Had a blowup on the site last week. One of my guys got into it with the painter because our nail gun had left scuff marks on the ceiling when we installed a small crown detail,[ it was an after thought by the GC]. I had told this painter not install any finish paint until we were done, but he went right ahead.
Used to be that carpenters did the trim and only after they were done did the painters come in and prime and paint. Then it got so that the painter wanted to prime everything before it went up,not a bad idea if they left it at that. Nowadays I,m often negotiating with the painter for work space because he wants to apply finish while the trim is still in progress.God forbid they should ever have to actualy cut in with a brush! Last week I saw one of the painters filling nailholes in apiece of base before it had actualy been nailed off!
Anyone else rin into this? Waddya do short of chuckin him out the door?
Replies
Haven't run into that situation, but I have had HOs start painting before I was done.
One even painted the drywall after only 1 coat of spackle- I let him know that lumpy walls were not a finished job, and please ask before doing something else.
Back to your situation- what's the GC doing about this? Is this job on such a tight schedule that its necessary to have the painters in before you're finished?
I've noticed that some guys are so intent on their own work that they just do whatever they have to without thinking about the other guys. If it happens just once, I'd say its a matter ( or lack ) of comunication. If its a repeat problem, well, it needs to be addressed. Maybe backcharging the GC for lack of proper work space would get the point across.
No the schedule is fine, the painter just needed a place to go I guess. When the GC got involved he took care of it ok. painter has not been back for a few days.
My ultimate point however, was that painters these days seem to be getting involved too early in the project.
I got your point in the first post. I'm thinking that work is slowing down and he's getting antsy to make some money.
When I did residential It depended on how much experiance the builder had whether or not trades stepped on other trades. The older better ones never allowed it, the newer inexperianced ones had a cluster all the time. Then you had the home owner builders. You didn't know what was gonna walk through the door next.
"A problem cannot be solved by the same thinking that created it." Albert Einstein
painters these days seem to be getting involved too early in the project
Yes! The project I'm on now is like that--painters keep filling nail holes on trim that's just tacked in place, and things like you talked about. I'm just a trim sub on a pretty good-sized house, and the owner and GC are anxious to get out of there so I can understand finishing a level or a few rooms and giving it over to the painters. But if I am still putting wood on the walls, that is my space, and I don't want a guy filling nail holes and setting up a paint tray that I have to be careful not to trip over! Man, this has been eating at me for a few days now and I didn't even realize it.
Mike
I looked at a job today that the HO says is ready for trim. Every stinkin wall and cieling is finish coated. I just know he's goona have a fit if we get one little mark on it.Think I'll take a pass on that one.
We were working on a job, taking out old windows and putting in new ones, putting up new kitchen cupboards and so on, and the HO kept painting everything in sight. Paint a wall and then we'd rip a window out, pretty much screwing up her paint job, not to mention the plaster as well. But she seemed to want to do it, and we sure kept her busy!
I had a guy today ( retired, of course ) that was cleaning up and vacuuming as I'm ripping out windows.
I'd rather work for people that actually have jobs- they go to work and leave me alone during the day.
When I was "Acting Assistant Executive Director" (how's that for a title--sounds sort of impressive, but it was all title and no money), and acting manager of a senior highrise, one sweet lady would come down to my office and say, "Can't you find something to keep Bill busy--now that he's retired, he's driving me nuts!"
Yeah, I love painting and having the customer point out skips that I would see and take care of anyway (or where it's just that the paint has started to dry and lost its sheen). Or when I was building a fence and I'm trying to wrestle the panel into position and nothing is going right and I'd like to scream and throw the darn thing across the yard, but the customer is standing there.
My first "real' job, at eighteen, was as a painter. Very high volume, cookie cutter work. The main gig was an ever- growing line of condos; picture bulldozers prepping foundations on one end, follwed by carpenters framing the next building, the next one getting plumbing and electrical, and so on. the last, or actually first in line had people living in them already. We were on the second building, the trim carps having just moved out. It was an incredibly efficient production line, with absolutely no interaction between trades -except at the food truck. Once a day the horn would sound and we'd gather like different animals sharing an uneasy truce at the watering hole - it became obvious that every group had a natural enemy, and it was usually the crew working just ahead. I actually saw a fistfight start when the sheetrockers were accused of leaving something unsavory in a bathtub (I guess the toilets weren't yet in).
Working in segregation like we did clearly has its advantages. If there is a downside, it comes from the "tunnel vision" that subs can develop for their own job, and the lack of consideration that often comes with it. A GC can avoid this by developing relationships with the subs who not only know what they're doing, but what others are doing as well. As for painters, The ones I use would never get in your way - they won't set foot on the site while the saws are still spinning. '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Don't run into it because I don't play that. And I'm not tryin to be snitty or holier than thou, I just wont do it. I tell GC's ahead of time how much time I need and make sure they understand that when I say I work alone, I mean it. I lock the house with my own locks, anyone wants to show up, I need to know. I'm not adverse to coordination - people do show up regularly, but at least I know who, for what, and they get their measurements and leave. I think you just need to set the stage for what you're willing to deal with. If you don't raise a fuss when you get walked on, people think you're a rug. Besides, all that distraction - not good for a trimmer. You need time to go be that anal retentive soul that led you to this work anyway. Distractions make mistakes, and then it just takes longer.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I had a client call me after the painter put a coat of matte finish red paint on a ceiling. He wanted crown molding put in. After I put it in, not even the painter would risk using any caulk (of course the ceiling went all over the place) against this paint.
I love doing things backwards.
PAINTERS:( . GET OUT OF THE WAY,WELL LET U KNOW WHEN WERE READY.AND DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT PLUGGING INTO MY Y.
Hi Jay-
You train your clients-if not, they dictate to you.
My old partner from the early days "Rob" has always had an iron clad arrangement.
He installs rails, and nothing else. When he shows up in a house that is a cluster, he writes a note to the site super, a simple explanation that the site is not ready for his installation. They will be billed 4 hours for his wasted time coming out-then he leaves.
It typically only happens once. He has a nice clean working area without any distractions or interruptions. He is a sub, he gets paid piece work and he makes about $500/day. (a normal day is 5 hours)
I have always respected Rob for his intolerance this way. Sure helped out on our sites tha we worked together on.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Lawrence,
I was strictly a Stair Rail Installer for a while. Myself, the guy who taught me and the guy I taught always had a set of rules.
We spelled out what we required and on the day we showed up, if things were all jacked up the builder got a bill for $200 (half a day) and got put back on the schedule whenever we could fit him in.
Often times, it wasn't always the builders fault. For example Ballusters. If the painter indicated that he would prefer to paint them first and then touch them up after the install, we made sure he had them a week or so in advance. Most of the time what really happened is that the material would be delivered the day before the job. We would arrive to see the painter taking them out of boxes and painting them the morning of the day we were going to use them. That since I would then need to come back to finish the job, The builder got a bill for the full day even if it only took me three hours. I once had a painter come to me and ask why he had to pay $400. I explained to him that I had told him long ago I would make sure he had the stuff to paint at least a week before I needed to install it if he asked. He never did and he cost me a day. Never happened again.
Then there was the Floor company saleswoman. The builder in question would block out the appropriate number of days for us to come do our job. Noone else was allowed in the house. when we were finished the floor company would come in and sand and finish. The firsttime I was pleasant about her little trick. On the second day of the job she had her guys sneak in early and start to sand the floors. Obviously you cant walk or work on a half sanded floor. I politely explained to her that if she contacted me in the future we could work it out so that we would put in the posts and rails and then give her a day to sand that area so that her guys wouldn't have to sand and scrape between ballusters( Never mind that I always sand 60-80-120-150-200 anywhere they won't be able to sand like around posts or under ballusters before I put them in). On the next job we called her and asked and she said not to bother so we assumed she would wait until we were done. On day two there where her guys sanding away. SHe was not amussed by the $800 bill for the two of us to sit on my tailgate and watch her get yelled at by the builder and her boss but it never happened again.
The first time I would always offer to work with the other person. But the second time, more so if they were trying to "Get over" instead of cooperating, big bill works every time.
Hold on a minute Jay.
Pizzn of a good painter is like throwin shid at the cook.
Hers the charge ;
A trimmer was scuffin up a finished drywall ceiling . The ceiling was finished .
If the trimmer is gonna take full deal on the ceiling and fix it then geter done . If yer gonna ask the painter to fix it then ya better off to give the trimmer the cussin, cause the painter can cause a trimmer heart aches. Ya cant win when yer throwin shid on him. Hes the one that covers a trimmer azz. And thats the way its always been . You can plead yer case here to carps and get a shoulder to cry on but if they would fess up and tell the truth , they respect their painter too. If ya dont have a relationship with your painter then its gonna be a long hard road to hoe.
If ya dont have a good painter then youll be beat by a good trimmer that does have A GOOD PAINTER .Same goes for builders. You cant beat the system. Be part of the system or be part of the problem. Most successful men or women have good people around them.
Tim
Well said
The painter is the last guy on the food chain. How long would it take to go around and cover up the marks anyway? 20 minutes? On larger projects I make it clear to the painter he will need to make time for touch up.
In your case he needs to take it up with the GC.
The current job I am on has the painter on top of us. What I can't understand is why they always need to paint the room we are in when the house is 5500 sq ft and 90 % finished. We have to try to stay professional and explain this every so often to keep the peace and to give us room to breathe. The builder has backed them off, but they seem to cosistantly make poor choices on where to work. It has been worse, I coped and tacked a piece of base up where a cabinet was to go, left the nail out 1/2" , or so, and the joint open the same-they caulked and painted this to the wall!
I'll contact Shglaw.he's the king of hating painters!!!
Be well
a...
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
Jay, I run into this ALL the time. It's just the way the GC stacks the subs in order to move faster. Really ,really used to p-ss me off until I had a blow up with him. He's not going to change the way he builds houses and he signs my checks was the end result.
Actually I'm lucky though, the painters never say a word nor do they complain when I get in a huff. Doesn't seem to bother them as much as me.
What bothers me more than anything is where I leave open corners of base (like where you're going to finish to later when the kitchen is installed). Half the time the paint and caulk the exposed end. Now I turn a piece upside down and backwards in order for them to realize it's not yet finished.
I feel your pain.
What bothers me more than anything is where I leave open corners of base (like where you're going to finish to later when the kitchen is installed). Half the time the paint and caulk the exposed end. Now I turn a piece upside down and backwards in order for them to realize it's not yet finished.
I feel your pain.
Aint as bad as plumbers with sawsalls and framers trimming is it ? <G>
Thats funny . What I really appreciate about painters is your tools get marked for free . Leave a hammer sitting somewhere and it will have painted hand prints on it . Torpedo heater will have its own idenification on it if you leave it for them to finish .