Last January I built a new entry door for my house. It looks good, fits good, and works good. It is sheltered in a porch. The problem is, as we near Spring (MI) and the days get warmer/damper, during the day it develops a roughly 1/8th inch warp (convex toward the outside), which breaks the weatherstripping seal.
I plan to build a storm door for it also, and I expect that will help; but in the meantime I’m thinking it would be a good plan to seal the surface better to cut down on moisture absorption. The finish I used on it is Minwax Polyshades; what’s compatible with it that would give a good seal?
Any other suggestions?
Replies
Aluminum paint works pretty well. But probably more acceptable would be some different weather stripping. I use silicone tubes from Resource Conservation Technology in Baltimore. Works like a dream.
http://www.conservationtechnology.com/
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Isn't Polyshades used for staining and finishing all at once? And isn't it an interior finish?
No wonder it's warping. 2nd, strip that crap off and put on a decent spar finish. On all 6 sides.
Storm doors don't go well with wood.
Tom, I replyed to you more because of the question f type of door...
Yes, I had wondered that at the time I bought it, but couldn't find anything that said it was Interior, and since it was Polyurethane I made the erroneous assumption... Now I see, in fine print in the instructions, "Directions for interior".
So the question now is, what's good? (and yes, it's wood -- oak)
Are the stiles wood staved (with pine) or are they solid oak? In other words, did you laminate an oak veneer on a pine core for the stiles? Or are the stiles solid oak? If they are solid oak, are the one piece? Or glued up pieces to make the stiles?Where I'm going with this is most hardwoods, except Mahogany, should have wood staved pine cores. If they don't they are prone to warping. This is the premium method of manufacturing a door according to the Architectural Woodworking Institute. Also, both sides of the door should have the exact same finish. In other words, don't paint one side and stain the other.View Image
I don't know what can take the warp out, but, I would take that #### of both sides of that door and finish it with a oil base finish. All six sides, all multiple coats. Poly shades was made for interior work and for lazy people that don't know better.
I built our entry doors, expensive pine, true divided lites, morticed, tenoned, pinned all joints.
Finished with:
1. Thinned coat of Real Spar varnish.
2. Primed the exterior surfaces with SW oil based primer, several coats.
3. Exterior SW Duration, sprayed on, several coats.
4. Interior spar varnish, about 6 coats, sprayed.
Before building the doors I let the wood acclimate for about 4 months.
Then, brought they up to altitude and aclimmated for about 6 months.
They are in direct sun all year long and are still as good as the day I built them.
I agree with others. Get that crap off them, and pay careful attention to the edges. Also, are you sure no liquid water is entering from the bottoms?
Stef
I can see I made a lot of mistakes. I was concerned about warpage when I built the door, but at that time I couldn't see any way to guarantee it wouldn't be an issue. The rails and styles are solid oak. The panel, which comprises roughly 70% of the door, is a sandwich of 1/4th inch oak ply with a 1/2" styrofoam interior, and it has a small stained glass window at the top.30 years ago I used a lot of spar varnish, and outside it never held up more than a year or two max, always peeled. They've probably improved it since then, but I haven't gone back to it. I'd be willing to, but don't want to get into the same trouble I did back then, it was a real mess. That's why I asked about specific recommendations.The door is on the north side of the house, recessed under a deep porch, and gets no sun or weather other than temp & humidity. On a normal day, or in the evening, the warp is gone (right this minute, with the thaw, we're at 93% humidity). There is no contact with water other than humidity.I'm not sure what the concern is re: storm door + wood door, but I would guess it could be heat buildup between the two? If that's the problem, I don't think it's an issue in this application. The house (an old farmhouse) has no A/C, and the door will be open in the summer, so it will need a storm/screen.So - to salvage the project as much as possible, strip it and coat it with what, specifically? Who has the best spar? Is spar the best choice?
Hey 2d-Honestly, the stiles being solid oak are the problem. I know that's not something that can be remedied now, but it's gonna give you a fit. From the outside most people would think solid oak is a good thing, but the stiles should have a laminated staved core....or the panel will turn into a potato chip. Staved core doors are more expensive because of the labor involved.I have solid mahogany doors and use a marine product called Deks Olya. It is more like an oil. I take the doors off the hinges and lay them on saw horses and coat one side until it comes through the other side. I never let it dry, keep laying it on. Then I flip it over and do the other side. I do it every few years, or touch up spots while the doors are hanging. No peeling like urethane or varnish. Both my front and back doors have been up for almost 20 years, and they look great.View Image
I expect that you are 100% correct: wood warps. It seems to think it's it's job. Honestly, I think I'm getting off lucky to only have 1/8" to deal with.
Here ya go. This is a solvent-based moisture cure urethane clearcoat, with excellent UV resistance.
View ImageForget using anything else. Take it from the door doctor.
Strip the door bare of existing finish. Coat all six surfaces. This stuff will cure quickly and allow three coats in 48 hours time.
Hey, thanks a million -- exactly the information I was looking for!
Any kind of spar varnish, even the marine grade stuff (very expensive) will not last very long -- how long depends mainly on how much sun it is exposed to. The problem is, once it starts to peel away, you pretty much have to completely strip the old finish off before you recoat. There is another option that I can vouch for -- a homemade oil/varnish mix that you can wipe on. Every couple of years (whenever it starts to show some wear), just rub it down and reapply the mix. There are any number of products you can use for the mix, but I have found the following to be about as good as anything (even much more expensive products). Both are available from Home Depot, both are for exterior surfaces (i.e. have UV inhibitors), and both are made by Minwax. I mix their Helmsman Spar Varnish and Clear Shield (an oil)about 1/3 Spar to 2/3 oil, and then add some plain paint thinner -- enough so you can wipe it easily. Apply it like any oil, let it set up for 10-15 minutes and then lightly wipe away the excess. Rub it down when dry and repeat the process 3-4 times.On a protected porch --- and especially if you add the storm door --- this finish should last about five years before you have to rub it down and apply another coat.I first learned about this technique in a magazine piece maybe 20 years ago by Sam Maloof, the legendary furniture maker. And I have been using it in various configurations since that time.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikki, would this process work if you wanted to stain the wood with a minwax stain first?
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
<<"nikki, would this process work if you wanted to stain the wood with a minwax stain first?">>Absolutely, this concoction is just like any other finish; in fact most "wipe-on" proprietary finishes are just a similar mixture of oil and varnish. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Gotcha. Thanks. :)
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
you have a million dollar door covered w/ some *iss poor fluid
congrats on door and good luck w/ restoration!
I used a finish much like the one you described a number of years back to finish a carriage. It was (from memory) Behlen's Water White Restoration spar varnish and Tung Oil; seems like there was also some mineral spirits incorporated also. I wish I could remember the recipe exactly; sorry.
It was a nice finish, but I was never comfortable with the level of protection it offered; perhaps all in my head. It seemed to thin with time, even when kept indoors, and needed to be re-upped periodically. Still, it was dust-free, which was nice, so re-upping was not a major problem, as long as there wasn't too much "stuff" to work around (and believe me, on a carriage there's a lot of "stuff").
I think I mentioned earlier that Sam Maloof was the source for this idea (for me). He used pure tung oil (not tung oil "finish"), mineral spirits, and either alkyd varnish or spar varnish (depending if the piece was interior or exterior) -- and the three parts were mixed in equal thirds. Since it is a wipe-on product the build per coat is less than brushing; so it's not a bad idea to do 4-5 or even 6 coats, which is generally not a problem, since it goes on so fast.However, it is a difficult finish to use when you have a lot of obstructions or corners you have to go around -- like on your carriage. Unless you are super meticulous, the finish tends to stack up in the corners.I don't know anything about products that are suitable for exterior use that you can spray; but something down that line might be a better alternative for a complicated piece like a carriage. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I recently ordered a gallon of Target Coatings water based spar varnish. Supposed to be interior/exterior. Darn Fedex driver dropper the fragily labeled box and caused the top to pop off. Waiting for the replacement.
I'm thinking I may be trying that on my next "somewhat protected" exterior wood door needing finishing.
There are some new products that are better than spar varnish for wood that has a significant exposure, particularly to UV light. When I get home I'll see if I can find the names of specific ones.There is an epoxy type finish that is probably the top choice. Another possibility is CAB acrylic with a lacquer top coat. Those I have at home so I can give you more details.With this type of finish, it is best to add color to the finish. I've been using TransTint.Regardless of what type of clear topcoat, if you stain the wood the UV light will eventually break down the color. Which is why it seems best to tint the topcoat.
Remove the door and store in a stable environment. letting air pass all around the door. Block the bottom of the door so it will not sit on concrete. Strip off the existing finish and neutralize the surfaces.
Paint the bottom edge of the door and the top edge of the door with a marine epoxy, liberally applied. This will seal the end grain for life.
Use a Sikkens Cetol finish on one side or both. If painting one side, then do not let time elapse between finish of one side and the other. Not so much time, but you need to have the door in a stable humidity/temperature environment.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with solid wood stiles for exterior doors. Nothing wrong with stave built, but don't let anyone scare you off of solid wood "...cause it warps." 30 plus years of professional door building, and three warped doors out of thousands.
Your door is behaving the way it is because of light/no finish protection. It is responding to changes in humidity, and is an effective, though unwanted, hygrometer. In door factories with less than good stability in humidity, door stacks are all covered with 1/4" plywood on the top of the stack. Without such protection the top door of every stack will bow up in the middle as humidity increases, and bow up at the ends as it decreases.
Dave S
http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Great Website! Awesome doors!I worked in an architectural millwork company in Baltimore for 25 years. We were also a member of AWI. http://www.awinet.org/ I'm sure a lot a doors have solid stiles and are perfectly fine and straight, but as a member of AWI we always adhered to their quality guidelines. Most architects specified the premium method for hardwood doors which was staved cores on all hardwood doors, except mahogany. It was just something that was always drilled in my head, when I first started working there. We would glue up strips of pine and run them through the moulder, then skin them with whatever hardwood.View Image
2ndI never use polyurethane varnish on exterior doors because it splits and peels. My own rear door is a 3068 Simpson fir full-lite door finished with McCloskey's Man-O-War spar varnish. This product is a true tung oil/phenolic varnish. The door looks great after 7 years in service. I just redid the bit of moulding at the bottom of the glass that gets water on it when it rains a lot. The rest of the door needed nothing.Waterlox makes a line of spar varnishes that I like a lot. True spar varnish is very dark, like grade B maple syrup, due to the phenolic resin content. It smells oldtimey, and has worked very well for me. A minimum of 3 coats on bare wood works best.Bill
Many thanks for all this great information. I'm copying it all, and will put it to good use. Your help is much appreciated.
You gotta change out the frame, too.
FWIW that is a beautiful door. Nice job.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Bill, I agree completely.
The reason the marine industry uses spar varnish is because it IS the best and toughest exterior finish for wood (clear).
I think one of the reasons it holds up so well is that "maple syrupy" color. I think that is an effective UV blocker.
I neglected to point out, that there are a lot of 18th century homes, with doors, that have stood the test of time. They understood, however, that paint, not clear finishes, is the way to go, and that ALL exterior wood work requires periodic recoating. Hence the inch thick coats of paint on old houses.
Stef
Edited 3/12/2006 5:16 pm ET by fatboy2
There was another thread posted on this same topic recently.
I would recommend McCloskey's Marine Grade Spar finish. I have used it on doors close to the ocean and it has held up quite well.
Interesting timing on this thread. I just got the current issue of JLC and it came with a supplement called Coastal Contractor. There is an article on exterior woodwork finishes. It's pretty thorough.
The bottom line is that no clear finish will really endure as well as paint.
I did a door last year with marine spar varnish. I gave the customers all of the necessary disclaimers, but they said that if they weren't happy, they would paint it at a later date. After 1 year, it still looks pretty good. I don't expect it to last 3.
-Don
I mentioned this earlier in this thread. It's called Deks Oljie. I use the part one and my mahogany doors look pretty damn good after 20 years. It doesn't peel or flake off like a varnish or poly. I actually take the doors off the hinges and soak them.http://www.floodaustralia.net/products/deksolje.htmView Image
That looks like good stuff. Where do you get it? They don't have good "where to buy" info on their website.
-Don
Check Marine/boat stores. I bought it from a marine store on RT 40 in Baltimore, and I can't remeber their name. Call around a couple of boat stores to see what's up.Good Luck!View Image