Fireball in my face – wiring for dummies
Zadrunas
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I’m remodeling a bedroom and starting to rewire the outlets.
It’s metal conduit containing black, white, and blue wires. Blue wire has always been capped. I was connecting the new outlet, and thought blue was ground. It’s not the ground. Sparked up in my face and tripped a second breaker as I was connecting to the outlet. I’m not sure why there’d be a second breaker attached?
I’m obviously out of my league here, but if this is a quick fix, I’m hoping one of you all can help?
Thanks,
Andy
Replies
Someone planning for future devices but I don't remember Blue on a 110 line. After Black I thought Red was next. Blue was 3 phase I think. It's been a long time.
The second breaker that tripped is labeled "Appliance", if that helps. I believe it's the laundry.
It (the blue wire) must start at the CB panel.In EMT, anything can happen. Means nothing what it's labeled as. Could be something as simple as the wire was free. You know where it starts and ends. Now you just need to find out what, if anything, is in the middle.
Thank you both. I will recap and try to track it through. It's definitely powering something beside my fingertips. Gosh I'm a lucky idiot.
I rewired our previous house, and replaced the service myself.
A friend came over and checked it all out. He asked where I'd learned all this... Books I said.
He paused, held up his hands like he was reading a book and said, "Yeah, I guess books don't go 'NNNNNNGGGGGTTTTTTTGGGGHHTTT! ' (sound of electrocution) if you make a mistake!"
Just keep yourself OUT of the circuit and you'll be fine!"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing..."
that's what color who ever wired it had on hand...
the conduit is ground...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You can really use any color other than white, gray, or green for any "hot" or switched hot wire.There is a special color for high leg 3 phase, might be oragen. But for single phase it can be anything.Now for romex the wire comes with fixed colors bare, white, black, then red for xx-3. Don't know what the next color is for xx-4. And for switch legs and 3-ways the white is used for a hot, but remarked.In conduit you don't need to do that an another color is run and I think that blue is often used.But from the descrption is it neither.But rather a multiwire circuit (shared neutral) and apparently setup to allow something elect in that bathroom. Maybe a heater.I would have run red for that. But no requirement to do that..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
""You can really use any color other than white, gray, or green for any "hot" or switched hot wire."" Actually I have found out through some shocking experiences that people can and have used those colors for the "Hot" leads. One shouldn't, may be against code, but that never stopped a weekend warrior who either didn't know or didn't care.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Current code requires that switch legs, where the white is hot or a traveler, is suppose to be remared to be one of the "colors".From a discussion on another forum from someone that had some old code books, apparently the code used to have that requirement, then was drop, and now back again.And then you just have the plain screw ups. Switched neutrals is one..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
And you have those who pay no attention to code either out of ignorance of it or just plain ignorance. Color coding works fine for the person looking at the problem only as long as the installer followed the code. I have had two occasions in which the colors had absolutely no meaning. Both remodels in commercial buildings where whomever put the wiring in simply didn't know or care. shocking to say the least.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Ok, last question! I have metal conduit leading to first outlet. Can I add another outlet to the circuit with Romex and attach the Romex ground wire to the ground screw on the first outlet? The wires in the conduit appear to be 10 guage, the Romex is 14 gauge.
Or do I need to be using metal conduit for any added outlet as well?
You could use romex to extend the circuit if romex is allowed to be used in that application.If this is a "high rise" building romex is limited to how high you can go. I am not familar with that so I don't know the details.And certain local codes don't allow romex at ALL. Chicago and the surrounding area is famous for that. And also famous that all the home horror stores sell it although there is no legal place to use it.Now to your specific question. You can only use #14 wire to extend it if it is protected by a 15 amp breaker. "attach the Romex ground wire to the ground screw on the first outlet"Again this is an area that I am not that familar with. I know that is som circumstances that you can ground the receptacle via the mounting screws. But rather then figuring out when I can an can't I always run a pigtail to the box. And I am sure that it is not allowed to run ground wire off of the receptacle.Unless this is an old installation the box will have a hole tapped for a green ground screw. IIRC its 10-32.If there is no hole then you have to drill and tap it.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Great - thanks much! I need to grab the code book from the library for a while. It's on a 20 AMP breaker, so it appears 14/2 will not work. Hoping 12 will, but I'll double-check.
I'll also check my local codes re. Romex.
Thanks for the kick in the right direction.
#12 would be fine..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'm wiring a switch in the hall for attic lights that has an indicator light (will light when the attic lights are on). Ran romex 14-2 w/ground, black power feed to the switch and white (taped red) return feed to the lights. Now, the indicator has to have a neutral back to the junction box up in the attic. I'm thinking of just adding a single white thhn wire taped to the romex. The wire run is all in the wall and under the insulation to the not buried attic Jbox. But this may be a Sparky Sin. Probably should run 14-3, but do I really have to, considering that the white is a neutral?Thanks for the hijack.
Sorry Charlie..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The quick fix is to put the cap back on the blue wire. The conduit serves as ground if there's no separate ground wire.
Older circuits in metal conduit usually used the conduit for ground. Ground wires are either bare or green. White is always neutral. Most any other color can be used for hot. I have seen blue, yellow, orange in addition to the more common black and red.
Second breaker is there because the blue wire is another hot circuit, possibly on the other leg of the main bus, in which case you would have 240V across the black and blue wires and 120V across black/white and blue/white as well as from black or blue to the box or conduit (ground).
since it's in conduit it might even be a switch leg, is there a switch in your bedroom ?
almost all of the time a switch leg will be a different color than black or red to avoid confusion and indicate to the next guy it IS a switch leg.
I always used orange or yellow back when I was in residential and if I didn't have a color I would throw a wrap of color tape on it
No way to know unless you track it down!
also FWIW any ground in conduit will NOT be bare nor will it be Blue
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Blue was probably for future use. Cap it.
So in the future you won't assume anything now that you've had an unforgettable lesson. You're actually ahead now.
Cheap insurance is a voltage tester. With this you would have avoided the fireball.
To add to my stupidity, I actually had a voltage tester and tested the black and white after turning off the first circuit. Came black clean. Then I made the clearly erroneous assumption that blue was ground on the same circuit, and didn't bother testing blue.
I was feeling a little buzz before the fireball and I thought it must have been 'residual' electricity. I really did not think I was this stupid! Darwin awards and all that...
Thanks to all for the advice.
Edited 2/7/2008 4:17 pm ET by Zadrunas
Just for your info, there's no such thing as "residual" electricity in house wiring. If you feel a tingle it's hot! Let go while you have the chance!
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Don't feel too stupid - I did it too.
Yesterday I pulled wire to add a GFCI to a 1948 bathroom, doing a complete gut and remodel. Pulled the main and shut off power to the outside panel, I guess that would be the "main" now, since I added the new 200 amp panel outside, and fed the old 60 amp panel from that. Range, Water Heater, new C,H&A are on the outside panel.
So I wired it under the house and went to cut the romex to install the GFCI. GZZZZZT ! ! Not a fireball, but, well . . . not good.
Did I mention that this is a duplex ?
Yep, I picked a J-box that was hot from the other apartment. Oops !
Greg
Yeah, I've got a pair of electrician's pliers that didn't originally have a wire stripper notch in the cutter blades.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader