Hi All,
This post can also be found in Knots (http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=22930.1) I’ve been finishing my basement over the last few years and the end is in sight. The two major tasks are to urethane all the trim and put in railings and ballusters on the staircase. From the pictures, you can see that this is a steep staircase.(I used the original stringers installed by the builder, but replaced the treads and risers). The landing and treads are Oak. The floor at the bottom is bamboo. The bamboo flooring gave my wife a “great” idea – bamboo ballusters and railings. I’m not to keen on the idea because bamboo cracks. Someone suggested dowels as ballusters and gluing “pre-split” bamboo to the dowels. I suppose it’s possible… The challenge, I’m more concerned with is that I want to maintain, as much as possible, the openess of the staircase. The stairway used to be closed in with walls on both sides and it really cut into the space. I don’t want to use heavy ballusters and lose the open feeling. I’ve considered 3 small diameter ballusters (5/8″) per stair tread instead of two of the traditional turned (square at the bottom, round at the railing) balluster. Oh, and under the staircase I’ll be installing book cases. Any ideas? Thanks, Mark View Image
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Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Replies
is that a pot burner on the table?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success, is not pleasing others, it is pleasing yourself"
How would you know what one looks like???
But then again in the one pic the treads on the bottom flight look like they are slope back to the riser...
maybe he should make a hemp railing!!!
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ehh hem..I made a lot of pipes..That one looks like Ipe or walnut.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success, is not pleasing others, it is pleasing yourself"
Modern metal rail w/cable horizontal balasters....???
Ditto.
Nice lighting Mark - doesn't have that basement feel.
That's because I put some big holes in the wall to let in the light. The back half of the basement is above grade So I added a french door on one side and a 6' x 10' bow on the back. See below:This pic was taken before flooring and all the other finishing touches... (you can see the stairway on the very right edge of the photo.)Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark,
As long as the openings between the balusters is 4 inches or less, the diameter doesnt matter. I havent ever heard of a strength test for them, but the newels need to test in excess of 200 lbs.
That would make for a ton of small bamboo balusters.
There is bamboo ply if you are willing to deal with the edging... even the treads are some type of ply.
-zen
I'm assuming that the 200lb is applied horizontally at the top of the newell?
If that's the case, it could be a problem for the bottom newell...Not sure how I can beef up the first riser and attach the newell so it can withstand that kind of force???Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark, what if you bought different sizes of natural bamboo...
Some 5" dia for the posts, some 3" for the handrail, then some 1" running parallel to the handrail at 4" spacing. Notch the posts lightly at the base and bolt them to the framing. Fasten the rest with ligatures made of hickory bark, or stout sisal cord.
Just brainstorming, haven't seen it done.
Yes! you are on the right track. That is the code. It actually doesnt take much.
There are many ways to properly attach newels. One thing to 'beef up' is to scab on a profile of the carriage made out of ply or another board inside the first rise, . This profile should go up a 2 or more steps, and basically match the carriage. That gives the carriage some strength. Then attach the newel anywhere that will be covered. Use square drive or other good, long screws
Another different trick is to cut a chunk off the side of the bottom of the newel post, drill and carriage bolt the newel to the stringer, and then glue the chunk back on covering the recessed bolts.
Another is to bolt and then plug.
Check out some stair books, youll get some more ideas. The Building Stairs that Taunton has has a bunch of solutions.
If you want me to explain any a different way... Id be happy to.
-zen
Mark I thought of a few more options.
One is a recessed plate under the newel that attaches to the floor, when the newel is mounted, it doesnt show.
Some newels have an attached post at the bottom, or a post that slides into the bottom that goes through the tread and is mounted to the floor. Another type goes through the floor and is mounted or is threaded and is secured from the lower level.
Finally there are newels that have a bolt or threaded rod that runs the length of them. The rod is attached to hardware in the stair or buried in the newel, and is tightened in a capped opening in the top. This is nice because if the newel gets loose after years of wear, you can take the cap off and tighten it down again.
Hope you can find an option that will suffice for your application.
You can tell a good stair carpenter if the newels dont budge.
Luck,
-zen
Zen,
Thanks for the ideas. I'm looking forward to the challenge. Since the newel.
Here's my idea - building on what you've suggested.
I can Notch the flooring and subflooring and sit the newel on a plate attached to the concrete with power fastners (I have the kind that use a .22 caliber shell). I can also beef up the riser/stringer and fasten the newel from the back of the stringer (I'm putting the newel to the left of the stringer on the left side and right of the stringer on the right side - since the stairs are not the full 4' wide)The newel at the top of the bottom flight of stairs will be attached to the top riser, but fortunately, there is a double 2x8 behind the riser - so plenty of beef there - plus I have the wall to work with if I need it.Where do you think I can get the recessed plate or the kind with the threaded rod. Home Depot? Online? (I found http://www.stairsupplies.com/ but newels are really expensive...)Again, thanks for all the options, I'll be sure to post images when the job is done. Could be a while however...MarkMeasure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Edited 4/5/2005 9:10 am ET by Mark
Mark,
You can go to the LJ Smith site, but they will probably also be expensive... stair parts generally are.
http://www.ljsmith.net/
You could probably also look around for a fixture from another application.
Ok now to complicate things a bit since you have your wheels turning.
Im going to double check my numbers but...
Classically, If I remember every detail correctly, balusters set the center. Just for understanding simplification, lets build on a square baluster.
The Baluster edge should touch the mitre tread return inside face Traditionally the bottom of the baluster was dovetailed in from the side flush to the tread, then the return was added. The center of that baluster would set the center for rail placement. The newel center would match the center of the baluster and the rail. So if you put that all together what ends up happening because the newel is wider, its edge falls outside, or beyond the standard tread width. So even though it is more work, the Newel is notched and shows beyond, or outside the skirt.
Point being that when the newel is attached on the inside of the stringer and in the tread face it isnt correct, although it can be strong. (attaching inside on deck posts works great, but not proper for finish interior stairs.)
If you have a bullnose or other larger starter tread, the newel falls and may be clipped off on the tread.
Another technique is to start the bottom newel up against the second tread, or notched(newel post) to the face of the second riser to create an inviting approach, and so that if the room is open, you can kind of swing off the corner of that first tread.
Confused? lol
Always work your detail out on paper full or half size is best, then you have a lot less margin of error. I find it extremely interesting, I guess Im a stair geek.
-zen
I'm glad your a stair geek....I'll take some measurements and post them here for your review. However I may not be able to post until Thursday. I'm traveling tomorrow (Boston to Des Moines and back in a day - yuchh - but hey it's business)I'll explain again, because I think you misunderstood one partThe treads are not fully four feet wide. More like 3'3" (it's been a while since I put the treads in but I seem to remember a bunch of 9" pieces of oak hanging around after the job was done).To keep the staircase as wide as possible for walking, I've got to push the railing/balusters/newels towards the edge as much as possible. The newel will be the limiting item. If it's a 3.5" newel, I'll set it in about 1/2" from the end of the tread (the bullnose depth). That puts the baluster centers 2.25" in from the end of the treads (half of 3.5 + 1/2"). That leaves a walking space of (3'3" - 2x4") = 31" for the bottom tread (inside dimension between the newels.)A narrow staircase, but it's all I've got.So now, I've got to anchor the newels to the riser and the floor. I think the floor is going to me my major source of support. The good news, the Newel will go through the bamboo and the subfloor - 3/4" + 15mm - that will affect how the bottom of the newel moves. So it seems that if I beef up the bottom riser and lag bolt the newel from the back of the riser I should be able to give it enough strength.Then, the balusters - I'll use 5/8" hardwood dowel, tenon the bottom ends so they are 1/2" with a sholder at about 1/2". Drill 1/2" by 1/2" holes in the treads. Taper the top of the balusters - perhaps an 1/8" over three inches (this I need to think about more) and drill the handrail to match.Glue in the balusters to the stair treads. Then "just" pop the railing on (yes I know this won't be easy but I'll get my kids and wife to help line up the balusters - that's 10 hands - it might be enough :-)
Then tack in the balusters to the railing with a brad (I'll have to buy an brad nailer - I love projects that "force" me get new tools :-)
and attach the railing to the newels.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Ok for the newel placement, I probably wasnt that clear. Lets define the riser side as the front of the stair and the mitered returns as the sides.
The newels classically 'hang' off the side of the stair. The bottom, starting newel will only be fully on the tread if the bottom starting step is an oversized, or curved bullnosed starting step.
If you think of the outer edge of your dowel just touching the added on mitered tread return, then set your rail center and newel centers based on the baluster center. The newel may hang off the step in 2 directions and complicate the cutting, but it will give the stair a great look and ADD to your width. Meaning you may have to cut for the side and the front, and sometimes even more times on newels further up the stair. With all the cuts this is why it is best to set them before the finish skirts so that the skirts cover up any problems.
As for the stair rail, because of the width of the stair, you only need one rail for code, so if it is in the way further up the case you can choose to only use one when the stair closes.
Balusters- I think you will like life more if you make the balusters like you suggested, except the top bit needs to be an even width... say 1 1/2. Fit your newels and rail. Then drill the rail a bit deep underneath. Start the dowel first up into the rail and back it down the 1/2 in into the drilled tread holes. Then tack. Forget the popping the rail on. Ive seen that circus show before.
Digest that. lol If you are confused just get back to me.
-zen
Zen, here are my confusion points..."The newels classically 'hang' off the side of the stair. The bottom, starting newel will only be fully on the tread if the bottom starting step is an oversized, or curved bullnosed starting step."Upstairs, my newel is on the front of the tread. That's where I came up with my calculations. If the newel is on the side of the stair, the top newel will run into the wall.If you think of the outer edge of your dowel just touching the added on mitered tread return, then set your rail center and newel centers based on the baluster center. The newel may hang off the step in 2 directions and complicate the cutting, but it will give the stair a great look and ADD to your width.I can handle the complicated cut if I decide to put the newel on the corner."As for the stair rail, because of the width of the stair, you only need one rail for code,"I'll only have one rail on the upper flight, but the lower flight is open on both sides so I want railings on both sides for the "old people"Balusters- I think you will like life more if you make the balusters like you suggested, except the top bit needs to be an even width... What do you mean by "even width?"" Start the dowel first up into the rail and back it down the 1/2 in into the drilled tread holes. Then tack. Forget the popping the rail on. Ive seen that circus show before."So start at the top balluster and work my way down?Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Sorry, I confused the heck out of you.
Ok as for the newels hanging, I think you understand what I mean, so if you need to work with whats there, go with it. Two other options may be to shift the rail center to follow the wall as the rail runs along, or to reset the upstairs newel. Some go into the ceiling, and a new rail starts, for the rest of the ascent.
Yes, any open areas, you need both sides closed anyway, no openings in the rail wider than 4".
balusters- the taper at the top should stop tapering and become the same dimension so that you can slide the baluster up into the rail, move the baluster plumb into position, then down into the tread. By using this method, you can avoid the 'pop on the rail' struggle and do one baluster at a time. So build your newels and rails first, then worry about your balusters. The holes in the rail will need to be drilled a bit deep to account for sliding them back down into the tread.
So start at the top baluster and work my way down?
No, I just explained the last paragraph poorly, which covers both "even width", and putting in the balusters.
Again, the things that you dont have a grasp on, Ill be happy to re-explain.
-zen
Zen, do you get JLC? Just got mine today--great article by Jed Dixon on building a winder stair.
Mike
PS--Did your graphic designer ever finish your stuff?
Yeah I got mine today too. I pointed out to my dad that that was the guy that I had the Stairbuilding Seminar with.
I was pretty impressed with myself. Makes me want to build a 4 story tangent curved stair.
-zen