I’ve built some shelves out of Red Oak Ply. I applied Minwax Natural Oil Based Stain and Minwax Gloss Oil Polyurethane. The Polyurethane seems to raise the grain. Have I done something wrong? I’m hoping that enough coats of the poly will result in a smooth finish….or am I wasting my time?
anybody had this happen?
Thank You
Replies
Sand it with a 400 or 600 w/d paper and recoat with urethane. Repeat if needed or sand agian with 600 and buff it out with a coat of paste wax. Some like steel wool (forget what gade) for the final, before the paste wax.
How many coats of poly have you done so far?
No matter what you do with oak, you will almost always have a little feel of the grain. (unless you actually filled the grain right from the start, but that's a pain)
Make sure you have two coats on to protect the stain and then take some 400 grit sandpaper and very lightly sand the whole surface with the grain. Be careful, you don't want to take any of the color off that you applied in the first staining step. This will break off the highest points. It should feel better already, but it will look very scuffed and dry.
Next apply the finish a little on the heavy side and while it's still wet, use 600 grit wet-dry sandpaper and rub the finish with the grain. Then wipe off the extra. This will take off the mid-high spots.
Then thin the finish out about 50:50 poly and mineral spirits. Apply another heavy coat and use 800 grit wet-dry this time, wipe off the extra. This will take off the lowest high points (is that an oxymororn?)
By adding more finish as you suggest, you will just exagerate the high spots. You need to break them off and build up the low spots at the same time to really smooth it out.
joe
Edited 2/27/2008 7:11 pm by JMadson
Two coats of Poly so far. Thank You for the advice on how to proceed. I didn't realize what was going to happen. Our kitchen cabinets are Oak and I can feel the grain on them too.
I'll follow your suggestions. As long as I can eliminate any real roughness I'll be satisfied.
Thank You for responding.
One other thing to consider, oak ply, or any ply for that matter isn't all that smooth anymore. You have to get some really good grades of ply for it to be totally smooth or else buy oak over MDF.
I cant remember the name of the stuff but there is a plywood out there that has the last layer(the one underneath the outer veneer) in mdf, only about 1/8" thick but enough to make it very smooth. You wont find that stuff at the big box stores though, have to get it from a cabinet wood supply house.
Plus the advice to use a grain filler on Oak is dead on.
Doug
Can you dig up the source for that plywood? I like that idea.
As far as grain filler goes...
Some people like the grainy, rustic feel of oak (kind of a country feel). While others just like the color of oak.
I'm somewhere in the middle. That's why I try to make un-filled oak look as best as I can with 4-5 very well manicured coats, like I described above.
D) Combined-core plywood is a happy compromise. Two layers of MDF and a center of wood plies make for a smooth surface and a strong, flat panel.
J, didnt take all that much to find it!
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/understanding-cabinet-plywood.aspx
Googled mdf ply and got this.
There is a brand name but that completly slips my mind right now.
This should get you some info though, I've used it before and liked it a lot but I wasnt the one that order it so dont know where it came from or where to get it.
Doug
I got this ply at a lumber yard...good stuff. I gave it a light sanding before finishing. It seemed rougher to the touch after the first coat of poly....kind of like it raised the grain in spots. But as you say that's the way Oak is. First time I've used it. I've used Maple or Birch for past projects.
Thank You for your reply.
Finishing hardwood plywood is always a #### shoot.
The oak ply you'll find at a lumber yard (as opposed to a hardwood supplier) may be rotary cut as opposed to rift cut or book matched. Rotary cut veneer is cheaper.
What this means is that the veneer is either made up of one thin 'shaving' cut like you would the peel of an apple (rotary), or made from thin cuts cut like a board and then matched together side by side on the face (rift/book matched).
Book matched ply veneers will finish more like a conventional board, while rotary cut veneer will not. Generally speaking, rotary veneers are paint-grade, while rift sawn and book matched veneer is furniture grade.
Your terms are off just a tad.
"Rift" cut/sawn is a grain orientation, not unlike quarter sawn or flatsawn.
"Bookmatched" is the actual resawn blank laid open in a two page spread.
"Flitched" is sequential as the next slice is laid along the previous slice , and can be "booked" but rarely is unless hand veneerd..factories lay em all same side of knife per lamination, they are not matched , just seqential side by side.
Picture a loaf of bread..roll it on a lathe, that is ( you were correct) rotary sliced. Now take the loaf and cut it longways for slabs and let them fall like dominoes....and schmear them out all the same way like cards in a deck..that is Flitch laid. AKA Side slip.
Those outer few slices are flat grain , exhibit the cathederal grain patterns, as you progress through the log.
Now take a board and exime the end grain..if the rings of growth are at 90* to the wide face, that is true quarter sawn lumber or veneer. IF the rings are at 45* , then it is rift..it has little if any bearing on the designation of plywood, unless you specify RIFT, Quarter , Flitch or Rotary.
don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be a prique here, just trying to clarify so some don't get the wrong terms when dealing with suppliers.
If I need to be more clear, I will be glad to expound.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
"terms off a tad"
I Don't think so as my post was not meant to provide anything more than an explanation for why the OPs finishing efforts may not succeed, and not a poor man's forestry degree. But thanks for not being a prique or anything. :-)
IMHO, your post didn't help the novice buying plywood much.
Rift is not a grain orientation, it is a sawing technique. The center cut from a rift-sawn log will display face grain much different from the outer cut, but not as different as a flat-sawn log. In general, rift sawing is provides a cheaper alternative to quartersawn lumber for those seeking a more stable plank and more consistent grain. Oak is commonly flat-, rift- and quarter-sawn due to it's prominent grain. Birch and Maple are not since the grain prominence is not as much of a factor.
Book matched veneers can be more than two page sections, but will always alternate - like a book. If you're not buying book-matched veneered ply, or rotary-cut veneer ply then you are getting unmatched veneers from sequential flitches whether flat-sawn or not. This is normally called plain-sliced by suppliers.
Flitched means little in this context and is used in several subtly different ways in the veneer and lumber industry. Flitches are slices. Flitched logs, beams, veneers all indicate the products of cutting or using slices.
Cathedral grain results from flat-sawn lumber.
Plywood designations as mentioned by others in this thread are generally concerned with plys and cores. Even at hardwood suppliers catering to the cabinet trade, you are more likely to be asked whether you want apple-ply or mdf-core than you are about the veneer used. This is why I buy from suppliers where I can get a choice of actual veneers as well as cores and plys.
Here's an example plywood page from one supplier I use: http://www.owlhardwood.com/plywoods.html
Here's a nice Glossary of Veneer terms: http://www.edensaw.com/veneers.asp
And a few nice cutting drawings from the HPVA: http://www.hpva.org/products/prodinfo/veneer%20cuts.asp
Edited 2/28/2008 12:23 pm ET by WindowsGuy
Right, what I wanted to covey is that the terms can be misconstrued, and if I added to that, I apologize.
The premise of the post is still that the OP had a problem with "grain raise" of which , with anything other than Waterbased finishes, I have yet to have had an issue.
Possibly this OP had used Minwax Poly-Crylic which will raise grain, but in my exp. with Oil, has never been an issue, no matter what the veneer lay up on any substrate.
Flitch , plain, flat, rift, quarter, are pretty much terms that define sawing techniques, sliced veneer is gonna behave differently, that is due to the ignorance of a saw blade "Slice" vs a Veneer blade slice..hence the terminolgy being obtuse.
In fine veneers, the side away from the knife, behaves differntly than the side recently sliced, it has to do with grain compression, and sharpness of the slicing knife, force, and heat.
They lay the freshest face down, due to the poristy of the grain, for glue adhesion benefits..the cells most recently opened, are still more recptive to the adhesive.
I appreciate the links, but in my world, I know the ramifications of each cut of wood, and I may also have my own background to verify that each has merits in it's own rights, and given the proclivity of vernacular being what it is, a simple clarification can become a tome on cellular subleties that each of us are seeing.
No harm no foul..but.( there is that but) Book matched is not the same as flitch, or rift..ever.
Salute.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I hear ya. No worries here.
The links weren't for you... just for the unitiated who might wander beyond a big box or lumberyard and wonder what makes one sheet of HW plywood worth $100 and another only $25.
10-4, I WAS one of them guys, hence my recitation to those who may follow and wallow in confusion.
I had to special order Okume from Japan at 3mm with face at 1 mm from Osaka..twixt the language fence and terminolgy..I was lucky to get Obeche underlayment that HD has for 10 dollars..yet Okume in 5mm was 110.00$ ( thats all I could find) a sheet..
so MM's Vs. .oo1's and face veneer's can really affect the out come of a job.
I din't come here to start a tiff, but your terms were just a bit off, and those can progress when repeated, that's all.
Bon Jovi..I mean..Von Jure.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
"I din't come here to start a tiff, but your terms were just a bit off, and those can progress when repeated, that's all."
Oh brother... took our passive aggressive pills today did we?
You sure as hades did intend to start a tiff by trying to nitpick a post and adding confusion and errors to the mix for good measure. You've added nothing to the discussion started by the OP. Now you continue to erroneously beat the "a bit off" horse well after it's in the ground.
Be sure to post once more and have the last word in the thread as that is obviously what you seem to crave.
You win, I resign from this game of tag. It's been fun.
Mangez merde monsieur? Oui? Bon appetit.
Ok..last word.
SnorkSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
To get smooth finish, you need to fill the grain before finishing. Probably too late now.
Bruce