Guy I work with is putting up trim–base baords, door casing, crown molding. He caulks the miters and along the joint between trim and wall. He was also using caulk on nail hioles, but it shrank and left little dimples. All trim is painted, not stained. Then he started having me use white putty to fill nail holes and the dimples. The putty wouldn’t stay in the already caulked and painted nail holes, and it didn’t take paint well. (I tried to read him the directions that said do all finishing first before applying putty, but he said that only applies to stain.)
I ended up using drywall mud to fill nail holes and where the caulk shrank and left grooves in the miter.
Is there something better and easier? I don’t understand why he can’t get the miters to fit tightly–he nails up the sides of the door trim, then marks the top trim, cuts it and nails it to the edge of the casing, but no nails or glue in the miter. I was thinking of using wood dough that actually gets hard (rather than putty, which always stays sort of soft) and using it before even painting the primer. Some of the trim has been pre-painted with primer and two coats of semi-gloss white. (The white putty, BTW, is more gray and stands out unless you paint over it).
Anyway, the trim looks like a gloppy mess to me the way we’re doing it. Any hints or suggestions?
Replies
Danno,
3 Suggestions:
1) Find somebody else to work with.
2) Find somebody else to work with.
3) Find somebody else to work with.
For nail hits, use a crayon.
For miters, back bevel the suckker and make the face snug.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
There isn't much you can do with what has been done. Grampa always said, "you can't shine $h!t". Somebody on this forum has the tag line, "caulking is not trim". Maybe you should tell your trim guy. It is not appropriate for filling nail holes and there should be no need for it in miters that fit! Ordinary joint compound is porous and will absorb moisture and work it's way out of the nail hole in time. I've used a lot of nail hole fillers over the years. Right now, I'm using Zar wood patch, easy to use and will take stain. I don't know if it will stick in a nail hole that has been caulked, especially if it was a silicone caulk.
Ideally, the trim would be installed, nail holes filled, sanded and gaps along walls caulked. The filler receives two coats of pigmented shellac to prevent ghosting. The entire surface is primed and then top coated. Today we often prime and apply one top coat before installing. The nails get filled, sanded and wall joints caulked then the second top coat is applied. Both the caulking and filling should be done neatly. A finger mushed caulk line will pull and curl later. Gobs of filler will telegraph through the top coat. Oily, waxy putty's, crayons, wood dough, may bleed through a top coat only.
I do glue my miters with ordinary yellow glue. End grain butt joints aren't famous for holding a glue joint but it can't hurt. I like to place a nail in the miter, coming in through the thickest part of the casing. Just one is enough and make sure it goes in straight. Paint doesn't hide defects. If you want a nice smooth surface you have to start with one and use the proper materials in order. The "We bang 'em, you buy 'em" approach gets the job done but isn't high on refinement. The good thing is, you won't see a lot of it once the furnishings are in and curtains hung.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
If we do paint grade trim we have our painter prime and single coat it in the shop. To fill the nail holes we use light weight spackle or a wood filler, then final coat of paint.
For traditional colionial trim try nailing the bottom portion of the head piece only then glue and cross pin your miters. Then work down the legs and the top portion of the head piece. If you have several doors to do you can let the glue set up for a little while if you have one that looks like it might want to open up.
Any trim out of 3/4 or thicker stock I'll pre-assemble with pocket screws.
As the other guy said, find someone else to work for. I believe you've complained about this guys lack of quality work in the past, maybe mistaken though.
When you say " or a wood filler" what do you use? I like rockhard putty, but your post left me wondering.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
One of the latex quick dry brands, ZAR makes one, Minwax makes one.
Never tried Rockhard.
Ok, thanks..I know Zar pretty well.
Durhams Rock hard is water soluble, I mix it with TB glue instead..awesome stuff.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Thanks to all of you who replied. Yeah, I've complained about this guy before. I was hoping I could tell him a better approach to doing this, but he is resistant to doing things differently. At least now I know a better way to do it!
(When we removed the old trim, joints and miters were tight and the miters were cross nailed. I thought this may have given him a clue, but alas, not!)
(I went to prime one door casing and noticed it was at least a quarter inch from being flush with the drywall, so I pointed it out. When slamming it with a board-cushioned (sometimes) hammer didn't work, he cut the nails and renailed it--this time the top is flush but the middle and bottom are out about 3/16". He blamed it on crooked walls, but on the other side of the wall, it is in about 3/16". Sigh....)
Danno, Seriously look for better work lol...
If you want to learn this stuff, try to learn from the best, there is something to be said from seeing a true hack in action and what you can learn though I think you would be much better off working for someone a little more.... quality and open minded.
What part of the counrty are you in?
I'm in mid-Michigan. I'm pretty sure the framer I used to work with would take me back, but I stopped framing because my knees hurt so bad and they haven't gotten any better. I sort of feel like the guy I work with needs me, but he doesn't really know it. I am much more meticulous than he is, and I catch lots of his mistakes, but often cannot convince him they are mistakes. Like Don K. keeps telling me, I need to get my license and work on my own. I just feel that I may be too old at this point to do that (53). May need arthroscopic surgery on knees--see doc on Tuesday and will know then about the right one (just had MRI a week ago and he has the results). They would only look at one knee per appointment, so I chose the one that usually hurts, though the left has been causing me to limp since late October, so....
On the other hand, the downtown development authority is having another competition--this time to design and build a bench downtown. Had pretty good luck with their last competition and that sculpture ended up being bought by an architectural firm (unfortunately, the money went to the DDA, not me).
"sculpture ended up being bought by an architectural firm "DUH!At least introduce yourself and let them know what kind of work you do..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I've had my left knee scoped twice (15 and 25). Since the second surgery I have had hyaluronic acid injections and would recommend looking into that before having surgery. At least discuss it with your doctor. I had an injection once a week for five weeks.
Good luck
TB?
TB?
It took me a few moments to figure it out... Titebond
I was wondering the same thing. I stopped thinking about it after five seconds though. Thanks for the interpretation.
blue
Tite Bond glue.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Durhams Rock hard is water soluble, I mix it with TB glue instead..awesome stuff.I do the same but only when the fill needs to be structural, and larger holes etc. That stuff is great but it's almost too hard.
Durhams is just as water soluable as cement and durabond. Great stuff but like a rock when mixed and cured.
I find Zinsser's MH Ready Patch spackle (I get it at the BORG) to be great for filling holes in wood that's to be painted. Doesn't shrink, dries smooth, fast and is pretty hard, too.
Jason
I get it at the BORG
Now that there is funny. Resistance is futile!
Jason -
I agree with you generally about MH spackle. One place we do not agree is shrinkage. MH does shrink - maybe not as much as others, but it shrinks and leaves pockmarks. Needs two coats if you want it to look better.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Danno -
I know that I have talked with you in the past about getting your license. I think I've said basically if you don't take the test, you aren't going to get it for sure. If you take it and don't pass, so what ??? (By the way, you seem to have some pretty good background, and theoretical skills. Why are you so worried?)
But you missed my other message. I think maybe I've been a little too indirect in the past. Let me try again, with some different words.
How do I put this, without being quite so delicate?
Get away from the wh*ore you are working for. Find somebody, anybody else !!!! Do it tomorrow.
Hopefully you got the concept this time. [G].
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I got/get your message! I just feel an obviously misplaced loyalty to this guy! I feel I'd be letting him down if I left.
I feel I'd be letting him down if I left.
Don't you owe some loyalty to yourself and y9our family? Where are you in Mid Michigan? Flint? Lansing? Alma?
blue
Midland.
Hows the business climate in Midland? Dow can't be suffereing, so homes and remodeling must be selling, right?
blue
Dow has laid off quite a few--forced early retirements, etc. Lots of houses for sale and taking a long time to sell. However, work opportunities are out there (for remodeling). Those who still have jobs seem to have money for fixing things up.
Don, he doesn't need to take a test. He can put an ad in the paper and find fifty guys that are capable that have the license already.
blue
Ya, Elmer's wood filler (comes in colours) for nail-holes; Alex for the joints and where the trim meets the wall.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
Elmer's makes a carpenter's wood filler that is water sol. Can "sand" it with a damp rag or sponge or a sanding block. The stuff in the tub is the smoothest and is yellow but they make some other colors avail in tubes. I take it you are talking about painted trim. I find it works great, can put it on either before priming or after.
http://www.elmers.com/homerepair/homerepair_products.asp?cat=2
I second resconc on the Elmer's suggestion. Comes in a few colors and is easily applied and finished after it dries. The white is very white too. Only for nail holes though. Anything bigger, like a miter, and it will show later.“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Frankly, I always use "plastic wood" on raw wood; leave it high; hit it the next day with a sander or paper. Like the way it smells!
Exterior trim and soffits and ply I always install with screws and do this, then go over it next day with a 5" random-orbit sander. Doin' it Monday to soffits I installed Friday.
Forrest
Yeah, I like "plastic wood" too--and the smell; but the darn stuff dries out so fast even if I close the can up. But it could be worth it to buy a can and use it for a job and if it's too hard for the next job, go out and blow another $4 or whatever for another can. I think the homeowner could absorb that cost!
Make sure you store the can upside down - makes a huge difference!
Forrest
Plastic Wood sells their own proprietary solvent which you can mix in when the stuff starts to dry out. However, acetone works just as well. Personally, I stopped using Plastic Wood (or their competitors, like Famowood) on painted surfaces, since after a few years it would start to blow out of the nail hole just enough to be visible beneath the paint. I'm with Cags on technique: prime, latex spackle (lots of brands), sand lightly. If you are only using one finish coat of paint on top of the primer, then you need to touch prime the spackled holes, otherwise it will show through. For the really high end stuff, I fill the holes with an epoxy putty (like Abatron). This stuff does way better than anything else in moving in concert with the wood, so you will never see any blow outs or cracks -- even years down the line. And it sands very easily.Good luck with the knees; I know what you mean, since mine aren't feeling too good these days either.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
A little bit of mineral spirits softens it up.
When I'm doing trim (I have 10 years on you, and I know what knees feel like) I use the Zinnser patch. It works great and paints great.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
Crawford's putty.... best stuff for nail holes...and bad miters...
http://www.crawfords.com/
Hey Danno:
We have pretty good luck with Compound 45. Sure, you have to work fast but it fills nicely and is sandable - just mix small quantities.
As far as the knees go, sorry to hear about that. Mine kill me too, but, knock on wood, no surgery in sight anytime soon and I'm a long distance runner. But I'll tell you one thing, whenever my knees or shins or wrists start to ache I give myself a good rubbing down in those areas with O24 (http://www.024zone.com/fibro_1oz.html) Man, that stuff is a life-saver! Way better than Absorbine Jr and the like. Completely natural ingredients too. OK, sorry about the commercial, but this a great forum for sharing ideas and I just wanted to pass this along.
Cheers,
Ken
"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
For all you guys with bad knees: quit kneeling!
When I started in the trades, the guys told me "dont kneel or your knees will go bad later on in life". Since I was a good listener, I've never knelt. Never. Well, almost never. There are always some special circumstances that require it, but when I do, my knees always hurt and I only knealt for a very short time in rare occasions.
My knees don't hurt today after about 30 years out in the trades.
There is a book call Pain Free that claims to help people with knee problems by doing core exercises. The excercises are simple and don't take too long. I'd try them if my knees were hurting. He claims it's all about alignment; stacking the critical points in true vertical alignment. The knees are one of the critical points.
Google Egoscue. That's the author.
blue
Re the nail holes on paint grade trim, every painter I have ever used uses Dap painter's putty or even more often another brand of the same stuff - can't think of it right now - orange can that they sell at most paint stores around here - I think it starts wit a 'C'. It takes a bit of a light touch to apply it, and a little drywall dust, baby powder, etc on the hands keeps the stuff from sticking to your fingers and generally makes it easier to apply. Kind of hard to explain, but you push it into the hole with your finger, and then lightly rub off the surface to make it perfectly flush. An experienced hand can make nails disappear - invisibal. It never fully dries, but I have found that it actually dries enough to sand if necessary, although it should not be necessary.
Regarding outside miters being loose, first miters are normally glued. Doesn't help though if the carpenter isn't a bit skilled to start with though. A few pin nails shot through the outside corner edges while the assembling the miter hold the face of the miter flush. As Sphere said, if the surface the casing is being applied to is not perfectly flat, some back bevel on the miter cuts helps a lot. Also, personally I think it is much easier to do good looking trim work using nail guns. During the hand nailing process the piece sometimes moves around as it is being attached...
Regarding the guy you work with, if you find someone more skilled, you will learn more and your own skill and speed will increase. To me, not using caulk on nail holes is on the 101 level.
Edited 12/18/2006 7:12 am ET by Matt
Guy I work with does use a nail gun, but IMO, he's a little quick on the trigger. He's blown out the edges of the trim at least once on about every third piece he puts up. Like I said, he also nails before he has it postioned where it should be.
I guess that if you want to keep working with him, you should get him a christmas preent of a pair of clam clamps.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
I gotta go with what DonK said - You need to lose this guy. You bitch about him more than I bitch about my Wife.(-:Loyalty isn't a bad thing unless you're screwing yourself in the process. And it sounds like you are.
Marriage is a relationship in which one person is always right, and the other is a husband.
Norm Abrams once said he uses glazing compound.
http://www.wolfmother.com
Matt, the stuff in the orange can is Crawford's...must be a regional thing, because I have never seen a painter ever fill nail holes in painted trim with anything other than Dap 33 or Crawford's. DAP is oil based, so it attracts mildew outside. Crawford's is water based... Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
Edited 12/18/2006 9:20 am ET by Snort
I agree with everyone telling you not to work with this fellow. I know two people, in my family, that work like your friend. I eventually had to weasel my way out of jobs with them, it just sucks when you get up in the morning and are dreading your day because you know your gonna see some backa$wards stuff, ugly stuff, things that make your stomach turn. Things that mess with my head. And then listen to their reasons when you try to say something. For my own sanity I had to remove myself from the situation. It wasn't easy to do, nor is it easy to maintain.
How do we dance while our world keeps turning?
How do we sleep while our beds are burning?
it just sucks when you get up in the morning and are dreading your day because you know your gonna see some backa$wards stuff, ugly stuff, things that make your stomach turn. Things that mess with my head. And then listen to their reasons when you try to say something.
Exactly. I got home tonight and was complaining to my wife in about those terms.
I went out and bought some water-based wood dough and got there before Marc, so I was using it when he came in. I told him I thought I'd try this stuff. He immediately took his wood putty and started filling in holes too--looked like he was even smearing it over what I had done, so I gave up and started using his stuff again.
He was chiseling a mortise in the edge of a door for a latch and not only wasn't facing the bevel of the chisel in toward the waste side of the cut, he was pounding with a hammer towards the face of the door. I marveled that he hadn't slipped and blown through the face part of the door. The next one he did, he did exactly that and then got all angry that the $#@& thing did that! Turns out one of the earlier ones was also cracked. Proceeded to strip every other screw when mounting the hinges, until his battery ran out of juice and he had no spares charged up. By that time it was five and I went home.
I had moved the furniture in the living room away from the walls so he could put in the base molding. Then I went around and puttied the holes. Before I could touch up the putty with paint though, he moved the furniture back, so I just touched up what I could get too.
Yeah, I guess for my sanity too, I will have to work more often for myself and get licensed and slowly get him used to not having me there. He seems to like to work alone and can do stuff on his own that I would have trouble with--like hanging doors. However, I was painting trim inside and I heard him grumbling in the garage and the saw screaming, so I dropped what I was doing and helped him run two bi-fold doors through the table saw. He wasn't having much luck doing it on his own, not to meantion it being dangerous and ruinous to the doors!
He seems to like to work alone and can do stuff on his own that I would have trouble with--like hanging doors.
But are you ever going to learn to do them right hanging around with him?
You cant learn from a guy that dont know shid! Ya gotta go work for someone that can teach you something.
I know that you need to work but keep an eye out for work elsewhere and when you find it jump ship as fast as you can!
Doug
and when you find it jump ship as fast as you can!
Yes and do it in a way that he'll take you back if you have dead time. That way, you'll be so scared of having to work with him again, you'll never have dead time LOL!
blue
The funny thing is that his brother-in-law runs a landscaping business and knew I used to work at a nursery (landscape designer/installer), so Mike asked me if I had any spare time if I would help him out because he was overloaded with work. I okayed it with Marc and then ended up working onlytwo days on two separate jobs with Mike the whole summer! He said the customers who he had lined up all changed their minds.
Another funny thing (though, not at the time) was that Mike told me to load up his truck the first day and after I had we jump in--truck absolutely will not start. He just had a new fuel pump installed and he found out later it just needed time to pump the lines back full of fuel. Anyway, we made a great team--he had a bum wrist and had done something to his leg so he was limping, and my knees and shoulders were hurting from arthritis--make a great comedy skit with Tim Conway and Harvey Copreman playing us! We still got the jobs done. In fact, several times Mike told me he wasn't a slave driver and to take it easy and rest when I needed to. That day we wheelbarrowed about a cubic yard of dirt from the driveway into the yard and spread it and seeded it. Since his wrist was hurting, I ran the wheelbarrow most of the time.
Proceeded to strip every other screw when mounting the hinges, until his battery ran out of juice
That's funny on so many counts!
blue
Do what ditch says !