesn't have an explanation beyond "Friday afternoon" I suggest considering a new service guy (especially if he didn't know about the dip tube problem. If it was an assembly defect, why hasn't your service guy found it and corrected it?**)
Ask him if he thinks it could be an air curtain problem and watch his face - if he doesn't know the term, you need a new guy - especially if it's a powervent. It is my belief (although I don't have the statistics to back it up*** - so call it an educated hunch) that power vent models are more likely to experience the air curtain effect.
If it isn't a case of emptying the tank frequently, as above, you need to get someone to check the flue gases with a combustion analyzer. They need to check the CO levels and the oxygen levels at the top of the internal flue.
They should look for CO levels around 10-30 ppm for the first several minutes, with oxygen levels taking a quick nose dive after a minute or so. Keep testing, and you'll find the CO levels start to rise after 3-5 minutes
If the oxy levels drop, it's an air curtain effect. Rare, but I've sen it happen.
_____________________
* "Perfection Corporation is the manufacturer of 90% of the dip tubes used in domestic manufactured water heater units. This includes most of the popular brands such as: Bradford-White, A.O. Smith, and Rheem. Perfection Corp. says that a small percentage of their plastic dip tubes produced between 1993 and 1996 have been found to fail. When the dip tube fails, the amount of usable hot water is significantly reduced."
** I don't mean to bash your service guy, but a water heater isn't all that complicated - the "Friday afternoon assembly" explanation without a specific "here's what they did wrong" suggests a "Friday afternoon troubleshooter" to me.
*** I haven't seen an air curtain effect on a power vent water heater myself, but I haven't seen enough in my area to draw any conclusions. The air curtain effect is caused by too high a draft, so if the draft inducer is pulling too much air, it seems entirely possible it could cause that effect, but I don't know of any engineering studies on this.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
The monday/friday was my expanation , not the servicemans.
My understanding is that the dip tube is on the cold inlet. this was the hot out. I found this on my own when I noticed that my hot water had a consideable less volume then my cold .
I never completly drain the tank of hot water, but once a year for cleaning. I have never noticed the condensation driping in this heater. It was rather exessive in a Richmand WH I had a few years ago.
The rust is not a "buildup" but large flakes falling off the tank bottom as in bad steel .
The power vent is energized before the hot serface igniter is energized,to purge any gasses . Then lights the poilot ,proves a flame then lights the burner. It does have a flue gas sensor that was replaced in the first month of service.
Don, when the dip tubes failed, that Bob referred to, they often turned into small blue or white flakes. These flakes plugged the hot outlet as well as faucet strainers.
The other consequence of a failed tube is that the cold water was not carried to the tank bottom. It just short cut to the hot outlet.
Energy Consultant and author of
Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
I hate to be the one to step up and appear dumb, but.......
I know very little about water heaters. And I have no idea what a "dip tube" is.
Anybody up for an explanation ???Save water. Take a bath with your neighbor's wife.
BH - the dip tube is a pipe inside the water heater leading to the bottom of the tank - it carries the incoming cold water to the bottom of the tank (i) to be heated and (ii) to keep it from mixing with the hot water being drawn off the top of the tank for your shower.
Newer "self-cleaning" water heaters come with a little bend on the bottom of the dip tube which is supposed to keep sediment from settling at the bottom of the tank.
I don't think they do much of a job, and I still recommend draining water off the bottom of the tank using the hose valve on the bottom. At least once a year, more often if there's a lot of sediment or minerals in your water. (You don't have to drain the tank -just let water flow from the bottom valve for a few minutes.)
I've read that 1/2" of lime/sediment/mineral buildup on the bottom of your tank tank leads to a 75% decrease in efficiency.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Don - as Paul noted, the dip tube problem shows up on the hot side of the system as the plastic pieces get drawn through it.
You don't necessarily have to hear condensate dripping on the burner to have condensation issues. You can have a condensation problem without so much building up that it drips down onto the burner.
And you don't have to empty the tank to have a cold water induced condensation - just use up all of the available hot water and have the temp of the water in the tank drop enough to cause flue gas temps low enough to result in condensation.
In most cases where I actually hear condensate dripping onto the burner, the water heater has been off (e.g., a vacant house) and there is relatively high humidity in the area of the water heater. But I see plenty of water heaters with insufficient draft and rust from flue gas condensation without hearing dripping.
I still suggest that the odds are that you have a drafting problem and could have a CO problem and I suggest you get it checked by someone with a combustion analyzer (or at least a CO meter.) The flue gases inside the internal flue have to be read. (A Combustion analyzer is faster -if there's a draft problem, at the top of the flue, where you measure, the oxy levels will drop faster than the CO levels will rise.
It is possible that it's just a bum tank, but I think it more likely there's a draft problem.
What is the first digit of the serial number for the water heater?
How many gallons is it?
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
The plastic was solid , more like a plastic tee that had collapsed. My thought was ,If I drill it will I screw up the heater but on the other hand I was not getting water any way , so..........I drilled it and restored the water flow.
It is 40 gal . Don't know the first digit off hand.
Don, I think you will need to give that tank a good flush after you install a good dip tube. Without a good tube, you will not get bottom of tank agitation to flush out the trash. Part of the trash may be pieces of the original dip tube.
A caution that may save a mini-flood:Have a hose cap with rubber washer on hand when flushing out the tank. Sometimes sediment lodges in the valve seat and prevents the seat from a perfect seal. The hose cap will back up the valve.
PaulEnergy Consultant and author of
Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
I replace the factory plastic valve with a real brass ball valve. It gets a good flushing every year.
Thanks for all the info.. I'll see if someone in town can get the water heaters you recommended. We' re out in the country in Kansas so it's hard to get anything that doesn't normally come on the truck.
The water heater we have is a really cheap one and is not worth the trouble in my opinion.
I'm going through the house and upgrading it slowly.
http://www.hotwater.com/bobl Volo, non valeo
Thanks for the info bobl. The closest guy listed is about 90 miles from me . But what the heck ,if it is any thing like my old AO Smith it will be worth the trip .
Forced vent?
AO Smith quality is fine IMO, but the forced vent models are substantially noisier than those from Rheem. Depending on location of the heater this may not matter to you.
Edit to qualify those statements. It's been two years since I installed either of the above in FV, but it was certainly true at that time.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 10/4/2003 11:52:09 PM ET by GOLDHILLER