finishing trim with poly vs lacquer
i’m a big fan of cabinets and trim finished in lacquer, but that said i’m currently having some problems and need to try something different. i’m using s-w pro mar satin lac. and sealer over a fairly dark stain. it is so fragile if you even bump it a little bit you can see it. i’ve never had this trouble before but i usally stain very light or nat. red oak. so i’m considering using poly and don’t have a lot of experence with it. i would prefer to spray as i am very comfortable with spray gun. got any advice on prepping, thinning and application. or maybe you use a different brand of lac that you would recommend. i have fabulon poly that i have been using on the floors,it’s a great product for floors, also have access to minwax poly, probably others out there i just don’t know. thanks larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Replies
This water based stuff won a shootout of sorts a few years ago in Fine Woodworking. I tried it based on that. Prior bad experience with w/b notwithstanding.
It's not quite like lacquer, but amazingly close. Short learning curve combined with toughness. I was impressed.
http://www.compliantspraysystems.com/index.htm
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Edited 2/21/2005 12:46 am ET by Peter J
Try to get Goldhiller to see this, I dont see his name in the drop down.
A little further description might be helpful.
When you say if you bump it, you can see it.....do you mean you see a dent in the finish, a scratch in the finish or a dent in both the finish and the wood? Or......do you mean that a bump is causing removal of the finish and the colorant?
What species of wood is involved? What type of stain/coloring product? Did you leave "excess" colorant lying on the suface in an attempt to get as dark as you needed to go? How dark is "dark" in this instance?
When you say you like and have used lacquer before, do you mean a cat-lacquer or a nitrocellulose based lacquer? (I figure if you meant a water-borne, you would have indicated that)
I presume the sealer is going on under the lacquer? What type of sealer?
Is the lacquer product you're using this time a simple nitro product?
Are there cabs involved in this project or just trim? If cabs, what room of the house is involved? Kitchen or bath?
Sounds like you're at stage X of the project already and need something to shoot over what's on there already now. ???
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 2/21/2005 10:23 am ET by GOLDHILLER
wow,what timing i sat down to read this post they recommend i talk to you and 2 mins later you post! anyway let me see if i can give you more info. the type of wood is red oak, cabinets were red oak 1/4 sawn. sanded to 150 and stained with a oil base stain , i mixed half walnut and half red mahagony, stain was wiped off really well in about 5 mins and usally set for several days before sealing with SW nitro sealer allowed to dry and then 3 coats of satin nitro lac [also SW pro mar]. it just seems that if you so much as look at this finish it will show a lite white scratch, of course i can take a little brush and touch it up and it looks fine,but i figure i don't want to make a hobby out of this. this is a complete house project,as far as where i'm at in the project all the cabinets and about half of door trim are done , leaving base and some stairway railings etc. today i was going to work on the stair risers and don't think what i'm using is going to cut it ,with peoples feet hitting as they go up and down the stairs. so what do you suggest to finish up the rest with [if you think just stick with lac do you have a brand you prefer over sw],and what about recoating some of the previously finished trim? just a quick background info, i do bodywork and painting so this is why i prefer to use a gun. i used to always use automotive type clear, and it is a much superoir product to this nitro lac, but it's a 125. a gal and you only get high gloss!!!thanks larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Whatever you do....don't use an automotive lacquer on wood. It isn't formulated to withstand the movement and will crack and craze.Wish I had more time at the moment, but I don't. Family near-emergency thing going on here with FIL. gotta go, but will hopefully return tonight.I think you're right about the stair parts that get foot impact and wear and tear. I wouldn't personally dream of using a lacquer there unless I was ready to do periodic recoats. Ugh. A poly would be a good product there, but shooting it in place can be a challenge. Clouds of sticky stuff that require much masking (if a current residence) and thoughtfully placed forced ventilation in any case.If you're doing this with HVLP turbine equipment, be careful tht you don't place your turbine inthe jetstream of your forced ventilation or it will pick up the drift and convert that to little clumps of goo that will come out the gun and onto the surface you're spraying.About out of time here, so I'll stop for now by saying that if shooting the stairs or anything else with poly.....I'd make my first coat a dewaxed shellac like Zinnser's SealCoat (maybe even two coats) and then get out the poly.I probably be back later to yak about what to use over the existing lacquer you have. Could be problematic switching to another finish now. Depends.Put out a call to RW too if you can.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I've read the whole thing and my first guess you already answered, and I was wrong. I don't know whats causing the prob, honestly. I use SW lacquers all the time and frankly like them above most everything else I've used.
My gut instinct was you put a CAB over oil stain without the vinyl sealer, but you already said its all nitro, and you wiped the stain. Strike 1.
What I can answer is can you spray poly. Technically, yes, you can do it. Having done that once, I can also say I'll never pull that stunt again. To approximate the end result, spray yourself with contact adhesive and walk around awhile. Now extrapolate that experience to the entire house. It hangs in the air, sticks to everything, and is generally just an unpleasant ordeal. You might do ok with the HVLP, I used a cup gun. Not doing that again.
If you like waterbornes, I'm a dyed in the wool hard core fan of Kem Aqua, and I've elaborated to some extent on that in the past here. Search for Kem Aqua and you'll find a handful of posts.
Sry I cant be more helpful. First order of business is figuring out why you're getting what you are. You got a Sherwin sales rep around that might be able to swing by for a look-see and offer on the site advice? Worth a phone call. My guy is a gold plated miracle on wheels."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
do you use the pro mar lac from s-w? i'm not sure if they have other grades or just pro mar. this is what i started using 3-4 yrs ago and really hadn't had a problem,but everything has been light colored. next item ,i did try spraying a little poly today on the stair risers and skirt boards,oh so sticky! reminds me of car paint 30 yrs ago, synthectic enamel it would stick to anything within 1000 ft. i have a hvlp gun but on the house project i don't have enough air volume so just using a cup gun. i think i talked to you about the kem aqua back when i first started.i talked to 3 of my local s-w stores and they shruged there shoulders, couldn't even find it in there catolog. i did run across a 5 gal up in kans. city and played with it a little but didn't have the nerve to learn on this project. i did use it in the pantry on the cabs and shelving. since my sw guydidn't know nutin., i used the pro mar lac. sealer then put on 3 coats of kem aqua . it looks good,seems to be holding up good [side note-nat. finish no stain] time will tell. i would like to work with it some more but i need to find a dealer with product and support. has this product been out long or has it been out long enough and not enough people using it? thanks for the info larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
What equipment are you using to spray with?The way you describe the scratches, my first thought was that you were using a cup or HVLP and maybe it wasn't being built up enough. Dry spraying... atomization or something to that effect?The others are right about spraying the poly, you can but why. <g>It is sticky. For cabinets I like to use catalyzed lacquer or conversion varnish, sometimes I'll use pre-cat lacquer. I've never liked SW's nitro lacquer, but I do use their other wood finishes.
Barry E-Remodeler
i'm shooting with a binks suction feed gun, laying on pretty wet. i'm not familer with cat. lac. tell me about what brand your using and i'll try to find some. thanks larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
A few more questions.Are you doing this stuff in place or in the shop?What are the ambient temps?If this is being done in your shop, do you allow the temps to fall "low" during the night?How long of a curing time between applying your nitro and then bumping it to get those white scratches/dings? Hours/days/weeks?Did you shoot a lacquer sanding sealer or a vinyl sealer under the nitro?Have you already shot cabs for the kitchen or bathroom with nitro?Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
i hope the family emerg turned out ok. anyway i'm doing all this in the house,between 60 70 degrees all the time. cabs and some trim in place before finish, with some door trim finished on sawhores and then installed. as far as marking it some of it i have marked with finish nailer next day, other stuff has dried 2,3,4 weeks and still seems to scratch very easy.i really have to watch the finish nailer that the safety arm doesn't mark the wood.if i do i can touch it up with a dob of clear and it looks fine,i'm just worried this is going to be a ongoing deal with touch up.you mention a vinyl sealer i'm not familiar with that ,is that a product i should be looking at ,where and when do you use it? at this point i have all of the kit. cabs, doors, door trim and window trim, haven't done the base boards and stair parts [ i did mention above that i went ahead today and shot the risers with poly, i had already put the lac. sealer on them,so i sanded them and put the poly on, did i screw up with the lac sealer?] i do still have all the cabinetry and trim to do in the master bath. all the trim and cabs look great i'm just concerned about the durability and if there is something i can change to make the rest of it a little more durable. if i do have to do some refinish on some of this what would you recommend to overcoat with, or just put another coat on of the s-w lac. [i don't have to worry about the dw waxing the cabs or anything like that,lol] thanks for all your help on this.i've just never done this much woodwork in a house [so far i've cut up about 1800 bd ft] and after all this time and effort i want to do what i can to make the finish nice thanks larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Always,
Thought you'd get a chuckle out of that. Here's a link to the best finishing forum on the web. You might want to post over there for some more feedback.
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/finishing.pl
Regards,
Jim
Always Over, Sorry about the delay. Finally got enough time here to get back to ya on this finishing stuff. I suspect that the reason you're having such marring problems with the nitro is that it simply isn't cured enough yet when you're asking it to resist (what I also suspect is) the metal nose on your finishing or brad gun. Nitro takes about 30 days to reach full cure and hardness. I can't usually wait that long either for trim finish to cure out so I have the nose of my brad gun padded with ####piece of heavy cloth tape. Elastikon is the brand name. Intended for wound dressing and such, you should be able to find it at any well-stocked pharmacy. Stuff is really sticky. Put it on and it'll last thru being submerged in water all day and/or for days on end of showers.etc. Can't be beat. Lasts for weeks on the gun nose and provides ample padding. As for using the lac sanding sealer under the poly……………….not really a good idea. You may suffer peeling finish after a while. You should always use the intended sanding sealer type for the finish you intend to put over it. And there is no such thing as a "special" sanding sealer for oil-based poly. If you see it labeled as such in the store, leave it there and simply take some of your OB poly and thin it out a bit to become the sanding sealer, cause that's all you'd be buying anyway. Either that or use Zinnser's SealCoat (dewaxed shellac) as your sanding sealer under the OB poly. Most finishes will work as their own sanding sealer. Just thin it a bit and put it on. Then sand it out when well dried. What makes most "sanding sealers" special is that they have lubricants in them to make sanding them a bit easier. These additives interfere with the adhesion of OB poly so it's not recommended that you use them in that application. Lacquer sanding sealers are relatively soft and don't have the same resistance to water, etc…….. as the nitro you're putting over the top. (Not that nitro is a very water resistant finish to begin with) Vinyl sealer is an alternative to use under lacquer as a sanding sealer because it's harder and more durable, but the flip side of that is that it's also harder to sand out. The facts that you used a lac sanding sealer (softish support under the nitro), a nitro over the top that was satin (IIRC) and are nailing it up in short order probably have all contributed to the marring. Stearates used to flatten the sheen generally add to the curing and hardeninng time. And then we move on the notion of using "overcoating/renewing" finishes over the existing in the future. Unfortunately, we can't just toss any old finish over the existing for the same incompatibility bonding problem reasons. That's why you're making a big decision when you choose your initial finish. Some finishes really shouldn't be or can't be overcoated reliably in the future. Or at the least, you're taking a chance of peeling finish. Cat-lacquers are notorious for this. If you're gonna attempt a switch in finish types during a recoat job, at the very least I'd suggest tossing a full wet coat of SealCoat in between the two....and then cross your fingers. Clean the surface well of course and scuff sand first. There is a finish that seems to make claims of being usable over most anything, but I have no real world experience with it as of yet. http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/Fuhrfinishes.htm Note - Product Series 3200 If you don't already own Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing", it would be an ideal place to start getting a further education on finishes in general. Money well spent providing you read it cover to cover (several times to grasp it all and sink it in your noggin) and understand the contents.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.Edited 2/23/2005 9:13 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 2/23/2005 9:17 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
dont forget the tub and tile
makes a great trim
an old "ditty" I heard years ago
carpenter carpenter
do your best
tub and tile
do the rest
Always,
I once had the identical problem. I'm sure this is not your problem but I'll throw it out there. Mine was that I had lost my head, once again, and wound up spraying sanding sealer as a finish coat by accident. Duh.
I'm also sure that you would have mixed you final coat thoroughly to get the flattener evenly distributed, so the only thing I can think of is that the SW mixing robot had some extra flattener that it dumped into your batch of material. Or, if you didn't buy it in 5 gal pails, that someone at SW didn't mix it well for previous customers, and you got the bottom.
Good luck,
jim
Edited 2/21/2005 8:34 pm ET by [email protected]
Edited 2/21/2005 8:35 pm ET by [email protected]
i bet after 4-5 coats of sanding sealer you could sure sand it smooth! we all have to do one of those kinda stunts once in awhile just to have something to laugh at. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.