Hello Experts!
I’m nearing the phase on my remodel where its time to start selecting the trim. My budget is getting smaller as things tend to happen in a remodel. So I have some questions about wood trim. I’m doing everything in the Arts and Crafts style, so it’ll be mainly if not all butt joints.
I’d like to stay with a wood product, i.e. not MDF, but I have some questions:
1) How good primed fingerjoint pine to use these days? Is it “bumpy” or can I count on it being nice and smooth like solid wood for paint?
2) For a couple of my rooms, I’m looking at cherry veneered FJ Pine. What are the expert opinions on this type of product?
3) Should I bite the bullet and try and step up to poplar for the moulding (paint grade)? I may have to use poplar for the crown anyway, since I may have it custom made.
Replies
I'm familiar with the Windsor One FJ products, and they are as good as solid pine
I've never seen a joint telegraph thru with it, and the primer on it is better than most painters do.
Unless you want something that's not available, for paint grade I'd go with FJ.
I hear that Windsor One is on the higher end of everything... quality and price. My current supplier can't get that brand, I'd likely have to go with an expensive retailer to get Windsor One. Any experience with ultralite MDF? I'm now curious about Ultralite MDF because it seems like it'll do well for my mostly paint grade trim. With the FJ products, I'm afraid I might have too much waste culling things out.
The only problem I've had with the ultralite MDF, is that it has a tendency for parts to kind of flake off when hit. Especially with mouldings with a lot of detail in the profile. There's no grain holding things together, so it seems to have less strength to resist damage. If you're basically using a flat profile trim, it should work.
I use a lot of UL MDF crown. Its up out of the way, so it won't get hit and damaged.
Have you looked at the FJ mouldings your supplier has? If they seem like a good product, with a good primer coat, they should be OK. Maybe ask a couple of local contractors and get their opinions.
FJ mouldings have come a long way. I still get customers who insist on "real" wood. And if they're willing to pay the difference, I'll supply it. But, IMO, FJ trim is every bit as good as solid for a painted finish.
I used ultralite once on a crown and wasn't too impressed with it. Like you said, it seemed to damage easily and just seemed a little too fragile in my opinion.
If I recall correctly, we gave up trying to cope it because the edges were just so soft that they'd crush under medium pressure.
Edited 7/12/2007 12:31 am ET by Ragnar17
I use FJ molding all the time. I cull the pieces carefully, though, as I have had some with a slight bump or two at one of the joints. If you order from a yard, either plan your cuts, or at the end of the job see if they will take them back. But the stuff is perfectly fine for paint grade work.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Mr. Nukem,Would you choose primed FJ over Ultralite MDF?
Sorry, maybe mdf might be ok, but I do not use it for anything. I cased an opening using mdf a number of years ago and the stuff had a tendency to split. The miters opened, as well. I was leery of using yellow glue for fear of swelling. So now I just say no. Maybe it was my method, who knows, but now I stick with wood.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I cased an opening using mdf a number of years ago and the stuff had a tendency to split.
You're right --- MDF is NOT good for edge nailing. Like you've seen, it has a tendency to delaminate under those conditions.
But the OP is going to be using butt joints, so it may be good for his application.
Edited 7/12/2007 12:28 am ET by Ragnar17
If budget is becoming an issue (and it usually does - lol), try using pre-primed MDF for any moldings/trim that don't get a lot of contact. Crown is a great place for this. Most window casing and stools can be MDF too.
High contact trim (baseboards, door casings, etc) will probably hold up better in a pre-primed wood. I've seldom had a problem with pre-primed pine and if a joint feels a bit rough, a few swipes with sandpaper or a sanding sponge usually fixes it.
All of my trim is basically flat stock (gotta love Arts and Crafts styling!) I'm actually thinking of using 1 x 6 poplar for the baseboard for durability. Is pine a better choice?
I've been trimming houses for ten years now. I've seen good finger joint and not so good finger joints. best bet is to hand pick them or just send back sub standard pieces. Windsor one is a good product. I've used the 1 x 4 for interior door casings and 1 x 6 for base. holds up well. I've used a couple other brands and had to pre sand the FJ before I installed and re primed (defeats the purpose). there are a lot of pines out there for solid wood. I've been seeing some really dense pine come through lately, very hard and nice to work with.
finger joint base is ok intil they start having joints that run the length of the base as well as short pieces. they have a tendency to split. you will usually only see this on 7" or taller one piece base. I think some trips to local yards are the key to you finding a good product. if the FJ is good in the rack, it will stay good unless you leave it out in the rain or on a concrete floor. good luck."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
The poplar would definitely be more durable.........and more expensive.
All baseboards take a beating so I usually go with pine. My living room, however, has MDF base. We seldom use the room and the kids are grown up and gone. It still looks as good as the day I installed it five years ago.
When my kids were still here, I thought seriously about using steel cladding on their bedroom walls. - lol
We use a lot of paper-wrapped, then primed, moldings in both MDF and mahogany, and, with FJ white-wood. The paper wrapping is a big step up IMHO.
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Jointerman,
I do lots of period finish work on old Craftsman houses; in my neck of the woods that means stain grade CMG fir.
But if my clients want to paint, I strongly recommend MDF. It's an extremely consistent product and since it's already primed, it saves some time. It also paints very well.
In my experience, the people who knock it have never really field tested it. I've pounded MDF with hammers and mallets, and in my opinion it's actually more resilent than softwoods. The only area I would NOT use MDF is anywhere it might see some moisture, like a baseboard near a bath tub, or even on a window stool.
The only other negative thing I can say about MDF is that it is very dusty to work with.
With all that said, I think you'll get good results with a FJ product as well. I don't have much experience with FJ products; for whatever reason, I don't see much of it at the yards I frequent.
As far as the cherry veneered FJ pine, I can only guess. I'm assuming that you'll want to apply some sort of clear coat (otherwise, why use cherry?). What will the end cuts look like? You might see some goofy end blocks from the softwood core. Keep in mind that the softwood core can have some pretty rough stuff in it. For that reason, the veneered product might be better off for mitered trim, not a traditional Craftsman design where the end cuts will be exposed.
Edited 7/12/2007 12:33 am ET by Ragnar17
Ragnar,Thanks for your insights on the trim. The point about the ends of the veneer moulding is something I hadn't thought about! I'll be sure to use solid for that. I'll likely only be doing a few areas with solid wood (entry way and my office). I splurged on nice 3 panel solid wood shaker style doors and because of money, I've got to compromise with some paint grade casing plus I think the contrast will look nice.As for FJ, it seems like I've got to pick the pieces that I want to use carefully, whereas MDF will be clean from the start. I'll also heed your advice on not using it for window stools or in showers.
Ragnar,I've another question for you. Since you do a lot of craftsman style trim, is using a plinth considered authentic? Is it ever done? I think I like the styling, but I'm not sure if its too far out of the craftsman styling.Thanks.-Jointerman
Jointerman,
Statistically speaking, the Craftsman houses I've seen typically do NOT have plinths. The most common approach I've seen is to use a 3/4" x 4-1/2" plain side casing with a 1/2" x 7-1/4" base and 1/2" x 3/4" shoe running into it. (The baseboard often has a medium round-over at the top.)
But I have, in fact, seen plinths on plenty of Craftsman houses, and they are not uncommon. So you'd definitely be keeping within the historical styling and should have no worries about doing so.
The only thing to keep in mind is that the Craftsman plinths are NOT fancy like those from the Victorian-era. I just searched through my photos and discovered that I have apparently never bothered to take a picture of an original Craftsman plinth because they are so plain. They are typically 7/8"- or 1"-thick stock with either a small-radiused edge or an edge that has been slightly eased with a sand block. I think I've also seen some original plinths with a slight chamfer at the top edges.
Size the height of the plinth so that you have ample room to butt in the baseboard (and the base cap, if you're using one). Just mock one up and adjust the size until you like what you see.
In my own house, I cut medium-sized chamfers on the top edges to visually transition to the side casing (see pic).
Install the plinth so that it is centered under the casing. Typically, the casing will have a 1/4" reveal; the reveal on the plinth will be less -- maybe a 1/16" or an 1/8", depending on the overall width.
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I like that look.
There's any number of older homes around here that have a similar style of trim. Plinth block, flat casing, flat head maybe with a small crown at top. Sometimes there's a strip at the bottom of the head casing to give another shadow line.
Very clean, very simple, very attractive.
Here is a little bit of a post shanghai here. Has anyone here used the radiata pine for interior work that is fingerjointed and has the really strange brittle primer? One of the local lumberyards was touting it as suitable for exterior use for a short period. Bet they had some angry customers.
This product I am talking about is manufactured overseas. I think it is milled, primed, and then somehow milled again. The primer coat will flake after 5-10 minutes or so of exposure to water. I helped a buddy trim a house with it, and the primer coat would frequently chip where I nailed it. What makes me think it was milled after priming is sometimes the prime coat would be a solid 1/16th of an inch or more thick, but not on all faces. Never want to use that again.
Dustin
Sounds like a bad batch or a bad manufacturer. I use Radiata for exterior trim quite a bit- the primer doesn't seem especially brittle, though it is fairly thick. I use it on interior trim sometimes, because it seems more sturdy than the interior grade fj- I almost never see a joint showing with the radiata.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
...with a small crown at top. Sometimes there's a strip at the bottom of the head casing to give another shadow line.
This is what you're talking about, right? I like it a lot, too; very elegant without being overdone.
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Just like that, although I haven't seen the bead detail along the casing. Around here, there's quite a few homes trimmed with chestnut, done like that. A friend of mine spent quite a bit of time and $ having his woodwork stripped, but it looked great when finished.
fillet- that's the word I couldn't remember- it's annoying getting old <G>
Just like that, although I haven't seen the bead detail along the casing.
The "bead detail" is actually just part of the window stop. It's a 1/2" x 1-3/8" ogee stop, but for some reason it does appear in the photo as if it were a bead.
Here's a picture of a more elaborate casing design that I photographed in a mansion. I especially like the way the side casings look like pilasters.
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