SIPS on outside of house, OSB/foam/OSB. No studs. I am going to use fibercement plank siding. Can I “get away with” using ringshank stainless siding nails, or should I use stainless screws to attach siding to wall? Hardie and Certainteed don’t appear to address this issue, most folks have studs to nail or screw into.
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You might want to look first on their web site http://www.jameshardie.com or call 1-800-942-7343.
There should also be a local rep you could call.
Their installation instructions mention OSB:
For face nail application of 9 1/2" wide or less siding to OSB, fasteners are spaced a maximum of 12" o.c. That's a footnote under Siding nail (0.091" shank x 0.221" HD x 1 1/2" long.
The first line of the Hardieplank installation instructions I have reads, "Hardieplank lap siding can be installed over braced wood or steel studs.... or directly to a minimum 7/16" thick OSB sheathing".
I faced this same dilemma two years ago, and got mixed advice from Hardie. I ended up using SS screws from McFeeley's, and they worked great. They are made specifically for fibercement siding, and they have ribs on the underside of the head which helps them contersink. They held the siding much more firmly than ring shanks, which I wasn't comfortable using at all. Not cheap, but a better installation by far.
I blind nailed my narrow Hardie siding to OSB/studs on 12" centers with hot dipped Maze roofing nails out of my Hitachi roofing gun. No problems.
Life and suffering are inseparable.
So it looks like I have a couple of choices. The local HD has 1-3/4" coil ring shank stainless nails on deep clearance ($50 a box), so I think that will work fine. I dread the thought of buying that many stainless screws from McFeeley's.
Using SS screws would be a colossal waste of time and money. I'd do what hasbeen said and go with nails on 12" centers. Galvanized would be fine, but if you can get SS from HD for the same price go for it.
I think some of these posts have missed the point that there are no studs. Having nailed Hardie into SIP's, i.e., no studs, I found that there wasn't really a great deal of hoilding power. Also, Hardie was skeptical of nailing without studs and advised using either furring strips or screws when nailing without studs. I think I paid $250 for enough screws to do my whole house. What would nails for a siding nailer cost? On a $3000 job, the difference wasn't that great. Certainly not enough to warrant going against what the manufacturer's advice.
Your point about no studs is a good one, however I was aware of that but also agree that it does make a better case for screws. BTW - what is the thickness of the OSB on the SIPs? If it were 5/8s I would probably go for it however I have never worked with SIPs so have no actual experience with the product. Further, you tried it and said nails were not acceptable. That's worth more than all the opinions in the world. Next time I get a house to that stage I'll have to do some tests of nailing only to the OSB and see if when I go to tear it off if the nails hold and siding break, or visa-versa.
On the other hand it never ceases to amaze me that so many DIY guys discount their time to zero worth. A few weeks ago I had a siding crew do a 2000 sq foot 2 story house for about $6000. Using screws I'm certain would at least double the installation time. An additional $6K in labor expense would certainly make the SIP method of construction less attractive. At any rate, I know your $3k price was not labor included. Must have been not a very big house either. If you truly work for free I wish you would come over to my job site :-). I always have punch work and no one to do it but old Mr. dependable.
Re the manufacturers's recommendations - you contacted them - so I guess you would know, however you said you got mixed advice. I'm pretty familiar with the install instructions though and I'm 95% certain that no where does it mention screws. Again though, the written instructions say you can attach directly to OSB - granted face nailing would be pretty ugly. I guess if one was to go with the furring strip method that would have to be screwed too, and then you would have to order wider jambs on your windows and doors.
At any rate, it sounds like siding attachment is a substantial hidden (or at least less obvious) cost of using SIPs - and a lot more than $250.
If it were 5/8s I would probably go for it however I have never worked with SIPs so have no actual experience with the product.
7/16s
On the other hand it never ceases to amaze me that so many DIY guys discount their time to zero worth. A few weeks ago I had a siding crew do a 2000 sq foot 2 story house for about $6000. Using screws I'm certain would at least double the installation time. An additional $6K in labor expense would certainly make the SIP method of construction less attractive. At any rate, I know your $3k price was not labor included. Must have been not a very big house either.
Good points. I do tend to discount my time, especially since it takes me so much longer than pros anyway! I also work alone, which makes things even more time consuming. I also find that DIY guys, myself included, tend to either overbuild or underbuild. I almost always overbuild, both out of a lack of experience and from the knowlege that the house will be my family's home for many years to come. While that's not necessarily a problem, it does tend to add to time and cost. Were I a professional contractor, I would be bankrupt before long.....
Re the manufacturers's recommendations - you contacted them - so I guess you would know, however you said you got mixed advice. I'm pretty familiar with the install instructions though and I'm 95% certain that no where does it mention screws. Again though, the written instructions say you can attach directly to OSB - granted face nailing would be pretty ugly. I guess if one was to go with the furring strip method that would have to be screwed too, and then you would have to order wider jambs on your windows and doors.
The real problem I ran into with Hardie was that they weren't able to provide real firm answers based on accepted practice. They seemed somewhat unsure about the right way to attach it to SIP's, which explains why I got such conflicting advice. Compounding that problem was the fact that, two years ago, I don't think the availability of suitable screws was that widespread and that Hardie didn't seem ready to officially authorize a particular method of installation on SIPs. That may well have changed as SIPs are more common now then they were back then. Lacking conclusive advice from them, I chose what I thought would be the safest way to install even if at additional time and cost. I wanted the original poster to know that there was another method of attachment and that I, personally, found nailing to be iffy.
PS - re SIPS, How do you hang the exterior doors and windows? What about attachment of interior finishes? I'm guessing no nails? Trim and everything? What about cabinets? Just trying to learn somehting here...
When doing the cutouts for exterior windows and doors, you use an electric heating element to cut out some of the foam from around the opening. You then cut 2x material to size, place it in the defoamed area between the osb sandwich, and nail through the osb into the 2x. This gives your openings a solid perimeter. On the inside, drywall gets screwed directly to the osb, in our case, before the panel goes on over the timberframe. All trim gets nailed through the drywall and osb, and it seems to hold pretty well. My kitchen doesn't have a ton of upper cabinets, but what we do have is screwed into the walls the same way.
Sorry - Just a few more Qs: what is the overall thickness of a SIP? Do they come in different thicknesses? What type offoam is used?
Thanks...
Sorry - Just a few more Qs: what is the overall thickness of a SIP? Do they come in different thicknesses? What type offoam is used?
SIP's come in a variety of thicknesses and corresponding R values. The R values, when compared to fiberglass, may be a bit misleading. Fiberglass R values tend to reflect more of an ideal or maximum rating, and the reality often falls short. It also doesn't take into account thermal bridging through studs and doesn't prevent air infiltration. SIP's don't have any of these problems, so I would say that R38 with fiberglass is not as good as R38 from SIP's. How much worse, I have no real clue.
The available thicknesses for SIP's often reflect the thickness you would get from a framed wall. In other words, you can get SIP's in thicknesses which match what you would get with a framed and sheathed 2x4, 2x6, or 2x8 wall/roof. This makes it easier when ordering windows and doors without custom jamb extensions.
The foam used has a technical poly-something name, but it is basically very similar to what coffee cups are made from, I believe. They might be available in fancier foams as well
expanded poly styrene is what you refer to...banned from house boat and dock flotation systems in NC due to degradation and pollution..about an R5 per in.
Extruded Polystyrene ( blue or pink fomular type) same R , but less fracture.
I have found polyisocyanurate at 12.6 per 2" ( and a slightly higher cost than R10 extruded) to be the best bang for the buck..R for R..it is cheaper. Sold to me by a roofing supply ( ABC)..witha skin of Fiberglass on both sides, it was the ticket for my application.
They all are not meant to be exposed to UV for extended time, but IMO the poly iso is far better. For instance, it cuts a heck of a lot easier, no hot knife needed. It will dull any knife, but a good high carbon steel can be resharpened right quick..I use a Case kitchen knife..a duct board knife would be cool, but mine got legs.
I think some manus MAY make SIPS in PolyISo, if I were to go that way , I 'd check into it.
About melting in the RO's for stuff...I think expanded is better,,poly iso doesn't seem to like being treated that way..which brings me to here.
In the event of fire? Expanded will drip and really black smoke ya out..I don't have data on polyiso..do you? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I don't have any data on them. When I built, my manufacturer only offered the expanded, so that's what I got. I'm sure you are right about the poly iso- I was a bit surprised to see coffe cups inside my 'high tech' wall panels!
Sphere-
The industry flaks like to talk up the fire safety of polyiso:
Polyiso passes both the ANSI UL 1256 and FM 4450 fire tests without a thermal barrier. Polyiso, a thermoset material, stays intact during fire exposure in the ASTM E84 or “Tunnel Test.” It forms a protective char layer and remains in place during this test, thereby meeting all building code requirements and contributing to a fire-safe building.
From the Polyisocyanurate Insulation Manufacturers Association
http://www.pima.org/product.htm
When you buy expensive siding that is supposed to last a lifetime, why not spend the money on the fasteners too! I would go with screws. I bent so many nails putting up cement siding because if you don't hit the nail just right or the siding is a little away from the sheathing, the stupid nails bend. Or maybe it is operator error!? Also it's also a lot easier to fix a piece that slipped a little.
Plus, I am anti-my-dad's philosophy "don't do it right, do it twice".
Tim
>> When you buy expensive siding that is supposed to last a lifetime, why not spend the money on the fasteners too! I would go with screws. <<
At around $5 a "board", I wouldn't call it very expensive. Re screws, why do you need that much holding power for a product that can easily be ripped from the house (breaks off around the fasteners)? Doing new construction I have often had to replace Hardie siding that was damaged by tradesmen. It comes off unbelievably easily.
As far as your experience with nailing, it is somewhat difficult to hand nail. Professional's using nail guns have little trouble if any. Sounds like you hand nailed...
We re-sided our house with Hardie and I ended up using screws instead of nails. To do a decent job, you have to drill holes for the nails anyway, so there really isn't much extra work for the screws. I've seen the work done by crews who just shoot nails into the plank and they always end up with holes from going too deep, nail heads sticking up, and nails that miss studs. Then to make up for their screw-ups, they shoot extra nails at the bottom of the planks which leave divots that have to be filled or caulked.A nail gun may be fast, but it isn't always good.
I built a SIP house a couple of years ago, the sip manufacture suggested ss ring shank which I used. my concern was the added weight the siding gets from moisture.
as a note the only thing I did not like about my SIP house was how hard it was to hear inside of it when it was finished. we did not put carpet in the house so there was little in the was of soft surfaces. The SIP walls "bounced sound waves off each other so the noise made it hard to hear. I hated it. I should say that the open floor planned added to the problem
Just asking a question out of ignorance here about attaching fiber cement products:
How to you hide the fasteners and butted edges on fiber cement siding? I gues I'm thinking more about the 4x8 sheet style rather than the board style.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
OK - so how about getting back to us and telling us what you actually did...
The common assumption here is that most people ask a question, about methods or materials, ten minutes before their deadline. I aks a long time in advance, I do my homework, and in this case the siding won't be going on for another three or four weeks at the earliest. So I'll let you know.
I am leaning towards the nails, simply because I have a coil siding nailer, and HD has the stainless nails really cheap ($50 a box, vs $160 for the same product through McFeeley's). We'll try 'em, see how they work, and if they don't work well, I know where to get the fiber cement screws.
I'd definately give the nails a try before putting myself in screw hell... Even if I had to screw it (or have it done) I'd still tack each piece in place with a nail gun first.
I worked on a SIPS house last year. Blue, you saw it. Seemed like a great idea. I bid the trim thinking how can the framers fock up a bunch of panels? LOLGetting things to stick to the panels is the least of the problems, it turns out. The plans were given to a panelized manufacturer, whose name escapes me at the moment, but they're big, and advertise in FHB. They were to cut out all the openings, and rout chases in the foam for wiring and plumbing. All the openings had 2x6s let into the foam. Panel company also sent along an electric melter thing to do what Mike is talking about to any after the fact openings.This house had 16 exterior doors (10 french full glass, 3 single full glass, the rest 1/2 glass...we're saving energy now<G>). As I was setting the last door, the framing sub asked me if I'd noticed the loose 2x6 studs. RuhhhRooooh. Apparently, lots of the door openings had 2x6s with a couple of drywall screws holding them in. They were removable so the electrician could find the chases. I mentioned this to the electrician who was over in a corner, sobbing. Seems even with the electrical plan, the panel guys hadn't gotten the chases even close, and they had put blocks in to stop any wire from where it was really supposed to go. One of the few times I wasn't wishing I was an electrician.There were two different sizes of exterior doors, 6-0 & 3-0. There weren't two ROs that were the same.I'm only relating things I had first hand knowledge of. There seems to be a pretty steep learning curve for SIPs. I saw the builder recently, and he thought the cost of the house was ridiculous. He especially mentioned electrical pushing the price way up. And, just judging from the amount of foam particles I cleaned up, I have to wonder how efficient this house actually is. Honestly, I think it's the way stuff is going to be built, and we'd better all get on the train. There's just a lot of stuff to learn and pull together to make it work like it's supposed to.
"what's in a name?" d'oh!
Holly, I didn't realize that the house we toured was a SIP. Now that I'm thinking about it, it makes sense that it had so much volume.
I agree that the learning curve would be high. I think the key would be to have a competent superintendent that pulls all the things together.
blue
Innovative builder is doing a spec across the road from my project, and he is using Insulspan SIPs, combined with a Timberpeg frame package. He's so adventurous, he threw all his 'crete bids in the fire and did his own ICF foundation under it.
I chatted with him about how he will run his electricals, and he said that over 90 percent of his receps will be floor-mounted, and that most all the other power will be run in box chases that will be integrated into the trimout.
He's strapping the few exterior walls that have cabinetry runs, so there is plenty of blocking, and wirechase room for the plugmold strips, undercabinetry lighting, power for applicances, wallmount receps, etc.
The thing I like about trimming over SIP walls, and I have only done it once, is how nice and linear everything is, as compared to gyprock over stickframe. We are doing Hardiplank over 2x6 stickframed walls right now (and I've no one to blame but myself), and the curvy lines are making me cringe! And I know I am going to be cringing doubly when we are inside and running all the hardwood trim.
JonE, I attended a HardiePlank seminar. The rep explicitly told us that we could fasten the hardie directly to the osb using nails. I specifically asked him again if I had to hit the studs and he said "no, you do not have to hit the studs". I asked if we could use roofing nails. He said "yes". I asked if the roofing nails had to hit studs. He said "no".
So, we used to use our coil roofing nail and just nail it about 12" oc. I recently drove through that sub and all the siding is still on.
blue