On a recent job I was shingling the roof and part of the roof wasn’t framed yet. I ended up picking that part of the job as well.
THe HO was framing the house and couldn’t figure out how to frame the last part of the roof line. It was a cut up valley bastard hip deal. One of those parts of the roof the truss company draws some lines on their diagram and writes Hand Framed.
I have close to 50 man hrs into finishing this part of the roofline, the HO says I don’t care what it costs get it done. I am kind of in the dark how to bill for a job with no easy stuff to make up for the head scratching.
It would be good to hear from the framers on this one. The part I finshed was a regular octagon roof, with another irregular octagon coming off that one at 45 degrees. The irregular one is above the regular one and a valley between the two. The irregular one ties back into the house with another valley. I’ll get a picture today.
Just a little confused at this point. Because this could have been alot easier without the HO screwing parts of the roof up leading up to my work.
EDIT: If you do framing, buy the swing table and Bigfoot circular saw. Every job I use it on it makes me wonder why I didn’t buy it sooner. Well worth the money.
Thoughts determine what you want,
Action determines what you get
Edited 3/17/2007 7:58 am ET by Stilletto
Replies
"the HO says I don't care what it costs get it done" ... Other than Piffin, has anyone had a HO say this truthfully?
With that said, you got the hard part to figure out, don't short yourself.
I've had a homeowner tell our crew, "I don't care what it costs, just give me what I want and finish it." Of course our lazy project manager at the time didn't give the guy what he wanted and let the job drag on longer than it should have and the HO got pissed and we lost out on doing the next phase of his project. It was one of those classic cases of a guy with too much money willing to just give it away in exchange for meeting his simple list of requests but management being unwilling to pull head out of hindquarters and blowing the deal.
I have.
' "the HO says I don't care what it costs get it done" ... Other than Piffin, has anyone had a HO say this truthfully?'
Not only have I had many HOs say this, but I have said the same to my subcontractors. I don't think that this is rare when you have built a level of trust in the relationship.
Ok; I read it as "Cost is no object".
What you all are telling me is the customer is really saying "I know it's going to be expensive but I trust you not to take me for a ride."
Thanks
That is what I take it to mean when I have it spoken to me.
As another poster said , it is about the level of trust developed.
Not only have I had many HOs say this, but I have said the same to my subcontractors. I don't think that this is rare when you have built a level of trust in the relationship.
Exactly, I dont think its all that uncommon either. There are a lot of GC's/subs out there that are trusted and will not screw the HO just because he say's " I dont care what it cost, get it done and bill me"
We're working on a place like that right now.
Doug
If I am purchasing someone's services on a regular basis, what I really want is their best work. This includes not only their handiwork but also their experience and judgement. I am much more likely to get this if I tell them that I am willing to pay for their best effort.
Does this always get me the best deal? Probably not in each case but I am in for the long run. I want the people that I do business with to be financially successful as they will need to be if they want to stay in business. The fact that I can hire good people to do work that I need done is a lot more important than the small amount I can save by quibbling over a tiny portion of the overall costs. I should be able to raise my prices to cover this because of the quality and reliability of our work and that of our subs.
" has anyone had a HO say this truthfully"?
suprisingly often
most recently------3-16-07
It happens a lot------but it always is gratifying----and as a bad businessman---- I know I end up leaving more money on the table than I should.
stephen
>>I have close to 50 man hrs into finishing this part of the roofline, the HO says I don't care what it costs get it done. I am kind of in the dark how to bill for a job with no easy stuff to make up for the head scratching.
Sounds like you are doing the rest of the job there for a fixed price, and have not established an hourly rate for extra work.
Normally I would say you should figure out what you have to charge to make a profit, and then charge it. In this case, since you need to retroactively bill the guy with no prior discussion, just make sure you are in line with the other guys in your market, whatever that means. If you name a number and the guy feels like he is being stung, it could become difficult. My impression of you from your posts here is that you are very skilled and work long hours, so I would expect your rate to be at the high end of the scale.
Worst thing I ever do is work now and name my price later. Always a bad idea, sometimes fatal.
You are right that I was there for a fixed price. We had an agreement on roofing the home. I had asked them to finish framing the roof so we could finish roofing it. The HO said "I would but we don't know how." So I told him I would do it.
I have an hourly rate for framing, fixing mistakes and finishing jobs. I just haven't run into a situation quite like this. Most of the time it's nothing that takes 50 hrs to do. So thats where my confusion comes from.
I thought it over yesterday at work and I am going to bill him my normal framing rate. Which is probably high for my area but the people that hire me know that they are getting what they pay for.
Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
Tell him if the charge is too high you will be glad to disantle it for a nominal fee.[email protected]
WHICH content will be free, of course; WHICH content will require registration; but WHICH content will be available only to members of FineHomebuilding.com.???
Worst thing I ever do is work now and name my price later. Always a bad idea, sometimes fatal.
Reminds me of something an older guy once told me: "As a remodeler you are in a service business, and the only time a service really has value is BEFORE it is performed."
Wish I remembered that more often!
Bowz
Stilletto,
Sounds like either a "change order" or "additional work order" at a T&M rate to me.
My thought is to sit your self down and add up ALL the time you have in that part of the project, This includes the time at home at night when
You were mentally there and piecing it together.
( Hope you kept a daily log of hours)
Add up the hours, decide what is your normal expected hourly rate (including overhead, profit, burden) etc. and do the math.
Double check with some friends in the business to make sure you aren't way high or low on the hourly rate, although if the job was as complex as you make it sound then being high goes with the territory of being one of the few who could have done it.
Then present your bill and be ready to explain it , itemize it ( but not defend it, it is what it is) or hopefully have the HO say great, less than I expected. .. Thanks!!
Love to see the pics !!
THis job is another odd one for me. I have no idea how the HO found me. I don't advertise in any way. No cards, no ads, nothing.
He retired and started working with his dad and brother building homes. THey started his house and couldn't finsih it.
He retired from the NBA, this guy is huge. I am 6'7" and he towers over me. Probably a little over 7' tall. All the doors in his house are 8'.
Here are the pictures.
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View ImageThoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
Looks good. Pretty fair sized project.
I got to hate those monsters after a while, too darn steep and high for an old man!
Glad I am not the one who gets to pack the 8' doors into the place and hang them!
The only place I would fit on a crew of that size would be in the crawl space ;-)
It's a big house, for a big dude.
This house was framed terribly, the sheathing doesn't overlap the corners, roof sheathing not nailed off, walls way out of plumb. Just the kind of job I like to put my stamp on.
Found out today he wants me to do the stairs from the first floor to the second as well. Job security I guess. Probably another set of winders.
Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
Well, given that is the case, they found the right guy for the job. Fix what you can , teach them as you go along and yep job security ... plus think about all the ex NBA players who will hear about you and your workmanship.
Future work is in the pipe line ! "Stilletto: Builder for the Big Boys"